Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Okay, iv'e been hearing alot about games being won or lost on the roll of some spell dice. The thing is, outside of a teclis list (where a dwellers is cast irresistibly about once a turn) I am yet to see magic decide how the match went. Sure, it can have an impact, but so can miscasts, or 1 bad panic test.

So, where is this trend coming from? A friend seems to believe it's 40k players coming to fantasy and having a culture shock moment at how random and potentially destructive magic can be.

What do you think forum goers?

Dwellers easily killing 50% of your average unit, ToV allowing you to blindly roll dice without negative consequences, same goes for Purple Sun / Pit or #6 Tzeentch destroying an entire unit in 1 go etc. etc.

I started with WHFB, played for 4 years, sold my army in 8th, switched to 40k, much more pleased.

Yes, it can happen.

But the counter is to not have such huge units. Its the counter balance to that massive block of infantry that will never run away.

8th has pretty good balance. Its just if you are unable to see it/refuse to adapt your previous edition tactics and lists that you find trouble.

The 8th army books are extremely well-balanced. The basic rules as well. The only exception is magic that needs to be restricted in a competitive environment but then works out well. Same applies for older army books that are too strong due to changed basic rules.

It's about huge units either, big spells can also threaten smaller elite units.

Yes, but if you have smaller units you have spread the risk out.

True, small and elite units are vulnerable. Its another counter to them being super powerful. Checks and balances.

Anyway, if you don't play anymore why do you care?

I have never seen a single spell win a game, ever. Sure they can do some damage, even 50% of a horde, but that doesn't mean the game is won by it.

I don't see the problem with the big spells, and no, I don't use them. If you bring a horde that is your singular way of winning a game, you better protect them.

This conversation always comes in from more casual players playing in non-casual environments where someone will pull a purple sun on a horde. When I play for fun, I don't use those spells, but in competition, if I have them, I sure will.

8 or 9 stomps with foot of gork, can do it. Sniping a Vampire Lord on turn 1 can win games. But generally no.

I know in my past tourney, in 5 games not a single spell won me any of the games. However two in a row did win me a game.

Playing against VC I had 12-4 magic advantage (CAsket + Arkhan's paripat) Bubble soul blight + Bubble Smiting. Now that did it.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Yes, but if you have smaller units you have spread the risk out.

True, small and elite units are vulnerable. Its another counter to them being super powerful. Checks and balances.

Anyway, if you don't play anymore why do you care?

As stated in the other thread, I decided to, instead of endlessly hating on 8th being a dumbed-down version of what 7th was, happily embrace the randomness of it and go balls deep with a 100% goblin army.

Furthermore, as I stated before, a lot of German tournaments use a restriction system for WHFB that makes the game a LOT better, especially toning down magic by a good bit (e.g. max 4 dice per spell, restriction / nerfs on magic items, LOS! vs. 6th spells, among ithers). WHFB needs some work to be a good system but it's worth it.

My first game of eighth edition.
I had my orc and goblin army lined up in a traditional battle line with my mage in an archer unit at the end. This unit was at a slight angle to be able to potentially shoot or release fanatics at more of the demon army in front of me.

On the first turn, the blue scribes (or something, maybe it was just a basic tzeentch herald) stole "Curse of the Bad Moon" from me with some special power and used it to fire a gigantic vortex right down my battle line, wiping out 50% of my army due to failed initiative tests. The rest of the game was a formality.

I sure felt it was worth my time to pack my stuff, walk down to the store, wait for a game, place a hundred and something models on movement trays to essentially lose the game before I'd gotten to do anything due to some lucky rolls on my opponents part.

I was so unimpressed I've barely played any 8th edition since.

inb4 "...but magic is a good counter to this, so balanced!"

It's an extremely weak argument as magic can counter everything in the entire game, be it small elite units or hordes or anything else. That is not a counter. It's an overarching element and the main reason why magic is overpowered overall - it's too versatile. It's poor internal balancing if one element clearly dominates the game.

Hence the need for restrictions. Max 4 dice per spell is a real blessing and a major improvement balance-wise. If people are interested, I could translate the restriction system I am used to. It makes the game a lot more fun

The problem is that if you restrict magic, you also have to restrict unit sizes.

My Ogres fear only a couple things. Magic, hordes of cheap garbage infantry, and large quantities of multi-wound weapons. Take away magic without imposing other restrictions and things get wonky.


