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LValx wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Why are you assuming 1 Vendetta vs 3 Heldrakes? That's just a mind boggling comparison.

Because the armies who really fear Drakes can only grab one. I suppose you can squadron them, but I think that is a bad decision.

Putting troops in Vendettas is fine, Stormraven can be quite a bit riskier as a little bad luck could see the squad inside dead pretty easily. Guard don't have too much of an issue with Heldrakes, cheap troops, good and cheap air defense helps quite a bit. The real issue is that SW, BA, GK, SM, BT and DA all have a helluva a time facing lists with 2-3 Drakes, the Drake is just a little too good. Super fast, Str. 6 AP3 torrent flamers that can rotate 360 should not exist.

why is squadroning them a bad idea? They are super cheap. I would have thought that 2 would be standard.

SW can put 2+ wolfguard in their GH packs
GK can have terminator troops and have stormravens in addition to vendettas
DA can have terminator troops
SM have stormtalons in addition to vendettas
BA have storm ravens in addition to vendettas

BT are screwed, their codex is ancient. Think Tau and CWE have an easy time in 6th either?

It is funny that you didnt mention CSM, CSM have trouble with drakes as well.

I think squadrons of 2 Vendettas are troublesome, they take up a big footprint and the immobility of flyers combined with a squadron makes them somewhat unwieldly. A squadron of two helps, but they can still only target 1 Drake at a time and if you've played with Flyers you understand that their movement restrictions make it difficult to pick your targets as you want. Not to mention if the CSM player goes second he could possibly vector strike the Vendettas 2-3 times and still throw out the flamer. There is a reason why even good players such as Gilstrap view the Drake as such a ridiculous unit, they are in fact quite ridiculous.

CSM's best troops are, IMO, Cultists, which are so cheap that I would say they don't really fear Drakes.
I also believe that terminators are overpriced and while they may do well vs. Heldrakes, they fare poorly versus Daemons and hordes, both of which have gotten a big boost with 6th.
I have tried out the TEQ WG attached to the GH squads and it doesn't help that much because Heldrakes are mobile enough to force you to kill off the MEQs first.
Storm Talons are awful at killing Drakes.

I really don't think the available defense measures outweigh the offensive capabilities of a Heldrake. I think out of all the Flyers in the game, the Heldrake is the most threatening against the widest variety of lists. Beastpacks fear them, Eldar/DE in generally fear them, Nid's fear them (Vectors ignoring cover is brutal and Flyrants can be shredded by them), Daemons fear them because they are mobile enough and hardy enough to harass troops with no fear of retaliation, MEQs fear them for obvious reasons, Orks fear them (Lootas get crapped on by Drakes), Tau suits get shredded by them, etc.

The other problem with the Heldrake is that the more you invest in expensive defense options (SRs are super expensive and allying guard comes with a price as well), the weaker you are to hordes and Daemons, both of which are very viable. If you've invested 400+ pts of your 1850 list into anti-Heldrake, you will have a hard time beating a list that chooses to "ignore" the Drake and simply field a critical mass of bodies, a la Tony Kopach's SW list. Vendettas nor SRs offer very good anti-infantry capabilities relative to their costs. This isn't all the fault of the Heldrake, 6th edition in general seems to be an edition of extremes that makes it difficult to build a truly balanced TAC list, but the Heldrake certainly made it much more difficult. Foot lists like Gonyo's GK and Kopach's SW strike me as lists that would have to revamp themselves in a very big way in order to beat lists featuring Drakes in multiples.

I haven't faced a unit that gave me as much pause as the Heldrake. Screamers and Flamers are close, but the Drake scares me more.

 Exergy wrote:
It is funny that you didnt mention CSM, CSM have trouble with drakes as well.

That's true. That's why I'm looking at bringing triple land raiders and/or cultist swarm for my CSM builds.

It gives me less points, but lets me protect the troops while I deal with the drakes/enemy forces.

 labmouse42 wrote:

 Exergy wrote:
It is funny that you didnt mention CSM, CSM have trouble with drakes as well.

