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How do you use yours?

I am currently shuffling with a list that would contain 2x10men tactical squads/rhinos and 1 command squad (standard of devastation) + 1 librarian (powerfield generator/prescience) in a razorback.
The idea was to send these guys 18 inches forward turn 1, move 6 inches and disembark turn 2 (if the rhinos are still mobile at that point). And then start shooting efficiently turn 3.

But this gives me the full benefit of the banner only from turn 3 onward. And I also have to take in consideration the high probability that these will be reduced to half power before I event start using the 4 shots salvo fire. I have a strange feeling that I am wasting time for the first 2 game turns.

Anyone sees an option to make the banner useful right from turn 2? (Was thinking of maybe doing a 5 drop pod list and drop the 2 tacticals and the command squad on turn 1)

Land-Raider Crusader that is all
or Drop pods turn 1 is bad turn 2 less so

Interesting.
I could flank this Crusader with 2 bike squads, this way the crusader and the bikes can shoot on the move at full salvo efficiency!

Run 3 inside the bubble up the middle,

See this topic in the army list section.

Thanks for the link..

This list used BoD to great effect and won Best General at the TSHFT OPEN:
http://www.ordofanaticus.com/blog/?p=123

This bike list looks really nasty. I am pretty sure my local players would not like it

 pretre wrote:
This list used BoD to great effect and won Best General at the TSHFT OPEN:
http://www.ordofanaticus.com/blog/?p=123

That is a potent alpha strike list. By Alpha Strike I mean an extreme list from a very new codex that many people in a tournament might not have even read yet. Its terribly flawed in many ways. It hinges on the BoD, which is in a very fragile unit (3 man command squad). Even with Sammael buttressing the unit with his EW it can easily be sniped out by barrage sniping, sniper rifles, Vindicare assassins. Also it must bunch together terribly to take advantage of the banner. Im sure the player was very good with bikes but its a flawed list. In larger tournament formats it will run against a rock that will crush its scissors.

It ran up against:
Tau w/ Eldar
CSM w/ Daemons (with tons of cover denial)
DA w/ BA
IG w/ GK
Tyranids
in a 64 player tournament against folks like Reecius, Frankie's Harlie-star, Alan's Nids and others. I wouldn't call that a poor showing.

 pretre wrote:
It ran up against:
Tau w/ Eldar
CSM w/ Daemons
DA w/ BA
IG w/ GK
Tyranids
in a 64 player tournament against folks like Reecius, Frankie, and others. I wouldn't call that a poor showing.

My point is that if someone can take out the banner on the first turn, using the weapons i previously mentioned, the firepower of the army at best drops by 50%, if not by 75%. I think in the future you'll see people playing this exact army and losing because they are not nearly as good with it as him. Its very potent but very extreme and prone to bad matchups.

I think a gunline would be best for them. Let them come to you, and blast them to the eye of terror!

Glocknall wrote:
My point is that if someone can take out the banner on the first turn, using the weapons i previously mentioned, the firepower of the army at best drops by 50%, if not by 75%. I think in the future you'll see people playing this exact army and losing because they are not nearly as good with it as him. Its very potent but very extreme and prone to bad matchups.

Sure, but I think you'll find a lot of lists that do very well are like that.

And, of course, the thread is about using the SoD to best effect. He did that.

Gunline would be the worst possible matchup. You would be entirely stationary allowing them to move up and unleash 4 twinlinked bolter shots per bike at 24". You would die horrbly as your troop choices are obliterated by massed bolter fire. Then the attack bikes come in and destroy your tanks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 pretre wrote:

Glocknall wrote:
My point is that if someone can take out the banner on the first turn, using the weapons i previously mentioned, the firepower of the army at best drops by 50%, if not by 75%. I think in the future you'll see people playing this exact army and losing because they are not nearly as good with it as him. Its very potent but very extreme and prone to bad matchups.

Sure, but I think you'll find a lot of lists that do very well are like that.

