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 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 KplKeegan wrote:

 StormK wrote:
I think it's become clear that Helldrakes do unbalance the game because they are cheaper than other equivalently potent units, they have special rules and abilities that other fliers do not, they get hit only on sixes, require a str 7 or better weapon to penetrate, and can use "feel no pain" to negate any hits that finally penetrate.

What, what? No. That's utterly false.

No, it's not. The only entirely incorrect part is the cost. They have Vector Strike, which no other flying vehicle has. They only get hit on sixes, because they're fliers. It's AV12 so you do need a weapon with S7+ to penetrate. It has a 5++, which, while technically not FnP, is functionally equivalent in this example.

The Grey Knight Storm Raven is far more impressive then the Hell Chicken. Fortitude, the Aegis, Ceremite Plating, Transport, and an Assault Vehicle is far far more threatening. Especially if you carry a Librarian or relevant psyker than can cast Divinity or Telepathic powers.

 KplKeegan wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 KplKeegan wrote:

 StormK wrote:
I think it's become clear that Helldrakes do unbalance the game because they are cheaper than other equivalently potent units, they have special rules and abilities that other fliers do not, they get hit only on sixes, require a str 7 or better weapon to penetrate, and can use "feel no pain" to negate any hits that finally penetrate.

What, what? No. That's utterly false.

No, it's not. The only entirely incorrect part is the cost. They have Vector Strike, which no other flying vehicle has. They only get hit on sixes, because they're fliers. It's AV12 so you do need a weapon with S7+ to penetrate. It has a 5++, which, while technically not FnP, is functionally equivalent in this example.

The Grey Knight Storm Raven is far more impressive then the Hell Chicken. Fortitude, the Aegis, Ceremite Plating, Transport, and an Assault Vehicle is far far more threatening. Especially if you carry a Librarian or relevant psyker than can cast Divinity or Telepathic powers.

LOL. A plain-jane Storm Chicken is 35 points more expensive than a Heldrake and doesn't pack near the same raw killing potential, even with hurricane sponsons a SR is unlikely to cause as much damage to most units because cover can easily be taken. Using a Storm Raven as an assault vehicle is an incredibly risky proposition because if it dies, the unit occupying it has a very high chance of dying as well. This is called putting too many eggs in one basket and I'd generally say it's a bad thing. Keep in mind that the Heldrake has daemonic possession, which isn't far off from fortitude. If SR's were anywhere near as good as Heldrakes, you'd see every GK player fumbling to pack 2-3 in all of their lists, that simply doesn't happen because the SR is an overpriced flyer that is outclassed by many of its peers (Drakes, Vendettas, possibly Scythes).


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 KplKeegan wrote:

 StormK wrote:

Do you read your codex at all? Rifleman Dreads, Razorbacks, and Predators are good counters against the illusive, metallic chicken.

Do you play 40k? Three Riflemen average close to 4 STR.7 hits, this means you are likely to get 1 glance or pen, 1 glance or pen is very unlikely to kill a Heldrake since only a hard 6 destroys it, the Drake ignores 50% of the results you get with a pen and a glance simply removes a HP (the Drake also has a 5+ invuln and IWND to regain any HPs lost to glances). Allocating that many resources to destroy ONE enemy unit is a recipe for disaster, especially since the opposing player will not simply have 3 Heldrakes. A good CSM list will overload you with threats meaning that you will have to eat the torrent flamer every turn and try your hardest to ignore the Heldrake, or waste so many resources attempting to kill it that the rest of the CSM list eats you.

 KplKeegan wrote:

 StormK wrote:

Do you read your codex at all? Rifleman Dreads, Razorbacks, and Predators are good counters against the illusive, metallic chicken.

Do you play 40k? Three Riflemen average close to 4 STR.7 hits, this means you are likely to get 1 glance or pen, 1 glance or pen is very unlikely to kill a Heldrake since only a hard 6 destroys it, the Drake ignores 50% of the results you get with a pen and a glance simply removes a HP (the Drake also has a 5+ invuln and IWND to regain any HPs lost to glances). Allocating that many resources to destroy ONE enemy unit is a recipe for disaster, especially since the opposing player will not simply have 3 Heldrakes. A good CSM list will overload you with threats meaning that you will have to eat the torrent flamer every turn and try your hardest to ignore the Heldrake, or waste so many resources attempting to kill it that the rest of the CSM list eats you.