That's true. That's why I'm looking at bringing triple land raiders and/or cultist swarm for my CSM builds.

It gives me less points, but lets me protect the troops while I deal with the drakes/enemy forces.

Cultists at maxed coherency dont care too much about a Drake, you'll lose like 16 pts of models to the flamer. I'd not be too stressed about that.

LValx wrote:

 labmouse42 wrote:

 Exergy wrote:
It is funny that you didnt mention CSM, CSM have trouble with drakes as well.

That's true. That's why I'm looking at bringing triple land raiders and/or cultist swarm for my CSM builds.

It gives me less points, but lets me protect the troops while I deal with the drakes/enemy forces.

Cultists at maxed coherency dont care too much about a Drake, you'll lose like 16 pts of models to the flamer. I'd not be too stressed about that.

cultists are pretty meh. Cost more than IG infantry for much worse. You lose 16 pts worth of them and they are likely to run off the board. If you are streching out to be at max coherency then you are probably out of cover and can get shot by bolters or lasguns and take a break check that way.

If "oh chaos has cultists means that they dont need to fear heldrakes" then "oh marines can take IG squad allies, infantry squads are great, they dont need to worry about heldrakes"

Yeah, the problem is that one unit damn near forces you to take the allies. I dont think that is good for the game. But I would say that all MEQ armies HAVE to take guard to be competitive.

 Exergy wrote:
cultists are pretty meh. Cost more than IG infantry for much worse. You lose 16 pts worth of them and they are likely to run off the board. If you are streching out to be at max coherency then you are probably out of cover and can get shot by bolters or lasguns and take a break check that way.

If "oh chaos has cultists means that they dont need to fear heldrakes" then "oh marines can take IG squad allies, infantry squads are great, they dont need to worry about heldrakes"

Cultists require a babysitter. Either they need Typhus to make them all automatons, or they need to have a fearless IC in them to make them decent.

You will need to lose more than 4 of them to force LD checks if you have 35 of them, but the core of Exergy's point is accurate. Cultists don't have any dakka/choppa potentional.

I like Cultists a lot, personally. the LD is an issue but you can have 20 for 90 Pts, that is pretty nice for a unit that just needs to score. And GTG behind aegis is hilarious with them.

LValx wrote:
Yeah, the problem is that one unit damn near forces you to take the allies. I dont think that is good for the game. But I would say that all MEQ armies HAVE to take guard to be competitive.

<RANT>
I hope this is never true. I Despise IG allies. I think it is a quick and easy stop gap for people who don't want to actually learn how to play their lists. I don't want to bring this forum on a tangent so I'll stop... but I hate the fact that every other forum entry is like "just take guard allies" to answer everything. The IG are the whores of the galaxy now. They apparently don't function in armies, only in small groups of dudes with vendettas in tow, who are just looking for a strong general to lead them... LAME.

I don't hate allies as a whole, but when the blanket answer for everything is "Take some IG allies" - then people aren't thinking hard enough. They're not putting effort in they're just looking for the next quick fix. That bothers me.
</RANT>

Please understand I'm not targeting any one in particular, I'm targeting that train of thought, so please do not take offense.

The math dictates that Vendettas are necessary. There are no clever schemes against AV 12 fliers with 360 flamestorm cannons if you are running an meq list. It's even worse for TAC lists. How much anti flier? How many allied Vendettas?

I have to agree. " take allies" is not the answer for someone who prefers a themed army, or who has put a lot of thought into creating their own chapter of SM. While most answers in this thread have been of the "deal-with-it"/"stop whining"/"just take allies" variety, there have been some good strategic thoughts on controlling the movements of a Helldrake. Next time I play against Helldrakes I plan on using these strategies and reporting here how I did...

Movement is the best you can do if you go straight MEQ, measure out trajectories and try to block them off.