And, of course, the thread is about using the SoD to best effect. He did that.

Agreed. Not trying to put down the list. It was obviously very good but it is still really early in the meta. Remember Kopach at NoVA.

I assume you can only take 1 banner of devestation. If so, it will definitly be my Vindicare assassins first targets. Unless its in a Land Raider, in which case that is the primary target.

If you can take multiples that would obviously spread the risk.

Yeah, you want precision shooting or cover denial. Take out the lynchpin and then eat the rest. The Chaos guy had the best chance, but deployed poorly and ended up basically tabled before the helldrakes came in.

To be fair though, MikhailLenin is a very good general.

I like the idea of a deathwing command squad with the banner in a crusader with the power field generator, flanked with 2 ravenwing attack squadrons and backed by a darkshroud.

I just made a topic about it which has been marked as redundant, cant believe i missed this thread :/

smee wrote:
I like the idea of a deathwing command squad with the banner in a crusader with the power field generator, flanked with 2 ravenwing attack squadrons and backed by a darkshroud.

I just made a topic about it which has been marked as redundant, cant believe i missed this thread :/

I think it should, at the very list, be very interesting to try out. I might give it a go in next week's game.

Well.if enemy doesn't have long range artillery and is focused on assaulting you, this Standard of Devastation can be nasty against him. (think Khorne berzerkers approaching - blow their Rhinos and gun them down!)

If enemy is dug in, is expecting you to move, and is using heavy artillery pieces, you really have to move closer. And Std Of Devastation isn't perfect,as you can't move with salvo weapons. Spess Mehrens in open really fear thinks like Battle Cannons, Basilisks (think Guard). Against such opponents 5 drop pod list appears to be _much_ better option, as it allows you to kill their infantry squads efficiently from turn one (double 2 shots at 12" range; drop pods preferrably deployed near CCS or other vulnerable high value targets).

Generally, yes, I agree with idea of heavy drop pod usage.

smee wrote:
I like the idea of a deathwing command squad with the banner in a crusader with the power field generator, flanked with 2 ravenwing attack squadrons and backed by a darkshroud.

I just made a topic about it which has been marked as redundant, cant believe i missed this thread :/

Do feel free to copy/paste your text from the other thread into this one - the goal is to avoid fragmentation of discussion, not to keep you from sharing your thoughts.

maciek wrote:
If enemy is dug in, is expecting you to move, and is using heavy artillery pieces, you really have to move closer. And Std Of Devastation isn't perfect,as you can't move with salvo weapons.

Unless your Salvo weapons are all on Relentless bikes.

Spess Mehrens in open really fear thinks like Battle Cannons, Basilisks (think Guard). Against such opponents 5 drop pod list appears to be _much_ better option, as it allows you to kill their infantry squads efficiently from turn one (double 2 shots at 12" range; drop pods preferrably deployed near CCS or other vulnerable high value targets).

So you get 3 drop pods turn 1 and then get shot to death? Yikes.

 pretre wrote:

maciek wrote:
If enemy is dug in, is expecting you to move, and is using heavy artillery pieces, you really have to move closer. And Std Of Devastation isn't perfect,as you can't move with salvo weapons.

Unless your Salvo weapons are all on Relentless bikes.

True. But how many bikes can you field with reasonable points?

Although I like the idea. idea of putting standard on Land Raider to affect bikes. And Hurricane Bolters as well.
(I've never tried it. or even thought of trying it)

 pretre wrote:

Spess Mehrens in open really fear thinks like Battle Cannons, Basilisks (think Guard). Against such opponents 5 drop pod list appears to be _much_ better option, as it allows you to kill their infantry squads efficiently from turn one (double 2 shots at 12" range; drop pods preferrably deployed near CCS or other vulnerable high value targets).

So you get 3 drop pods turn 1 and then get shot to death? Yikes.

It isn't that easy to shot 25 marines to death! Another issue is, that Basilisks and other such things can shot you across the board. So you can make more damage by just landing in their deployment zone.