Thank you.
Allocating and planning my list around the possibility of Helldrakes is ridiculous. If I have to spend that many points to counter a unit that costs 170 pts, that unit is broke. My 170 pts should be equal to my opponents 170 pts. THEN it becomes a game where unit selection, strategic thinking, and good planning can help you win.
In a game of rock, paper, scissors your opponent cannot point his finger at you and shout "GUN!" Without it being clear that he was cheating. 40k, however, seems to be all about finding the gun-of-the-week...

Granted, I don't think Heldrakes are unbeatable. However, I think for their threat level they are far too durable. I also think the entire Flyer mechanic was poorly conceived with little to no concern for older armies who don't have access to "anti-flyer" weaponry.

It is certainly a bit faulty to look at the game on a points equality basis, however in the case of a Heldrake or any other AV12 flyer, it is absurd was most armies must allocate to ensure destruction. This wouldnt be a huge issue if the plane were only carrying a destructor, or assault cannon, but a torrent AP3 STR 6 flamer is something that is damn near impossible to "ignore" or shrug off.

LValx wrote:
Granted, I don't think Heldrakes are unbeatable. However, I think for their threat level they are far too durable. I also think the entire Flyer mechanic was poorly conceived with little to no concern for older armies who don't have access to "anti-flyer" weaponry.

It is certainly a bit faulty to look at the game on a points equality basis, however in the case of a Heldrake or any other AV12 flyer, it is absurd was most armies must allocate to ensure destruction. This wouldnt be a huge issue if the plane were only carrying a destructor, or assault cannon, but a torrent AP3 STR 6 flamer is something that is damn near impossible to "ignore" or shrug off.

They should have made flak rockets strength 8 and available to all rocket launchers without extra costs even for old codex. Problem solved

LValx wrote:
Granted, I don't think Heldrakes are unbeatable. However, I think for their threat level they are far too durable. I also think the entire Flyer mechanic was poorly conceived with little to no concern for older armies who don't have access to "anti-flyer" weaponry.

100% true. So many problems in the current meta are due to poorly designed flyer rules, undercosted vendettas, and older codexes that are now yet another step behind with no way to deal with flyers.


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Cyberian wrote:


They should have made flak rockets strength 8 and available to all rocket launchers without extra costs even for old codex. Problem solved

and then no one would take flyers. They would be a dumb addition to the game if no one used them.
you would only see missile lanchers on heavy weapons squads and Long Fangs would again be seen all over the place. Not a solution.

That said, the 10 point upgrade is too much. 5 points on top of the missile launcher would be enough for str7. Also make frag missiles ignore cover if you have the flakk upgrade.


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LValx wrote:

It is certainly a bit faulty to look at the game on a points equality basis, however in the case of a Heldrake or any other AV12 flyer, it is absurd was most armies must allocate to ensure destruction. This wouldnt be a huge issue if the plane were only carrying a destructor, or assault cannon, but a torrent AP3 STR 6 flamer is something that is damn near impossible to "ignore" or shrug off.

any AV12 vehicle can ignore them, anything with a 2+ save can ignore them. Multiwounded well space models can ignore them. Things with invunerable saves can ignore them. Cheap units can ignore them. They happen to be very good at killing expensive 3+ save dudes huddling close together in ruins. Sorry your long fangs now have a counter.

 Exergy wrote:
[any AV12 vehicle can ignore them, anything with a 2+ save can ignore them. Multiwounded well space models can ignore them. Things with invunerable saves can ignore them. Cheap units can ignore them. They happen to be very good at killing expensive 3+ save dudes huddling close together in ruins. Sorry your long fangs now have a counter.

This...

Helldrakes eat MEQ for lunch. My friend plays drop-pod wolves and his army evaporates to dual helldrakes. Hes losing 2 squads a turn to the helldrakes, and its over quickly and painfully.

Another friend plays orks. My helldrakes are reduced to going after lootas. Attacking spaced out boys is near useless.

I have had mixed results with them.
Chaos deamons that have 2 flyers often pop them since they usually arrive after and ds behind them for that juicy rear 10. Against bog standard meq's they can do decent damage if you get good flight paths over the troops (but then you expose that rear to any t-l str 7 weapons and you are in trouble).