 Kugel wrote:

reaper with no name wrote:

 Kugel wrote:
Guys, think that all this thread is all about: oh, my, Helldrake is so awesome. I think you must not. In one of the articles in White Dwarf was speeach about cost of Striking Scorpions in Tau army. They must be 30 pts per model for Tau, but 20 pts for Khorne Army CSM. My own helldrake DIES every game after first turn. I, myself, killed enemies Vendettas every turn with obliterators, or just push them off board, becose they need to Evade to live.
I LOL to hear from c:sm players that Helldrake is cheese. Guys, take 6*5 marines in your razorbacks with twin-linked lcannon (God, how i WANT RAZORBACKS!!!), take 6 gakking tiphoon speeders!!! Overal firepower from this units will bring ANY flier to ground without great loss.
I play twise per month with my close friends. And this is hard for my CSM gunline army becose they bring IG with 2 vendettas, or GK with tons of firepower and i can tell you, just simple poper use of your own army can help a lot.

You're kidding, right?

TL lascannons will only inflict .15 HP of damage against a heldrake. 6 of them will inflict .88 HP. You just spent 450 points to do less than 1 HP per turn against a single heldrake. It's effectively worthless.

That's why i call this thread dumb. Not people dumb to participate in it, but the theme of talks is dumb. Do you play karate-by-email? Single lcannon shot have a chance to bring down Fliyer. By building proper army list and by using it properly you nulify the awesomeness of Drake. One lcannon shot is not an answer, but six of them is. Plus any other shots you can do. I did shoot down necron fliers with my plasma chosen, but if i told you they ARE an answer to threat of fliyers, you will call me an idiot, and you will be right.

Good points by Kugel here. It's important to remember that you don't always need hard counters-- in many cases, soft counters are sufficient. Twin-linked autocannons, lascannons, and railguns represent effective soft counters against many flyer-based armies.

Also, engaging in CC help a lot as well. I know this is based on your list and such, but the units locked in combat cannot get flamed or vector struck.

As good as the heldrake is... it can only be effective for a limited amount of time. I know this is old news based on all flyers, but it is something to remember.

When I take both of my drakes, I have to take into consideration that I have 340 points up in the air... those things better be effective or else I have wasted a LOT of points.

 Snappenthetwig wrote:
Hyperios air defence batteries. They tear through Helldrakes and any other flyers with ease try them. Hyperios pattern Whirlwinds and Landraiders work well to.

How many points is a battery? I've been thinking of getting the FW models cause I could field them as a battery or use them with Whirlwinds (which are mentioned in Marines Malevolent fluff and would fit my theme).

Martel732 wrote:
Actually, I feel that the xenos did get somewhat better in 6th. Regrouping down at 25%, etc. Different thread, though.

I agree, my Lootas mobs of 8 still test at their amazing Ld of seven with only 2 left on the board. Regardless, 40K is still SM's and a bunch of other stuff on the side to make them look better. Xenos are quite literally the Generals to SM's Globetrooterawesomenesstimesathousand.

I have to disagree with you there. The IG and Necrons are up there with the GK and SW as armies to beat. I guess IG aren't xenos, but still they aren't marines. ATSKNF doesn't mean a thing if you're straight up dead.

I think as a whole 6e has made it harder to break an enemy to the point of victory with LD tests. Being able to always regroup, regroup at its ld value with an IC (even if less than 25%), can't be escorted off the table, fearless is more prevelant, stubborn now with the DA, and of course ATSKNF.... unless someone gunlines near their table edge... It's almost impossible to break a unit off the table.

Back on topic:

I think this edition, so far, is HUGELY based on movement. I have only played my Eldar Skimmer/Jetbike list a few times against armies with flyers, but I have noticed it is much easier to mitigate the damage inflicted by flyers when you have an extremely mobile force. I'm able to essentially fly under enemy flyers or skirt out of their tunring radius.

I know these are not the "fix all" solutions, but the more I think about it, the more I really think Kingsley put it best:

Kingsley wrote:
It's important to remember that you don't always need hard counters-- in many cases, soft counters are sufficient. Twin-linked autocannons, lascannons, and railguns represent effective soft counters against many flyer-based armies.

I would add mobility to that list.

