Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

confoo22 wrote:

Nobody has suggested this as a possibility. That listing does not use the term "in the army" therefore there is no reason to believe that the upgrade would be in any other unit other than the one it was listed under.

Again, the phrasing "in the army" is what I believe allows it to go against the rule. Not that just any upgrade can be passed to any unit. I've explained this several times in this thread.

Your opinion is that this is not explicit enough, that's what you've said several times in several different ways, in order to override the pg 90 rule. I understand why you think that way and I don't fault you for it, but I disagree with that assessment. This isn't a matter of understanding the rules, I understand them just fine, it's a matter of whether or not the rule as written countermands the established rules. I believe it does, you believe it doesn't. That doesn't mean that I'm dense or obtuse, it means that I have a different opinion.

I'm sorry, but you have suggested that as a possibility, when you stated that an option found in one unit entry (the Deathwing Command Squad entry) allows you to upgrade a squad member in a different squad (the Deathwing squad) that is exactly what you're suggesting. You may have 'explained it' several times in the thread, but you're not being consistent or making sense.

As for my example, I'd point out that the option for taking storm shields does not put any other limitation on it other than "any model" so why can you upgrade a model in a DW squad with an option that is not allowed for that unit and I can't do the same with one of my units? As I asked in my previous post, is it not a model? does it not have the required bolt pistol to swap? am I not paying the required points? Do I simply have to say the magic words "I believe the rule as written countermands the established rules" and hey presto! I'm allowed to upgrade any model with a storm shield? No. My argument is not that it is not explicit enough to override page 90, my argument is that it does not say what you think it says, it is not meant to override page 90.

You have a unit called a Deathwing Command Squad. It is comprised of five Deathwing Terminators (as per page 95) and has the option to upgrade one Deathwing Terminator from this squad to a Deathwing Champion (as per page 90 options are for this squad). So you replace one Deathwing Terminator with a Deathwing Champion.If you take a second Deathwing Command Squad you cannot choose to upgrade one of the Deathwing Terminators to a Deathwing Champion as you already have one in your army and are limited to one per army. This is how the rule works.

ItsPug wrote:

confoo22 wrote:

Nobody has suggested this as a possibility. That listing does not use the term "in the army" therefore there is no reason to believe that the upgrade would be in any other unit other than the one it was listed under.

Again, the phrasing "in the army" is what I believe allows it to go against the rule. Not that just any upgrade can be passed to any unit. I've explained this several times in this thread.

Your opinion is that this is not explicit enough, that's what you've said several times in several different ways, in order to override the pg 90 rule. I understand why you think that way and I don't fault you for it, but I disagree with that assessment. This isn't a matter of understanding the rules, I understand them just fine, it's a matter of whether or not the rule as written countermands the established rules. I believe it does, you believe it doesn't. That doesn't mean that I'm dense or obtuse, it means that I have a different opinion.

I'm sorry, but you have suggested that as a possibility, when you stated that an option found in one unit entry (the Deathwing Command Squad entry) allows you to upgrade a squad member in a different squad (the Deathwing squad) that is exactly what you're suggesting. You may have 'explained it' several times in the thread, but you're not being consistent or making sense.

As for my example, I'd point out that the option for taking storm shields does not put any other limitation on it other than "any model" so why can you upgrade a model in a DW squad with an option that is not allowed for that unit and I can't do the same with one of my units? As I asked in my previous post, is it not a model? does it not have the required bolt pistol to swap? am I not paying the required points? Do I simply have to say the magic words "I believe the rule as written countermands the established rules" and hey presto! I'm allowed to upgrade any model with a storm shield? No. My argument is not that it is not explicit enough to override page 90, my argument is that it does not say what you think it says, it is not meant to override page 90.

You have a unit called a Deathwing Command Squad. It is comprised of five Deathwing Terminators (as per page 95) and has the option to upgrade one Deathwing Terminator from this squad to a Deathwing Champion (as per page 90 options are for this squad). So you replace one Deathwing Terminator with a Deathwing Champion.If you take a second Deathwing Command Squad you cannot choose to upgrade one of the Deathwing Terminators to a Deathwing Champion as you already have one in your army and are limited to one per army. This is how the rule works.

This type of argument is called a plea to ignorance. You've found a ridiculous situation that I have not described, attached it to my argument and now are acting like that's the argument I've been making all along. I have been consistent in my argument as I've had to refute a couple of people making this same ridiculous argument. It's the presence of this particular wording that opens it up for interpretation. Period. Full stop.

Again, it's the use of the term "in the army" that makes me believe that this can go beyond the normal parameters of the rule. As far as I know, that is a unique descriptor for describing an upgrade that can only be used on one model in the entire army, so there's no clarification on how this wording affects the rules. I believe that as written it can countermand the rule on page 90, you believe that the rule on page 90 trumps it. You have one opinion on how it works, I have another.

