Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

So, I have a chunk of Termies with a Chaos Terminator Lord I'm planning on running. I don't know which is better: a Mark of Nurgle for +1 Toughness or a much more expensive Mark of Slaanesh and Icon of Excess for +1 Initiative and FNP. Thoughts?

I go with MoT, for the 4+ Invul, but for your question, I would say MoN for the +1 Toughness.

Are they going to be melee or DS Shooty?
How are you weaponizing them?

They're a combination. I've modeled them up with a wide variety of weapons to be a generalist unit. Mostly, they draw fire. It's a small points game, and they're a large unit, so they're pretty much my main force. I have a vehicle hunter unit with them, and that's about it. They have combi weapons, lightning claws, heavy flamer, autocannon, etc. Melee weapons are fists, power or chain. They can get stuck in pretty well, but they can also serve as fire support, ruin cleaners, or whatever else I need.

How many fists and chains? Because they redux your I to 1, so slaanesh will not be worth it.

I'd stuck with nurgle or tzeentch.

I had forgotten about the fists/Initiative thing. Though, now I'm thinking about Tzeentch! Thank you!

I'm looking to run a unit of terminators in a 1500pt force. I'm painting up one as M.o.N for when I'm against hordes; force S3 weapons to really struggle to hurt them. And MoT for elite armies; trying to survive better against lascannons, melta and plasma weapons.

The units are both 4 or 5 strong depending on the overall force and weigh in around the 180pts mark for the 4 man unit (chainfist, combis and h.flamer + marks). Not really considered slaneesh ones due to rail guns, lascannons, meltaguns negating all the points spent getting the mark and the icon.

I'd go with MoS, FNP is pretty great

How large of a unit will you be fielding?

Flamer + reaper autocannon indicates hes runing 10.
I'd also sugges tmark Nurgle or Tzeench. I guess it depends on your meta, experiment which kind of firepower your termies attracts the most and then decide.

Consider it this way:

Nurgle: Increases the survivability of your Termies against attacks that are S6 or lower. (1/6 of d6 results will not wound a MoN Termie that would have wounded otherwise.)

Tzeentch: Increases the survivability of your Termies against attacks that are AP1 or 2. (1/6 of d6 results will pass an invulnerable save that would otherwise have failed.)

Slaanesh: Increases the survivability of your Termies against attacks that are S7 or lower. (1/3 of otherwise-wounded Termies will pass a FNP save.)

In smaller point games, you're likely to see relatively fewer AP 1/2 weapons or S8+ weapons.

Yes, I'm running a full ten with a Chaos Termie Lord attached. I've found that eleven terminators has a way of catching my opponent's attention that few other things do.

 Janthkin wrote:
Consider it this way:

Nurgle: Increases the survivability of your Termies against attacks that are S6 or lower. (1/6 of d6 results will not wound a MoN Termie that would have wounded otherwise.)

Tzeentch: Increases the survivability of your Termies against attacks that are AP1 or 2. (1/6 of d6 results will pass an invulnerable save that would otherwise have failed.)

Slaanesh: Increases the survivability of your Termies against attacks that are S7 or lower. (1/3 of otherwise-wounded Termies will pass a FNP save.)

In smaller point games, you're likely to see relatively fewer AP 1/2 weapons or S8+ weapons.

but the nurgle and tzeench are just per model costs while slanesh has a per model component and a per squad componenet. slanesh units really have to have 10 models to take advarage of the icon of excess.

Also consider the mark on your lord, if he is the only lord and you go with tzeentch means no noise/plague marines as troops. If you had to choose between slaanesh and nurgle I'd go with nurgle, so that the lord can be T5 and avoid being instakilled by power fists.

Whenever I run them (my unit is of 5 on a LR) they go markless with only the lord having MoN.

Oh, also another point against MoS, since the models have no swords only maces and axes, probably you got those on your termies which means the I gets reduced to 1 for the axes and a mace with AP4 at I6 isn't that scary. Besiiiides that chaos termies don't have grenades so if you charge something in cover you lose the benefit from the MoS mark.

If you go nurgle, pay the points for defensive grenades it gives the entire unit the benefit.