I'll go even further to say that the lists with more "soft counters" are better lists. It is harder to prioritize against their lists, as there is no obvious "gotta kill that" units... instead you have many threats, which are all relatively equal. This is why I usually love to fight against deathstar lists, as you know exactly what unit is going to do the damage right away, but a more balanced list may hit you with a jab to knock you out instead of the hay-maker.... but I suppose this is all theoryhammer and list building.

 labmouse42 wrote:

 Exergy wrote:
cultists are pretty meh. Cost more than IG infantry for much worse. You lose 16 pts worth of them and they are likely to run off the board. If you are streching out to be at max coherency then you are probably out of cover and can get shot by bolters or lasguns and take a break check that way.

If "oh chaos has cultists means that they dont need to fear heldrakes" then "oh marines can take IG squad allies, infantry squads are great, they dont need to worry about heldrakes"

Cultists require a babysitter. Either they need Typhus to make them all automatons, or they need to have a fearless IC in them to make them decent.

You will need to lose more than 4 of them to force LD checks if you have 35 of them, but the core of Exergy's point is accurate. Cultists don't have any dakka/choppa potentional.

I disagree. I run a tourney list that uses cultists without a babysitter of any kind. They're just cheap backfield objective holders. Sure, they die fast, but it also means my opponent has to spend resources to get to them and take them out, which is resources he is not spending on killing the more important parts of my army.

Case in point: was at a tournament last month on the final table, had my cultists squatting on my backfield objective behind a building. My opponent had to deepstrike a full GKSS squad and a DK with a flamer to get them. All of which died in the process. Yeah, I lost my cultists, but he lost the game and the tournament. Easy $100.

 Kugel wrote:

reaper with no name wrote:

 Kugel wrote:
Guys, think that all this thread is all about: oh, my, Helldrake is so awesome. I think you must not. In one of the articles in White Dwarf was speeach about cost of Striking Scorpions in Tau army. They must be 30 pts per model for Tau, but 20 pts for Khorne Army CSM. My own helldrake DIES every game after first turn. I, myself, killed enemies Vendettas every turn with obliterators, or just push them off board, becose they need to Evade to live.
I LOL to hear from c:sm players that Helldrake is cheese. Guys, take 6*5 marines in your razorbacks with twin-linked lcannon (God, how i WANT RAZORBACKS!!!), take 6 gakking tiphoon speeders!!! Overal firepower from this units will bring ANY flier to ground without great loss.
I play twise per month with my close friends. And this is hard for my CSM gunline army becose they bring IG with 2 vendettas, or GK with tons of firepower and i can tell you, just simple poper use of your own army can help a lot.

You're kidding, right?

TL lascannons will only inflict .15 HP of damage against a heldrake. 6 of them will inflict .88 HP. You just spent 450 points to do less than 1 HP per turn against a single heldrake. It's effectively worthless.

That's why i call this thread dumb. Not people dumb to participate in it, but the theme of talks is dumb. Do you play karate-by-email? Single lcannon shot have a chance to bring down Fliyer. By building proper army list and by using it properly you nulify the awesomeness of Drake. One lcannon shot is not an answer, but six of them is. Plus any other shots you can do. I did shoot down necron fliers with my plasma chosen, but if i told you they ARE an answer to threat of fliyers, you will call me an idiot, and you will be right.

"A chance" to bring down a flyer doesn't mean anything. Krak grenades have "a chance" to bring down vendettas. Does that mean that if you build your list to have a bunch of krak grenade throwers in it, heldrakes cease to be an issue? Of course not. When it takes multiple dedicated flyer defense units to shoot down one heldrake (and there are more where that came from), there's a problem.

reaper with no name wrote:

 Kugel wrote:

reaper with no name wrote:

 Kugel wrote:
Guys, think that all this thread is all about: oh, my, Helldrake is so awesome. I think you must not. In one of the articles in White Dwarf was speeach about cost of Striking Scorpions in Tau army. They must be 30 pts per model for Tau, but 20 pts for Khorne Army CSM. My own helldrake DIES every game after first turn. I, myself, killed enemies Vendettas every turn with obliterators, or just push them off board, becose they need to Evade to live.
I LOL to hear from c:sm players that Helldrake is cheese. Guys, take 6*5 marines in your razorbacks with twin-linked lcannon (God, how i WANT RAZORBACKS!!!), take 6 gakking tiphoon speeders!!! Overal firepower from this units will bring ANY flier to ground without great loss.
I play twise per month with my close friends. And this is hard for my CSM gunline army becose they bring IG with 2 vendettas, or GK with tons of firepower and i can tell you, just simple poper use of your own army can help a lot.