Ultimatly, comp of any sort is going to be subjective and thus flawed. Hence I prefer the impartial rules as they were written by GW.

Yup, restriction on unit size is in too

- max 45 models / unit in general
- further rules:

9-11 pts / model: max 40

12-14 pts / model: max 35

15-18 pts / model: max 30

19-29 pts / model: max 20

30-39 pts / model: max 12

40+ pts / model: max 9

I agree with your point about balance being subjective. I'll add that restrictions made by actual competitive players are superior to the ruleset that GW releases given the nature of the group that makes the rules. GW does not consider comp play into consideration and usually releases rules that have seen very little playtesting. Comp players then adding restrictions can really help balance it out.

On the first turn, the blue scribes (or something, maybe it was just a basic tzeentch herald) stole "Curse of the Bad Moon" from me with some special power and used it to fire a gigantic vortex right down my battle line, wiping out 50% of my army due to failed initiative tests. The rest of the game was a formality.

How did you have your entire army in the middle for his vortex to hit? Did you really not plan deployment that well? Sounds more like poor planning since it allowed your enemy to do so much damage..

You're really limited with a goblin army as you need most of it in your LD 8 bubble - thus it's easy prey for any sort of template attacks.

Curse of the Bad Moon is a vortex spell that moves along a linear path. So all he had to do was have LOS down my battle line and roll well and he could hit lots of units. I mean, deploying in a line is a fairly standard thing, and it's kind of unavoidable with orc and goblin armies.

I wouldn't mind losing a single unit to a spell but situations like that along with increased model counts don't make for a fun experience, to me.

I mostly use Orcs for my OnG army, so yeah I guess that would be true. Typically if I know I'll have issues with bigger spells, usually because of DE or daemons I'll spread out, sure it spreads out the LD a bit but its better then losing tons of model.

Just FYI, when a Vortex reaches the end of the distance rolled, if it is over a unit it is move along the line till it is 1" away from any unit. Models mvoed over when this occurs are NOT effected.

Also, Vortex's begin touching the base of the casting model and move from there. They are not put down somewhere else and scattered from there.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Just FYI, when a Vortex reaches the end of the distance rolled, if it is over a unit it is move along the line till it is 1" away from any unit. Models mvoed over when this occurs are NOT effected.

Also, Vortex's begin touching the base of the casting model and move from there. They are not put down somewhere else and scattered from there.

Unless the daemon moved to the flank of Daboss`s battleline somehow, it sounds like it was played wrong.

Yeah, its a very VERY common mistake people using Vortices make.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Also, Vortex's begin touching the base of the casting model and move from there. They are not put down somewhere else and scattered from there.

I have heard of many times of people doing this incorrectly.

Seems to happen mostly with incorrect gameplay or (and?) internet hyperbole.

I havnt played a game of WHFB since 6th, I know I know, but I'm going to be playing again soon with a High Elf Army. This notion of 'one spell wins games' is interesting. Back in 6th it was 'Comet Of Casandora' that every Mage worth Thier salt wanted. In case anybody hasnt heard of this spell, it's basically a nuke that gets bigger every turn.... Nasty stuff....
At the very least, it does 2D6+1 S4+1 to all units within 2D6..

Comet is still around, and it gets bigger each turn it doesn't come down. And you can have multiple Comets on the table at once.

I'm not saying that it never happens. But I really don't think it happens nearly as often as the detractors say it does.

Early on I was the victim of several losses due to Dark Elves+ Power Scroll+Purple Sun, but since that errata, I can only think of one more game lost by a spell- and that was mind razor. Even counting Power Scroll games, that comes to 2-3 games out of over 120.

I can think of games I lost due to an anvil blowing up. I can think of games I lost due to failing a re-rollable leadership 10. For some reason these are more palatable to people? Not sure why.

And of course, as Dwarfs, I can bring quite a stack of magic defense, but it doesn't really add any defense to 6 dice casting- irresistible is irresistible after all.

Much more often, I see a game won or lost by a set of crucial hexes and augments dropped on the pivotal combats.

Personally, I'm glad the big spells are out there- I can say from a Dwarf perspective that its extremely difficult to deal with death stars, and its helpful to have a metagame that keeps them at least partially in check.

Well... Try the flip side of the equation.

Skaven grey seer is general, casts on turn 1, blows himself and his unit up, unit panics, starts a chain reaction that results in 75% of the army fleeing off the board.

Yep, one cast won the game... for the other guy.