If you have something new to add concerning this particular argument then add it, but don't create these wild hypothetical situations and then accuse me of advocating for it because that's not true.

In the army, in context, only means that if you upgrade one champion, you can not upgrade any others in the army.

It is the same situation as looking at the entry for a Vanguard Veteran Squad and using the option that says "Any model can take: Melta Bombs...X points" and using that to take meltabombs on a dreadnought, a Librarian in Terminator Armor, or any Death Company model from the BA Codex. (Which of course, you can not do).

 DeathReaper wrote:
In the army, in context, only means that if you upgrade one champion, you can not upgrade any others in the army.

It is the same situation as looking at the entry for a Vanguard Veteran Squad and using the option that says "Any model can take: Melta Bombs...X points" and using that to take meltabombs on a dreadnought, a Librarian in Terminator Armor, or any Death Company model from the BA Codex. (Which of course, you can not do).

Holy crap, I literally just addressed this argument. This is a plea to ignorance, that is not the situation I'm describing. If the Command Squad said "One Space Marine in the army may be upgraded to company champion" then THAT would be the same situation. OF COURSE I don't believe that a listing that says Any model means any model in the army, because it's doesn't SAY in the army. No other listing I've ever run across uses that descriptor which leaves it open for interpretation as to how it affects the normal rules.

Holy Crap! Any model/One in the army, there is no difference. Any model Literally means any model. they do not need to say in the army, because the army list section does that for you. Of course the unit is in your army, as you are allowed to field units from the codex in your army...

Do not take things out of context. Doing so leads people to believe you can upgrade things from other units, which is not true.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Holy Crap! Any model/One in the army, there is no difference. Any model Literally means any model. they do not need to say in the army, because the army list section does that for you. Of course the unit is in your army, as you are allowed to field units from the codex in your army...

Do not take things out of context. Doing so leads people to believe you can upgrade things from other units, which is not true.

You want to talk context then let's talk context.

In the context of the Vanguard Veterans entry the term "Any model" due to the established rules for options can be thought to be followed by the term "in the unit". All codexes pretty much work this way. The Dark Angels codex is the same, which is why when it says "One Deathwing Terminator" I do not believe that it means any Terminator in the army, because of that phantom wording. Keep in mind that I'm using this description as a way to describe a ruleset and am not suggesting that every upgrade in every codex should be thought of to have the term "in the unit" attached to it.

Now, in the context of the Deathwing Command Squad I believe that these phantom words are essentially replaced because the term "in the army" is present, which gets more specific than upgrades usually are. You must purchase this unit before you are allowed to purchase the upgrade, therefore it is listed under the command squad along with the Champion's stat line. Your interpretation is that the unit essentially says "One Deathwing Terminator (in the unit) in the army". You may be right, but the fact is that it's a matter of opinion. Again, this isn't to say that those words are literally there, just how I believe you are viewing the rule.

When you keep throwing out the term "in context" you're saying that because of the rule on page 90 this rule can only ever be ascribed to the Deathwing Command Squad because that's the correct context while I'm saying that the context is that you must have the command squad first before the upgrade becomes available.

And you are ignoring the context of the option being only listed for that particular squad.

Do not make this mistake.

 DeathReaper wrote:
And you are ignoring the context of the option being only listed for that particular squad.

Do not make this mistake.

I'm not ignoring it, I'm saying that the context changes due to the wording.

Options are specific to the unit they are an option for.

The wording does not change this, it is just telling you that only one can be upgraded, and if you upgrade the one from this unit you may not upgrade any other from any other unit.

The options belong to the Deathwing Command Squad, not any other unit.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Options are specific to the unit they are an option for.

The wording does not change this, it is just telling you that only one can be upgraded, and if you upgrade the one from this unit you may not upgrade any other from any other unit.

The options belong to the Deathwing Command Squad, not any other unit.

I get it. You don't believe the wording is strong enough to override the rule. I think it is. I've explained my reasoning, you've explained yours.

Repetition isn't an argument.

Does anyone have any alternate examples of upgrades that use the specific wording "in the army"?

confoo22 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Options are specific to the unit they are an option for.

The wording does not change this, it is just telling you that only one can be upgraded, and if you upgrade the one from this unit you may not upgrade any other from any other unit.

The options belong to the Deathwing Command Squad, not any other unit.

I get it. You don't believe the wording is strong enough to override the rule. I think it is. I've explained my reasoning, you've explained yours.

Repetition isn't an argument.

Well prove that the Option can be applied to a different unit.

