Cheesless Armies die to Helldrakes

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**StormK**

reaper with no name wrote:
Flamers and Screamers are overpowered as well (though many speculate that when daemons get a new codex, they'll lose EW, which would make them more reasonable), and marines will struggle against them, but at least they have a chance. Against heldrakes, they just have to roll over and die unless they have IG allies.

There's nothing wrong with there existing units that are effective against marines. The heldrake pre-FAQ was one of them. It was scary for marines, but seeing two of them didn't mean your BAs or SWs were automatically doomed. It just meant you would have a hard time of things. You couldn't kill them (even a LC/MM Stormraven will only average 0.6 HP per turn against a heldrake), but if you positioned yourself well you could minimize their damage enough that you might be able to win (even if it was an uphill battle).

Post-FAQ? Forget it. That heldrake will wipe out 5 of your marine troops per turn and there's almost nothing you can do about it. If he has two, you're likely to find yourself with literally no troops by game's end. You'll have a hard time winning a game with no troops (especially when there's still the rest of your opponent's army to contend with).

That isEXCACTLY what happened to me. By turn 4 I had already lost the game. Never mind that he still had a Decimator Engine, two Forgefiends, and Deamon allies that included flamers of Tzeentch, bloodletters, and a Bloodthirster... I never really got to fight anything but the Helldrakes.

**AlmightyWalrus**

Exergy wrote:
Kevlar wrote:
Flamers work well with the Masque, you can be a little more loose with their deployment, and the Masque can arrange the enemy unit(s) into a nice tear drop shaped formation.

yeah, it's a shame they have to make use of the allies matrix to use that combat.....

I don't know what you're on about, but the Masque of Slaanesh and Flamers are in the same army...

**Snappenthetwig**

StormK wrote:
Snappenthetwig wrote:
Hyperios air defence batteries. They tear through Helldrakes and any other flyers with ease try them. Hyperios pattern Whirlwinds and Landraiders work well to.

How many points is a battery? I've been thinking of getting the FW models cause I could field them as a battery or use them with Whirlwinds (which are mentioned in Marines Malevolent fluff and would fit my theme).

Not sure if im allowed to post points or stats. The rules are in the Imperial armor Aeronautica book or a quick google search will do the job.

There not cheap but since i started to use them flyers are no longer a problem.

**SnaleKing**

loving this thread.

If I may derail the conversation for a moment, have we talked about Hades Autocannon Heldrakes (Autodrakes) yet?

I know, clearly not as useful in most armies as the baleflamer. But some armies (daemons, off the top of my head) have crap anti-air, and the fact that the hades is 360 (unlike a vendetta) and can daemonforge makes it a pretty good choice for anti-air: and it's not breaking the bank for what you get.

(as you can see by my profile, I'm partial to my autodrake)

**StormK**

I think the baleflamer is more useful because it has "torrent" which allows it to go around corners, vehicles, your own troops, etc. autocannons are straight line of sight weapons.

**Kingsley**

StormK wrote:
I think the baleflamer is more useful because it has "torrent" which allows it to go around corners, vehicles, your own troops, etc. autocannons are straight line of sight weapons.

The Baleflamer still can't remove models that are out of line of sight, though.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

SnaleKing wrote:
loving this thread.

If I may derail the conversation for a moment, have we talked about Hades Autocannon Heldrakes (Autodrakes) yet?

I know, clearly not as useful in most armies as the baleflamer. But some armies (daemons, off the top of my head) have crap anti-air, and the fact that the hades is 360 (unlike a vendetta) and can daemonforge makes it a pretty good choice for anti-air: and it's not breaking the bank for what you get.

(as you can see by my profile, I'm partial to my autodrake)

Autocannon Heldrakes are very underrated. They can fly over vehicles and shoot them in the rear armor and represent a serious threat to enemy flyers as well.

**ace101**

Kingsley wrote:
Autocannon Heldrakes are very underrated. They can fly over vehicles and shoot them in the rear armor and represent a serious threat to enemy flyers as well.

I guess this is why the pair of heldrakes is very powerful: One to cook the heavy infantry, one to AC/VS light armor/flyers. That's

folks

**StormK**

ace101 wrote:
Kingsley wrote:
Autocannon Heldrakes are very underrated. They can fly over vehicles and shoot them in the rear armor and represent a serious threat to enemy flyers as well.
I guess this is why the pair of heldrakes is very powerful: One to cook the heavy infantry, one to AC/VS light armor/flyers. That's folks

LOL

**BronzeJon**

It isn't as bad now that it can only remove as many models as it can visually see, and the helios batteries are such a great choice for what, the cost of a drop pod?

**Snappenthetwig**

BronzeJon wrote:
It isn't as bad now that it can only remove as many models as it can visually see, and the helios batteries are such a great choice for what, the cost of a drop pod?

You mean Hyperios Batteries the Helios is a landraider with a Whirlwind launcher on top.

**felixcat**

Heldrakes pose problems for sure. Last night I watched a Fabius Bile/Haemonculus list - couple of rhino squads, 2 'drakes, AGL, big cultist squad supported by haemie w/grots in raider and two wrack venoms. Should not be a tough list to play against at 1850. But the 'drakes were unquestionably altering the whole mechanics of the game. He was playing GK and they were trying to deal with the 'drakes supplemented by DE transports with poor results -even with prescience and psycannons. A list like that should not even compete but it won two of it's three matches yesterday. I only caught the tail end of one.

**Exergy**

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Exergy wrote:
Kevlar wrote:
Flamers work well with the Masque, you can be a little more loose with their deployment, and the Masque can arrange the enemy unit(s) into a nice tear drop shaped formation.

yeah, it's a shame they have to make use of the allies matrix to use that combat.....

I don't know what you're on about, but the Masque of Slaanesh and Flamers are in the same army...

sarcasm

**AlmightyWalrus**

Exergy wrote:
AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Exergy wrote:
Kevlar wrote:
Flamers work well with the Masque, you can be a little more loose with their deployment, and the Masque can arrange the enemy unit(s) into a nice tear drop shaped formation.

yeah, it's a shame they have to make use of the allies matrix to use that combat.....

I don't know what you're on about, but the Masque of Slaanesh and Flamers are in the same army...

sarcasm

Bull. That didn't make any sense at all, what's the sarcasm supposed to be about?