I would have to agree with the op, because watching games hang on a spell is a bit much. I started out playing my HE and watched as I worked my magic. I have seen armies break under one spell and because of that limited myself to using that ability. I just felt as a player that doing that had no skill, AND FOR FANTASY PLAYERS TO SAY THAT WARHAMMER HAS MORE SKILL THAN 40K, BAH!!!. Case in point, I tried my best to dbl drain magic each phase so that I could contest 6 dice dread 13th over and over each phase.

Take blood and glory for instants, all you have to do is break the opp and you win. The order in the phase is first the win then oh wait that its, no IF roll whats so ever. So the opp did not have to worry about that.

I am not even going to commit about cannon character snipe in, please..... some skillllllllllllll.

I do admit that warhammer has it tactics only because the rules require it. charging etc and on and on because of the rules.

6 dice purple sun, dwarf player gone,
6 dice pit,, orge player done
6 dice etc....

Golden IF,,,,

Frankly, the biggest issue with imbalance in magic is coming from older books. None of the 8th edition army books have overbearing magic phases.

Its the thrice damned Teclis, Slann, and Daemon players. Abusing their older magic items and abilities.


The reckoning is coming, your books too shall be updated in time. And I shall feast on your tears. I hope Teclis dies in a hole, a very nasty smelly hole filled with Daemonettes.

Grey Templar


I myself have never used him nor will I ever. I have tasted a few games of power magic and have felt its wrath. I moved away from it so that my opp could enjoy there game vs my list. I tend to build fluff driven list and or friendly list.

Then again you reply does not account for the dread 13th over and over and over and over until he gets IF.

I am not to worried about and update to magic as I am to my army. GW has broken me ah many times with new codexs that trashed my army. Converted 30 grenadiers only to have a new ig dex. Converted up an entire daemonhunter army, still bent over it...

Now im running 6x lion chariots and facing an updated dex that might not allow 6x specials. The good thing is that I have keep the xtra bodies for the drivers and the horse so that I can reset as needed.

See how you feast on 6x lion chariots?

jk,, enjoyed your reply...

 Grey Templar wrote:
Frankly, the biggest issue with imbalance in magic is coming from older books. None of the 8th edition army books have overbearing magic phases.

Its the thrice damned Teclis, Slann, and Daemon players. Abusing their older magic items and abilities.


The reckoning is coming, your books too shall be updated in time. And I shall feast on your tears. I hope Teclis dies in a hole, a very nasty smelly hole filled with Daemonettes.

As a high elf player... i have to agree. Teclis is broken, even in his current dumbed down state. That's right. In 5th/6th the dude could cast from anywhere on the table and none of his spells had line of sight restrictions... so at least 7th was a step in the right direction for him


I actually don't have a problem with the big spells. I think the designers realized that rules favored big ass blocks of infantry and big grinding combats. Lots of smashing and death star action. Answer? Magic. I play elves, while its frustrating getting dwellered its usually my fault. Did i move within 24" of the caster before i should have? Why didn't i bring proper magic defense items? If you're letting throne of vines through you're making a pretty big mistake...

I also think Life magic is still one of the worse lores. Sure it has the sex appeal of dwellers, but every other spell is pretty lack luster. Stop the important ones, eat the wound regeneration then get back to killing. Much scary units tend to be semi-elites that suddenly get hit with several augments.

Ever played against inner circle knights with timewarp and speed of light? They'll win any combat they're thrown into. Or Bloodcrushers with Harmonic Convergence? What about High Elf spears with wyssans wild form? While the 6th spells tend to be nasty, they're not way OTT that it makes or breaks the game. Dwarf players complaining about Purple Sun frankly deserve it. I love watching all of my expensive units getting blasted away before i can even get near that castle.

And really if you're playing Vortexes right anyway they're not super extremely effective. Proper deployment should solve most problems. Yes you need to keep everything close to the BsB and General in low LD armies. But you can also stack units, stagger etc.


TLDR this stupid ramble of mine: While 6th spells are tough, they're not game-winners. They're simply a hard counter to big blocks of ranked up infantry and death stars.

Tarval wrote:
Now im running 6x lion chariots and facing an updated dex that might not allow 6x specials. The good thing is that I have keep the xtra bodies for the drivers and the horse so that I can reset as needed.

See how you feast on 6x lion chariots?

jk,, enjoyed your reply...

How do you get 6 chariots?