You're kidding, right?

TL lascannons will only inflict .15 HP of damage against a heldrake. 6 of them will inflict .88 HP. You just spent 450 points to do less than 1 HP per turn against a single heldrake. It's effectively worthless.

That's why i call this thread dumb. Not people dumb to participate in it, but the theme of talks is dumb. Do you play karate-by-email? Single lcannon shot have a chance to bring down Fliyer. By building proper army list and by using it properly you nulify the awesomeness of Drake. One lcannon shot is not an answer, but six of them is. Plus any other shots you can do. I did shoot down necron fliers with my plasma chosen, but if i told you they ARE an answer to threat of fliyers, you will call me an idiot, and you will be right.

"A chance" to bring down a flyer doesn't mean anything. Krak grenades have "a chance" to bring down vendettas. Does that mean that if you build your list to have a bunch of krak grenade throwers in it, heldrakes cease to be an issue? Of course not. When it takes multiple dedicated flyer defense units to shoot down one heldrake (and there are more where that came from), there's a problem.

Agreed. I think the Heldrake, more than any other unit, has caused a meta-shift in 40k. It's that strong. Unbeatable? Certainly not. Not even close. But it's one of those units that many armies have to actually plan on, which I think is telling. My personal belief is that they strength of the baleflamer should only have been 4, but it is what it is.

I took the "if you can't beat em, join em" approach and just included C:CSM allies in my list.

The Vendetta changes the meta more than the Helturkey. Because the Vendetta can destroy all other fliers on a point for point basis.

Martel732 wrote:
The Vendetta changes the meta more than the Helturkey.

No it doesn't. The fact that you claim it does means you don't understand what "changing meta" means. While Vendetta is obviously 50+ points underpriced, it isn't anything "special". It is just 3 TL-lascannons and ability transport some guardsmen. Any list that can handle large amounts of lascannon fire can handle damage vendattas do just fine. And all good TAC lists should be able to handle that amount of AT fire.

Helldrake on other hand requires many armies to actually specially change their lists to accommodate for the possibility of opponent fielding it (ie. playing against CSM). For example, those foot-slogging marine TAC lists that were so popular? Post-FAQ Helldrakes are scary good against them. Now all those MEQ TAC lists must change and take account the 360 degree baleflamer in one way or another. And pretty much any choice they do will make them worse against Daemons and IG.

Martel732 wrote:
Because the Vendetta can destroy all other fliers on a point for point basis.

Which isn't meta-shifting at all. They're just undercosted. Necron Annihilation barges are undercosted too. They didn't cause meta-shift either.

Helldrake brings something completely new to the table: Extremely good template weapon on extremely mobile and durable platform. Pre-FAQ it still was possible to position your troops so that Helldrake wouldn't be able to fire each turn, thus limiting its effective firepower. Post-FAQ, that is impossible.

From that standpoint you are correct.

I never fielded foot sloggers, so maybe I missed that particular shift. I just ate the hull point mechanic and kept going mech frequently.

Luide wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
The Vendetta changes the meta more than the Helturkey.

No it doesn't. The fact that you claim it does means you don't understand what "changing meta" means. While Vendetta is obviously 50+ points underpriced, it isn't anything "special". It is just 3 TL-lascannons and ability transport some guardsmen. Any list that can handle large amounts of lascannon fire can handle damage vendattas do just fine. And all good TAC lists should be able to handle that amount of AT fire.