 Exergy wrote:
but the nurgle and tzeench are just per model costs while slanesh has a per model component and a per squad componenet. slanesh units really have to have 10 models to take advarage of the icon of excess.

Oh, definitely the economies of scale have to factor in. I'm not advocating one way or another - it's just a bald statement of the actual benefits of each.

If you're running them as a squad of ten dudes, then you're either deepstriking them or just walking them. As deepstriking 10 terminators models is generally risky, you're probably just walking them. In that case I'd probably recommend Nurgle -- it makes your terminators more resistant to some the fire that your opponent wants to use to take them out, the small arms fire. As one of the more efficient ways of taking out models with a 2+ save is to just swamp them with saves (each one they fail hurting a lot more than for cheaper dudes), Toughness 5 will make them a lot more resilient against random bolter shots. It will do nothing against things like demolisher cannons; if your meta is filled with things like that, or plasma spam, then I'd go for Tzeentch and the 4++ save. Nurgle terminators are also no better than normal chaos terminators against their loyalist counterparts. Powerfists and Thunderhammers don't care about Toughness 5, and the lack of instant death also means nothing against 1 wound models. This also makes Slaanesh+Icon pretty useless, as combat with other terminators will mostly ignore it, and you're going to be striking at Initiative 1 a lot anyways with Axes or fists.

Basically, if your terminators are going to be shot at with basic infantry weapons a lot, go for Nurgle. If they're in combat with other hammer-style units or taking Demolisher cannon-calibre shots, go Tzeentch. Also, Khorne can be funny for extra power weapon attacks, which can give you an advantage over other hammer units in close combat. Khorne also gives you the possibility of a Terminator Lord with the Axe of Blind Fury, which shreds terminators like no tomorrow. I've had a power armored axe lord with terminators charge a large shooty terminator unit, the terminator sergeant challenged to give the axe lord space, and then the axe lord killed 6 of the terminators at initiative 5. Needless to say, I won that combat. The problem with Khorne is that you unlock Berserkers, generally considered subpar compared to Plague or Noise Marines.

You're putting a lord with your terminators as well, right? That changes up the decision matrix somewhat, as Tzeentch terminators restricts you to Tzeentch, unmarked characters, or Abaddon. Most tzeentch characters aren't what I'd recommend, although a 3++ lord can be funny (but still dies to power fist doubling out too easily). Nurgle lords are nice, but they want to be in combat against other terms, with their not-getting-instakilled by powerfists, and your nurgle terminators don't really want to be in that combat with him. So if you mark Nurgle, your lord will be better in terminator combat, and if you mark Tzeentch, your terminators will be better in terminator combat, and if you mark Khorne, you get occasional hilarity. It's up to you in the end which of the options you want to go for.

I would say MoS IoE it really helps them survive that exposed turn of shooting after they deepstrike

10 Chaos termies probably isnt that bad if you are flying them in with a Storm Eagle.
Or Spartan Assault Tank for sheer hilarity!
If you play with Forge World stuff anyway...

It also depends on what your arming your Tlord with i run mine with MoS the black Mace and a Pfist its rather effective against other terminators let your termie champ eat the challenge whilst the lord goes nuts with his PFist then next turn when you pile in its Mace time a possible 10 attacks with the fleshbane rule is nuts and because everyone is piled in its nice and tight for when you drop that toughness test marker even TH SS termies get messed up with the black mace


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just had a thought what about taking Huron giving the lord infiltrate and infiltrating a 10 man termie squad if you get 2 units infiltrate the termies and a giant cultist blob to provide them with a meatsheild

Thariinye wrote:
If you're running them as a squad of ten dudes, then you're either deepstriking them or just walking them. As deepstriking 10 terminators models is generally risky, you're probably just walking them. In that case I'd probably recommend Nurgle -- it makes your terminators more resistant to some the fire that your opponent wants to use to take them out, the small arms fire. As one of the more efficient ways of taking out models with a 2+ save is to just swamp them with saves (each one they fail hurting a lot more than for cheaper dudes), Toughness 5 will make them a lot more resilient against random bolter shots. It will do nothing against things like demolisher cannons; if your meta is filled with things like that, or plasma spam, then I'd go for Tzeentch and the 4++ save. Nurgle terminators are also no better than normal chaos terminators against their loyalist counterparts. Powerfists and Thunderhammers don't care about Toughness 5, and the lack of instant death also means nothing against 1 wound models. This also makes Slaanesh+Icon pretty useless, as combat with other terminators will mostly ignore it, and you're going to be striking at Initiative 1 a lot anyways with Axes or fists.