2 tactical + command squad = 25 boltguns; turn 1: 50 shots, 12" range; turn 2: up to 100, range 24" (probably less, as not all mehrenns will survive; probably most of them won't).
50 shots may be more than enough to destroy Company Command Squad even if they're hidden in Chimera (give your command squad some melta, just in case).

And it's cheap trick (in points), so it gives lot of points to invest elsewhere (bikes, deathwing, or whatever you like)

 pretre wrote:

maciek wrote:
If enemy is dug in, is expecting you to move, and is using heavy artillery pieces, you really have to move closer. And Std Of Devastation isn't perfect,as you can't move with salvo weapons.

Unless your Salvo weapons are all on Relentless bikes.

Spess Mehrens in open really fear thinks like Battle Cannons, Basilisks (think Guard). Against such opponents 5 drop pod list appears to be _much_ better option, as it allows you to kill their infantry squads efficiently from turn one (double 2 shots at 12" range; drop pods preferrably deployed near CCS or other vulnerable high value targets).

So you get 3 drop pods turn 1 and then get shot to death? Yikes.

I was also suggesting 5 drop pods, but in then, you're right, the troops that will get out of the DP will be drowning in wounds.

Mmmm, not many options, if my job is to go forward (instead of bracing for a Nids or Ork rush) the LR/Crusaders combination (with possibly bikes as well) seems to be the only efficient solution to get this Standard midfield and have it be efficient right from the start.
I would probably also need to drop pod 1 or 2 dreadnought in their backfield to provide more high threat targets while I advance with my front line.

maciek wrote:
True. But how many bikes can you field with reasonable points?

You missed the conversation about the recent tournament win:

First up is the 2,000 point list as per the previous article:
• HQ – Sammael – Raven Sword, Adamantite Mantle, Corvex, Night Halo.
• HQ – Librarian – Mastery Level 2, Auspex, Space Marine Bike, Force Staff, Psychic Hood.
• HQ* – Ravenwing Command Squad – 3x – 2 Corvus Hammer, 2 Plasma Talons, Champion w/ Blade of Caliban, Apothecary w/ Narthecium, Standard Bearer w/ Banner of Devastation & Grenade Launcher.
• Troops – Ravenwing Attack Squad – 6x + 1x Atk Bike – 2 Plasmaguns, Multimelta.
• Troops – Ravenwing Attack Squad – 6x + 1x Atk Bike – 2 Flamers, Multimelta.
• Troops – Ravenwing Attack Squad – 6x + 1x Atk Bike – 2 Meltaguns, Multimelta.
• Troops – Ravenwing Attack Squad – 6x + 1x Atk Bike – 2 Meltaguns, Multimelta.
• Troops – Ravenwing Attack Squad – 6x + 1x Atk Bike – 2 Meltaguns, Multimelta.
• Fast Att – Ravenwing Black Knights – 5x – 4 Plasma Talons, Power Sword, 1 Grenade Launcher.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

paqman wrote:
I was also suggesting 5 drop pods, but in then, you're right, the troops that will get out of the DP will be drowning in wounds.

1 half of 5 rounded up is? (Notice I said first turn.)

 Janthkin wrote:

smee wrote:
I like the idea of a deathwing command squad with the banner in a crusader with the power field generator, flanked with 2 ravenwing attack squadrons and backed by a darkshroud.

I just made a topic about it which has been marked as redundant, cant believe i missed this thread :/

Do feel free to copy/paste your text from the other thread into this one - the goal is to avoid fragmentation of discussion, not to keep you from sharing your thoughts.