Also these guys are still 170pts which can get you a good pred with change for.

You wanna talk cheesey flame weapons then look at 2 x DS'ing tzeentch flamer units at 69pts for 6 wounds which are almost always doing the same (if not more) tactical hits because they are dropping where you want them.

 Exergy wrote:

LValx wrote:
Granted, I don't think Heldrakes are unbeatable. However, I think for their threat level they are far too durable. I also think the entire Flyer mechanic was poorly conceived with little to no concern for older armies who don't have access to "anti-flyer" weaponry.

100% true. So many problems in the current meta are due to poorly designed flyer rules, undercosted vendettas, and older codexes that are now yet another step behind with no way to deal with flyers.

Except the players who've played with them in the past before they were inducted into the BRB, which is why this thread seems laughable to me. At least you're not subtracting 6" from your ranges like in the Forgeworld Rules.

While the Codex' lack Co-Axial Rules (or Sky Fire Weaponry), twin-linked weapons do just fine. You guys are making a mountain out of a hill here.

Also SM players complaining about CSM getting a unit that.can toast a tactically important unit the turn it arrives should remember they get drop pod sternguard. Yes expensive but they generally are guarenteed to kill what you sent it to kill on the turn you sent it. I would have loved to get tactically superior drop pods over hulk smash dinobots but thems the breaks.

 Exergy wrote:

LValx wrote:
Granted, I don't think Heldrakes are unbeatable. However, I think for their threat level they are far too durable. I also think the entire Flyer mechanic was poorly conceived with little to no concern for older armies who don't have access to "anti-flyer" weaponry.

100% true. So many problems in the current meta are due to poorly designed flyer rules, undercosted vendettas, and older codexes that are now yet another step behind with no way to deal with flyers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Cyberian wrote:


They should have made flak rockets strength 8 and available to all rocket launchers without extra costs even for old codex. Problem solved

and then no one would take flyers. They would be a dumb addition to the game if no one used them.
you would only see missile lanchers on heavy weapons squads and Long Fangs would again be seen all over the place. Not a solution.

That said, the 10 point upgrade is too much. 5 points on top of the missile launcher would be enough for str7. Also make frag missiles ignore cover if you have the flakk upgrade.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

LValx wrote:

It is certainly a bit faulty to look at the game on a points equality basis, however in the case of a Heldrake or any other AV12 flyer, it is absurd was most armies must allocate to ensure destruction. This wouldnt be a huge issue if the plane were only carrying a destructor, or assault cannon, but a torrent AP3 STR 6 flamer is something that is damn near impossible to "ignore" or shrug off.

any AV12 vehicle can ignore them, anything with a 2+ save can ignore them. Multiwounded well space models can ignore them. Things with invunerable saves can ignore them. Cheap units can ignore them. They happen to be very good at killing expensive 3+ save dudes huddling close together in ruins. Sorry your long fangs now have a counter.

I agree with some of this, but disagree with some of the other stuff. Av12 cannot easily ignore them (most av12 would be guard vehicles which have AV10 side armor, even Preds have to fear the Heldrake's vector). Some of these points also ignore the state of the game. Vehicles aren't quite as good as they once were and infantry is the name of the game. The Heldrake excels at killing all infantry models because it denies cover. 2+ saves are decent enough but you cannot with a straight face tell me that you actually think 2+ save based armies are viable in today's 40k. TEQ are simply overcosted for what they do. The other issue with the Drake is that it simply gets better and better as the game drags on, the ability to target 2 different squads and statistically kill 3-4 models from each is HUGE during the end game. I cannot count how many times I've faced Drakes that single-handedly beat me by frying my back-field scorers after they'd been whittled down.

TL units do not do enough damage to reliably down Drakes. Once again, even 3 Riflemen (one of the gold standards for cheap TL weaponry) struggle to damage 1 Drake, nevertheless three.

The best unit I can think of to ignore Drakes with is probably Wraiths. But Wraiths now have their own problems with the surplus of anti-infantry firepower that is standard in the game nowadays.


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Zanderchief wrote:
Also SM players complaining about CSM getting a unit that.can toast a tactically important unit the turn it arrives should remember they get drop pod sternguard. Yes expensive but they generally are guarenteed to kill what you sent it to kill on the turn you sent it. I would have loved to get tactically superior drop pods over hulk smash dinobots but thems the breaks.