Helldrake on other hand requires many armies to actually specially change their lists to accommodate for the possibility of opponent fielding it (ie. playing against CSM). For example, those foot-slogging marine TAC lists that were so popular? Post-FAQ Helldrakes are scary good against them. Now all those MEQ TAC lists must change and take account the 360 degree baleflamer in one way or another. And pretty much any choice they do will make them worse against Daemons and IG.

Martel732 wrote:
Because the Vendetta can destroy all other fliers on a point for point basis.

Which isn't meta-shifting at all. They're just undercosted. Necron Annihilation barges are undercosted too. They didn't cause meta-shift either.

Helldrake brings something completely new to the table: Extremely good template weapon on extremely mobile and durable platform. Pre-FAQ it still was possible to position your troops so that Helldrake wouldn't be able to fire each turn, thus limiting its effective firepower. Post-FAQ, that is impossible.

Heldrakes are changing the meta, because they are good but have limits. Daemon Flamers are good, and have no such limits. They go through ANY armor, not just 2+. They destroy any vehicles, not just put some glancing clangs on some low AV transports.

Quick translation:

"Undercosted" = "Underpriced"

Thank you.
No back to your regular thread...

Luide wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
The Vendetta changes the meta more than the Helturkey.

No it doesn't. The fact that you claim it does means you don't understand what "changing meta" means. While Vendetta is obviously 50+ points underpriced, it isn't anything "special". It is just 3 TL-lascannons and ability transport some guardsmen. Any list that can handle large amounts of lascannon fire can handle damage vendattas do just fine. And all good TAC lists should be able to handle that amount of AT fire.

Helldrake on other hand requires many armies to actually specially change their lists to accommodate for the possibility of opponent fielding it (ie. playing against CSM). For example, those foot-slogging marine TAC lists that were so popular? Post-FAQ Helldrakes are scary good against them. Now all those MEQ TAC lists must change and take account the 360 degree baleflamer in one way or another. And pretty much any choice they do will make them worse against Daemons and IG.

Martel732 wrote:
Because the Vendetta can destroy all other fliers on a point for point basis.

Which isn't meta-shifting at all. They're just undercosted. Necron Annihilation barges are undercosted too. They didn't cause meta-shift either.

Helldrake brings something completely new to the table: Extremely good template weapon on extremely mobile and durable platform. Pre-FAQ it still was possible to position your troops so that Helldrake wouldn't be able to fire each turn, thus limiting its effective firepower. Post-FAQ, that is impossible.

Bravo sir, My hands are clapping.

@ Exergy, Heldrakes are more mobile than Flamers of Tzeentch and also more durable. They will always get the Alpha Strike as well. Flamers have to take a huge risk to get an immediate alpha-strike because DSing close to troops could easily result in them being placed out of the game, or even being killed. I do agree that Flamers are one of the most troublesome units in the game though.

Flamers work well with the Masque, you can be a little more loose with their deployment, and the Masque can arrange the enemy unit(s) into a nice tear drop shaped formation.

Kevlar wrote:
Flamers work well with the Masque, you can be a little more loose with their deployment, and the Masque can arrange the enemy unit(s) into a nice tear drop shaped formation.

yeah, it's a shame they have to make use of the allies matrix to use that combat.....

Flamers and Screamers are overpowered as well (though many speculate that when daemons get a new codex, they'll lose EW, which would make them more reasonable), and marines will struggle against them, but at least they have a chance. Against heldrakes, they just have to roll over and die unless they have IG allies.

There's nothing wrong with there existing units that are effective against marines. The heldrake pre-FAQ was one of them. It was scary for marines, but seeing two of them didn't mean your BAs or SWs were automatically doomed. It just meant you would have a hard time of things. You couldn't kill them (even a LC/MM Stormraven will only average 0.6 HP per turn against a heldrake), but if you positioned yourself well you could minimize their damage enough that you might be able to win (even if it was an uphill battle).

Post-FAQ? Forget it. That heldrake will wipe out 5 of your marine troops per turn and there's almost nothing you can do about it. If he has two, you're likely to find yourself with literally no troops by game's end. You'll have a hard time winning a game with no troops (especially when there's still the rest of your opponent's army to contend with).