Basically, if your terminators are going to be shot at with basic infantry weapons a lot, go for Nurgle. If they're in combat with other hammer-style units or taking Demolisher cannon-calibre shots, go Tzeentch. Also, Khorne can be funny for extra power weapon attacks, which can give you an advantage over other hammer units in close combat. Khorne also gives you the possibility of a Terminator Lord with the Axe of Blind Fury, which shreds terminators like no tomorrow. I've had a power armored axe lord with terminators charge a large shooty terminator unit, the terminator sergeant challenged to give the axe lord space, and then the axe lord killed 6 of the terminators at initiative 5. Needless to say, I won that combat. The problem with Khorne is that you unlock Berserkers, generally considered subpar compared to Plague or Noise Marines.

You're putting a lord with your terminators as well, right? That changes up the decision matrix somewhat, as Tzeentch terminators restricts you to Tzeentch, unmarked characters, or Abaddon. Most tzeentch characters aren't what I'd recommend, although a 3++ lord can be funny (but still dies to power fist doubling out too easily). Nurgle lords are nice, but they want to be in combat against other terms, with their not-getting-instakilled by powerfists, and your nurgle terminators don't really want to be in that combat with him. So if you mark Nurgle, your lord will be better in terminator combat, and if you mark Tzeentch, your terminators will be better in terminator combat, and if you mark Khorne, you get occasional hilarity. It's up to you in the end which of the options you want to go for.

There is a lot of logic here...

If you are sinking the 500+ points into a single squad than I would consider what they are facing before deciding how to play them. 10 Terminators is extremely expensive, and will almost certainly kill any single squad you engage with them. But there is a caviat there... they will only be able to engage a single enemy target at a time, and that much power will likely be wasted. Remember that you are "spending" those 500+ points every turn when your opponent will be using smaller, group to engage your other units.

You said before that you play this particular build because it "gets attention". I assume you mean that it's drawing lots of fire... in which case I would rule out Khorne and Slaanesh as they will not help you much in that arena. Nurgle will provide a better survival rate against most enemy infantry and some heavy weapons, while the Tzeentch option will help you out more against rival Terminators and other specialized units.

I honestly think that having a single squad of that size is a massive risk, and would recommend that you run two squads of 5 Termis... nothing is stopping you from moving them alongside one another on the table for the "strength in numbers" effect, but it frees to up to engage separate targets if needed. You may also want to specialize them further by having one more oriented to CC and the other more kitted out for shooting.

Give a squad of Termis all pairs of lightening claws and either the mark of Khorne or Slaanesh and just laugh as they mince everything in CC.... or give them fists and an Autocannon or Flamer and let them benefit from either Nurgle or Tzeentch. Just make sure you kit your Chaos Lord to match... a Terminator Lord with lightening claws and the mark of Khorne is no joke.

FNP with MoS/Icon isnt bad for survival consider how popular plasma weapons are, T5 does nothing against the common S7 AP2 and 5++/FNP is statistically better than a flat 4++, against common small arms FNP is worse than having T5, but it's still something.
If I want to fight loyalist termies, I'd bring combi-plasma and shoot them instead of fighting them in CC.
Double Claws seems good, but this being 6th I'd be more incline towards having 4 combi-weapon/claw plust 1 reaper AC.

Nurgle. With the exception of not using any Unwieldy weapons, the Slaneesh mark will be wasted on the multiple models armed with the Unwieldy weapons.

If it's on your HQ as well, it means he won't be one shot by anything short of a Demolisher Cannon/Rail Gun/Smashing MC, which is a good thing. It'll also make them stronger against small arms fire, which is generally the killer of Terminators.

While the Icon of Excess/Slaneesh is fun, it costs so much more than the Mark of Nurgle, it's more efficient to stick with that.