Pure silliness, you'd rather have a unit that costs 50% more, is less durable and less flexible? Suit yourself. I guarantee you my 3 Heldrakes will carry more weight over the course of an event than your two Sternguard squads.

I find my Friends Heldrake to be more of an annoyance than an actual Threat to most of my units... of course, the fact they get back up kinda helps there...

I have also managed to bring down the turkey in a single turn of shooting before, withg a single Flyer.

I have also done the same with several Vendettas, and a couple of DakkaJets. I also know htat it shouldnt Mathhammermatically happen, but Its just luck isnt it in the end? Luck and Chance

TL units do not do enough damage to reliably down Drakes. Once again, even 3 Riflemen (one of the gold standards for cheap TL weaponry) struggle to damage 1 Drake, nevertheless three.

Well it stands to reason that it would take 4-5 rifleman dreads to kill a hell drake. If you prescribe to the idea that a unit will make up its point value over the course of a game. If lets say for an example that the dreadnought costs 125pts then to achieve its goal of equaling out it needs to kill 125pts of the enemy. This is a very simplistic way of looking at a units value but nontheless. If a standard game lasts about 5 turns, then each turn the dreadnought needs to kill 25pts of the enemy. So if achieving 5 turns of shooting thats 20shots so against flyers thats 6 hits or so and one glance one pen, so a chance of killing the drake. Now if you want to get it done in one turn then you need to multiply the number of dreads to do it. And again thats comparing a dreadnought that is inefficient at killing the drake and costs less, so actually killing the drake would be above its pay grade.

A drake by comparison needs to kill about 10 marines to make up its own considerable cost. if careful you can ensure it only gets 3-4 with each flame gout, thus meaning it needs about 3 turns to make up its own cost. Since it cant come in until at least turn 2 this makes some sense as it only will get about 3-4 turns to affect the game.

Again this is all pretty simplistic. Some units are better suited to scoring their points faster or in lumps and then dying... the aforementioned sternguard in pod drop in and nuke something. If there isnt an expensive enough target in the oposing army then they often dont make up their points cost as they only have one turn to do work.

For a riflemen to average a dead Heldrake would take 8+ turns of shooting. While model spacing certainly helps vs drakes, in action it is difficult to consistently make sure all models are well spaced. Another issue is the vector + flame which means the drake is killing 2-4 models from 2 units. The flexibility to hover is also very nice. Once again, I have beaten them before but it is certainly an uphill battle for MEQ armies to beat a Heldrake heavy force. For it's points I find it to be a bit too good (mostly due to the FAQ).

LValx wrote:
I agree with some of this, but disagree with some of the other stuff. Av12 cannot easily ignore them (most av12 would be guard vehicles which have AV10 side armor, even Preds have to fear the Heldrake's vector). Some of these points also ignore the state of the game. Vehicles aren't quite as good as they once were and infantry is the name of the game. The Heldrake excels at killing all infantry models because it denies cover. 2+ saves are decent enough but you cannot with a straight face tell me that you actually think 2+ save based armies are viable in today's 40k. TEQ are simply overcosted for what they do. The other issue with the Drake is that it simply gets better and better as the game drags on, the ability to target 2 different squads and statistically kill 3-4 models from each is HUGE during the end game. I cannot count how many times I've faced Drakes that single-handedly beat me by frying my back-field scorers after they'd been whittled down.

And THIS is why I've been looking at bringing 3 land raiders for my CSM troops. Stick a troop choice in a land raider and its immune to the threat of a drake. You have until turn 5 to drop them off, and by then you have had time to whittle down enemy fire, or let the drakes fly overhead.

No. I said i would have preferred drop pods. Which you can put many things in. So tactically (which is what i said i would prefer) it beats having most of the new dinodudes. Also 5 man sterns with 3xcombi-melta and drop pod is 175pts... 5pts more and will pop a tank. True they are more vunerable but they already did their job if they take out the threat (and on turn 1).

Heldrakes rely on getting in on turn 2 then having badly placed meq to shoot at.

Still my point was that tactically i would have prefered DPods to dinos

I'm not sure how good it is to spend 175 pts to kill a tank. And with the 3x melta you are not assured to kill it.

But that is the thing about DP sterngaurd... Not a heavy target to shoot at? Drop them at the back and use them as a dangerous counter. They (due to the DPod and very versatile guns) can do a bit of both.