Thanks, that's kind to say, the paste is as follows: [u]

Side note first -- Hi Dakka Dakka Forums! Been reading stuff here for a while, just registered to make comments and threads and stuff, loving the community on the whole, and enjoy discussing things especially regarding rules in 40k so feel free to drop me a line and hope to see you all around n stuffs, best wishes to all

Now then onto some tactics I thought of RE: title -

A Hurricane Bolter (as per the description in the DA codex) “consists of 3 twin linked Bolters firing as one weapon”. Bolters are affected by the Salvo banner. (debatable? I think it works as per the wording). Giving a Land Raider Crusader using the banner 24 bolter shots at 24"

Use Deathwing command squad (or standard squad if you prefer) with that banner in the crusader and flank it with 2 Ravenwing attack squadrons (run the attack bikes within the 3″ bubble of the raider also). That gives them a Jink save naturally as they ride along side (throw in a Darkshoud behind the raider for stealth) and those bikers relentless Bolters will fire 24 shots/turn from 6 bikes. You can flank either side with a squadron. Add 4 shots per attack bike (just the bolter, it’s got a heavy bolter or multi melta as well) and it’s 3 squadrons supporting each other & some nasty terminators to deploy when closer and a lot of relentless salvo fire. The land raider works for a nice transport, everything is relentless & they cant snipe the standard bearer with precision shots while he's in the tank.

with 2 Ravenwing attack squadrons and the raider means 80 Twin-linked Bolter shots (from several units, so feel free to pick several targets of course) at 24″ after moving upto 12″ (raider can lose some bs if you do).
And the Raider also has a twin linked assault cannon and possibly (probably) a multi melta.
The bikes open up 2 land speeders that can hover along with assault cannons or ditch and go tank hunting with multi meltas.

This is a mobile threat with a lot of shots all at decent range of 24", and some nice cover saves. For extra durability the character bought with the command squad (or Techmarine attached) can have a power field generator, keep the front bikers within 3" of the raider and the targeted models have that 4++ too & you can always grab a Deathwing vehicle upgrade but all of it together becomes pricey, skipping a lot of the extras can keep the effectiveness high while not costing too much. Of course you can always grab Sammael to make these scoring, but I don't see the need unless you're out of points for other troops (a cheap librarian with terminator armour will open up the command squad, the tank is more protective than running a bike command squad)

Any thoughts?

I was also talking about the first turn. 3 pods will come in first turn, 25 marines will come out (2 tacticals and 1 command squad), and the opponent will be free to fire on them for a full turn. It might be painful, and if I was the opponent, I would focus on the command squad. So quite possibly no Salvo fire on turn 2 if the command squad is wiped.


Unless the command squad comes in with belial as a Terminator command squad (a bit tougher) and you land drop pods around it...

paqman wrote:
I was also talking about the first turn. 3 pods will come in first turn, 25 marines will come out (2 tacticals and 1 command squad), and the opponent will be free to fire on them for a full turn. It might be painful, and if I was the opponent, I would focus on the command squad. So quite possibly no Salvo fire on turn 2 if the command squad is wiped.


Unless the command squad comes in with belial as a Terminator command squad (a bit tougher) and you land drop pods around it...

I see the idea as fun, but personally I don't think it's too effective.
Standard marines aren't so strong to be podded way out in front, pods are best for precision strikes in my view with some meltas or something. The marines would pod in and fire, but then find themselves in no mans land to get shot.

Buuuut all that aside the main reason is precision shots, on characters and snipers. I want the banner in a tank so they can't force that model to take a save by rolling a 6.

For the first turn the crusader and bikers can move 12" and fire 24", 36" is a decent first turn thread radius I would say.

Would still be fun to try it out though methinks & a lot cheaper too pts wise

smee wrote:

For the first turn the crusader and bikers can move 12" and fire 24", 36" is a decent first turn thread radius I would say.

Would still be fun to try it out though methinks & a lot cheaper too pts wise

Yeah, and the LR could use PotMS to fire one of its hurricane bolter at full efficiency.

Fortress of Redemption.
Place it just ahead of your battle line.
Turn 1, walk in.
Turn 2, Profit.

-Matt

FOD is actually a number of different buildings. I suppose you could put them in the central tower and put your bolter squads on the walls so they are within 6, but still way overkill and a huge point sink.