 Jackster wrote:
FNP with MoS/Icon isnt bad for survival consider how popular plasma weapons are, T5 does nothing against the common S7 AP2 and 5++/FNP is statistically better than a flat 4++, against common small arms FNP is worse than having T5, but it's still something.

FNP is worse against S3 weapons, equivalent to T5 against S4 weapons, and better against S5-S7 weapons. Depends largely on your local meta as to whether you see more S3 or S4 infantry weapons, but as you say, it's certainly better than T5 against just about everything that goes through a 2+ save, barring instant-death.

If they'll spend a lot of time in close combat, Slaanesh's Initiative boost is the way to go. Otherwise, Nurgly toughness seems better value.

If they're in combat, slaanesh. The initiative boost only help reduce wounds the enemy can cause, adding greatly to their survivability. I use a nurgle lord with Sigil and Brand of skakalaka with nurgle marines in a rhino. It's great being able to have both noise marines and plague Marines as troops; just put FnP on everything.

I would suggest split into 2 squads and keep them cheap. No mark at all. No matter what kind of mark you add, they are not going to become deathwing termis. Keep them cheap.

Eldenfirefly wrote:
I would suggest split into 2 squads and keep them cheap. No mark at all. No matter what kind of mark you add, they are not going to become deathwing termis. Keep them cheap.

Of course. Why keep them alive when you can just have cheap, dead terminators?

terminators are not cheapthrowaway units like cultists they are worth investing points in they are our best CC threat and adaptable to all situations

between the 2, MoN--been playing around with it a little and it seems alot better as you are taking less wounds and not having to use the FNP roll

Even without any marks, they have 2+ save, 5++ invulnerable. That's plenty good. on its own. Yes, if you want more defense add mark of Tzeentch, but like I said, its still not going to make them storm shield termis. At 31 points, you can take 4 terminators with full combi plasma guns, and that would only cost 148 points. No other codex can do it so cheap.

Once you add too much other stuff (marks, icons, etc). It becomes as expensive as storm shield termis, and yet, they will never be as hardy as storm shield termis. The biggest benefit of chaos termis I feel is their low cost. Go for quantity rather than quality.

If I want to invest more points into termis, I would still bring basic termis, but I would bring more, and in more squads. Like 3 squads of 4 termis, with full combi plama guns and power axes. That's a mini deathwing drop all on its own, and its very cheap. You will do a lot of damage on the turn you deep strike in, and if he ignores you, you will do even more in subsequent turns. The whole sheebang costs less than 500 points and ultimately, its still 12 terminators on the table with 2+, 5++.

Besides, its not like our elite slots are packed with lots of must take options like our fast attack or our heavy support slots. So, just go to town on the termis!!!

I am running a EC list and I agree that it is a important to kit out your Terminators to keep the benifits in mind. Single Lightining Claws with a Combi-weapon are my prefered load-out, along with a IoE. I like to put a HQ with each unit (Sorc and Lord (with Dual LC) in Terminator Armor) and give the HQ Melta bombs. You can also eat the Init for one guy and give him a CF/PF (If you really want/need a AP 1 melee guy and want better than a Axe), but I off set that guy with a dual claw guy. I run two each of Combi-Meltas and Combi-Plasmas, just because I don't know what I will face and I want them to be able to deal with any situation... which I will admit muddles them some, but I understand that. I run no heavy weapons at all and if I have to clear an objective I have other units for that (Noise Marines). Pretty much I DS them in For Line Breaker and to take on tough nuts. My hope is that I survive the plasma/melta for that turn (banking alot on the IoE) and hoping I can whittle them down with weapon fire before they unload on me (Giggity) and then get into CC with them. Just remember when your placing your guys to put the ones you don't mind losing closest. Make sure to protect that Icon as well... your paying a ton of points for it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
After re-reading the rules, both the LC and the CF count as Specialist weapons, so Dual claw is a waste when you get the benifit of the extra attack for either weapon and can choose if your using the CF or LC, depending on your target and AP needs. I will then be making this guy my Icon bearer (since I normally made it the dual LC guy in the past anyway).