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I am saying if the tank (say a vindi) is the problem unit then go at it. This whole getting the points back arguement misses this fact often. Yeah you didn't kill the exact or more points value but you gone f'd up the other players game.

The reason Marine players hate heldrakes is that they can not counter them without resorting to allies (specifically IG) or shooting themselves in the foot against other lists.

Bringing flyers of one's own? Even a LC/MM SR is only going to average .6 HP per turn against a Heldrake. In other words, it's effectively useless at stopping a Heldrake from removing your troops from the board. That's where the rubber meets the road when it comes to flyer defense. If your AA cannot prevent the enemy's flyers from killing your troops, they are a failure, and you have wasted points.

Bringing metal boxes? Sure, that'll save you from the Heldrake. But how about when you play against Vendettas or the Necron Air Force? To beat those you need foot lists. But running a foot list means getting burnt to a crisp by heldrakes. Marines on their own are effectively forced to allow one of these two strategies to destroy them.

IG Allies? If the game reaches a point where one has to ally with a specific army in order to survive against a single specific unit, people are fully justified in crying cheese.

Bringing metal boxes will not save you from Helldrakes either.

You might live a bit longer, but Helldrake can just Vector Strike the rhino/razorbak, causing on average 3 S7 hits, which will do 1 pen and half glance. This means that against 2 Helldrakes, you're looking at losing some ~1.5 transports per turn and those embarking troops will be nicely clumped, doubling or tripling the effectiviness of baleflamer.

 Exergy wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 KplKeegan wrote:

 StormK wrote:
I think it's become clear that Helldrakes do unbalance the game because they are cheaper than other equivalently potent units, they have special rules and abilities that other fliers do not, they get hit only on sixes, require a str 7 or better weapon to penetrate, and can use "feel no pain" to negate any hits that finally penetrate.

What, what? No. That's utterly false.

No, it's not. The only entirely incorrect part is the cost. They have Vector Strike, which no other flying vehicle has. They only get hit on sixes, because they're fliers. It's AV12 so you do need a weapon with S7+ to penetrate. It has a 5++, which, while technically not FnP, is functionally equivalent in this example.

they can vector strike at str7, like a MC
so they are only hit on 6s, unless you have skyfire, like every other flyer in the game
they have AV12, like the Stormravens, valkries, and vendettas.
they have a 5++, daemonforge and IWND, which no other flyer has but 3 other vehicles have (maulerfiend, defiler, and forgefiend) All of those are OP because of their 5++ right? Also DE can get 5++ on their vehicles for 10 points. Clearly it is super powerful.
If all those traits are that good, why arent heldrakes with Hades autocannons OP?

I don't know, and I don't really care. You stated an absolute statement, I refuted that statement.

OrdoSean wrote:


Well it stands to reason that it would take 4-5 rifleman dreads to kill a hell drake. If you prescribe to the idea that a unit will make up its point value over the course of a game. If lets say for an example that the dreadnought costs 125pts then to achieve its goal of equaling out it needs to kill 125pts of the enemy. This is a very simplistic way of looking at a units value but nontheless. If a standard game lasts about 5 turns, then each turn the dreadnought needs to kill 25pts of the enemy. So if achieving 5 turns of shooting thats 20shots so against flyers thats 6 hits or so and one glance one pen, so a chance of killing the drake. Now if you want to get it done in one turn then you need to multiply the number of dreads to do it. And again thats comparing a dreadnought that is inefficient at killing the drake and costs less, so actually killing the drake would be above its pay grade.

A drake by comparison needs to kill about 10 marines to make up its own considerable cost. if careful you can ensure it only gets 3-4 with each flame gout, thus meaning it needs about 3 turns to make up its own cost. Since it cant come in until at least turn 2 this makes some sense as it only will get about 3-4 turns to affect the game.

Again this is all pretty simplistic. Some units are better suited to scoring their points faster or in lumps and then dying... the aforementioned sternguard in pod drop in and nuke something. If there isnt an expensive enough target in the oposing army then they often dont make up their points cost as they only have one turn to do work.

How many points is claiming an objective worth? The game isn't just about killing things.

You can't claim an objective without scoring units.

Has anyone tried the Contemptor pattern Mortis Dreadnought as an AA choice? I was thinking the BS of 5 and 2 Kheres Assault cannons that's 12 shots with the AA mount special rule if it is stationary. But Kheres is a S6 weapon so it would have to get the Helldrake in the rear armor...

 StormK wrote:
Has anyone tried the Contemptor pattern Mortis Dreadnought as an AA choice? I was thinking the BS of 5 and 2 Kheres Assault cannons that's 12 shots with the AA mount special rule if it is stationary. But Kheres is a S6 weapon so it would have to get the Helldrake in the rear armor...

The Kheres, like normal Assault Cannons, is rending.

An individual Heldrake is not an issue, Ive found. Being swiftly dealt with by either my plasma CCS (BiD!) or my vendetta. It does however get problematic when there are multiples. Whilst the unit itself is a bit nutty, I find its still relatively balanced considering its one very powerful unit in an otherwise very balanced codex. Remember that Heldrakes alone dont win games, its the boots on the ground. Sometimes just knuckling down and weathering the storm can be enough to pull the win.

In low points games, I can see multiple drakes being a huge problem, but not in bigger games where you have the points to make dedicated AA.

Are you saying that as an IG player?

Because (and I don't mean to be rude, so please don't misinterpret) if so, then I cannot take such a statement seriously. A single Heldrake can wipe out a 5 man squad of marines in one turn. Few people bring more than 30 scoring models, which means that in only 3 turns a single Heldrake can wipe out half of a marine player's scoring models. Double heldrakes will leave him with none at all unless he has dedicated flyer defense (and even then, he won't have enough left to win the game). And this is ignoring the fact that almost no marine army currently has cost-effective defenses to flyers outside of FW (quad-guns don't qualify because they can only counter a single flyer at a time, and you can only have one).

IG don't fear heldrakes because their troops are priced around the assumption that they will die by the droves. Marines are priced under the assumption that they will stick around. What heldrakes do to marines is the equivalent of what tactical marines would do to Guardsmen if they could only be hit by lasguns on a 6, had jump packs, and automatically performed a sweeping advance in every assault (win or lose).

I once pondered whether or not 6th edition was going to be the anti-marine edition. I'm now all but certain of it. Even DAs with their 5 man tactical squads with flakk missiles for 95 points can only expect to inflict a pathetic 0.15 hull points per turn each against heldrakes (and that's before IWND).

I understand the fear that MEQs have of the heldrake, but in my own experiences, even if the drake vectors my chimeras open and vaporises the squad inside, its still not too difficult to recuperate from. I only run forty scoring models in my 1k list, and Ive had a single drake knock out 25 in 3 turns before, including transport, and my regular opponent runs two drakes at 1k. Granted, I do take more troops than MEQ, but not that many. And to reiterate my earlier point, in smaller games, yes the drake can be devestating, but in larger games where options are more plentiul due to the multitude of points available, the heldrake is more of an annoyance, unless someone brings and apoc force of nothing but lc havoks and heldrakes.

Guys, think that all this thread is all about: oh, my, Helldrake is so awesome. I think you must not. In one of the articles in White Dwarf was speeach about cost of Striking Scorpions in Tau army. They must be 30 pts per model for Tau, but 20 pts for Khorne Army CSM. My own helldrake DIES every game after first turn. I, myself, killed enemies Vendettas every turn with obliterators, or just push them off board, becose they need to Evade to live.
I LOL to hear from c:sm players that Helldrake is cheese. Guys, take 6*5 marines in your razorbacks with twin-linked lcannon (God, how i WANT RAZORBACKS!!!), take 6 gakking tiphoon speeders!!! Overal firepower from this units will bring ANY flier to ground without great loss.
I play twise per month with my close friends. And this is hard for my CSM gunline army becose they bring IG with 2 vendettas, or GK with tons of firepower and i can tell you, just simple poper use of your own army can help a lot.

 StormK wrote:
Has anyone tried the Contemptor pattern Mortis Dreadnought as an AA choice? I was thinking the BS of 5 and 2 Kheres Assault cannons that's 12 shots with the AA mount special rule if it is stationary. But Kheres is a S6 weapon so it would have to get the Helldrake in the rear armor...

24" range and it has to remain stationary to gain skyfire. Flyers can usually avoid your dread.

The 12 str6 shots are awesome, just not nessisarrily as an AA option.