Rules Citations are needed.

confoo22 wrote:

This type of argument is called a plea to ignorance. You've found a ridiculous situation that I have not described, attached it to my argument and now are acting like that's the argument I've been making all along. I have been consistent in my argument as I've had to refute a couple of people making this same ridiculous argument. It's the presence of this particular wording that opens it up for interpretation. Period. Full stop.

Again, it's the use of the term "in the army" that makes me believe that this can go beyond the normal parameters of the rule. As far as I know, that is a unique descriptor for describing an upgrade that can only be used on one model in the entire army, so there's no clarification on how this wording affects the rules. I believe that as written it can countermand the rule on page 90, you believe that the rule on page 90 trumps it. You have one opinion on how it works, I have another.

If you have something new to add concerning this particular argument then add it, but don't create these wild hypothetical situations and then accuse me of advocating for it because that's not true.

And what you've just committed is an argument from fallacy. Oops!

I've actually found exactly that ridicuous argument, an argument where you are putting forth that because an option for a unit, which can be taken multiple times, states only one terminator in the army may be upgraded to a champion, and you insist against all logic and context that this wording is specific enough to allow another unit, without this option, to take it.

How is "one (specific type of)model in the army may take" under a units options specfic enough to override the rules on unit options whereas "any model may take" under those same options is not. Your argument is illogical, out of context and inconsistent.

Selicate wrote:
Does anyone have any alternate examples of upgrades that use the specific wording "in the army"?

Blood Angels Chapter Banner is in the option for two different units (Sanguinary Guard and Honour Guard), and is also listed as one per army. I may be wrong, but when the Blood Angels codex first came out nobody made the ridiculous arguement that this overrode the options section on page 81. and even if they did, GW thought it was clear enough that they didn't FAQ it.

Alright Pug, I'm not going to respond to ridiculous posts anymore. I've posted the same argument over and over and instead of acknowledging it you just call them ridiculous and illogical without demonstrating how they are.

The argument boils down to the fact that you don't think the wording is strong enough and I think it might be. You can't expressly prove that its not by rules examples, only by opinion, so instead you resort to insulting the argument itself. This is the worst kind of debating and what makes it worse is that you are only repeating yourself over and over again except for when you stop to insult the argument.

If you have something new to add then add it and I'll respond to that, but I have better things to do than respond to a someone who only wants to shame and bully others into their way of thinking when they can't expressly prove that they are correct.

So, again, here is my argument. It's the entire scope of my argument. Any situation not described is not my argument and should be discounted:

Because the listings use the terminology "in the army" to describe which model is allowed the upgrade I believe that this allows you to choose one model in the army that fits the descriptor. I believe that, as written, this wording has the ability to trump the general rule that upgrades are only for that particular unit. This is a unique descriptor as far as I know as I have yet to see anyone post a codex entry that also uses it but has been clarified to mean only models in that unit. Most often the descriptor One per army is used in unit listings to describe an upgrade that can only be taken one time per army. The reason it is listed in the command squad is because you must purchase a command squad in order to take it.

I AM NOT SAYING YOU CAN USE THIS ARGUMENT ANYWHERE ELSE OR FOR ANY OTHER UNIT AS THIS IS A UNIQUE DESCRIPTOR AND IS NOT PRESENT IN ANY OTHER UNIT LISTING THAT I'VE SEEN.

You disagree, you believe that the rule on page 90 is still in effect and therefore the upgrade is only for that particular unit. I understand fully why you think that and you've made your argument in several different times in several different ways, but you haven't said anything new concerning the descriptor itself since you said that you think the pg 90 rule is still in effect. Because this is a unique descriptor you can't find an example of this being officially ruled on anywhere so you continue to express the same opinion except you're becoming increasingly insulting and hyperbolic in order to overcome your lack of hard evidence against it.

People can make their own decisions based on examples and theories posted here in this thread, and I'm sure most will agree with you as that is the traditional manner of things. If you have a new, logical argument to add then I'm all ears, but if it's more opinion and hyperbolic ridiculousness then save yourself some time because you're starting to look ridiculous.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DeathReaper wrote:

confoo22 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Options are specific to the unit they are an option for.

The wording does not change this, it is just telling you that only one can be upgraded, and if you upgrade the one from this unit you may not upgrade any other from any other unit.

The options belong to the Deathwing Command Squad, not any other unit.

I get it. You don't believe the wording is strong enough to override the rule. I think it is. I've explained my reasoning, you've explained yours.

Repetition isn't an argument.

Well prove that the Option can be applied to a different unit.

Rules Citations are needed.

I've given several examples of units that do have upgrades for the other units so if that were the ability it would not be an isolated example. As I've said though, the descriptor is unique and would seem to allow it, but I've never seen it anywhere else. It's a unique wording that can be interpreted in a couple of different ways, therefore it'll probably need a final ruling directly from GW before I'm fully satisfied.

confoo22 wrote:
Alright Pug, I'm not going to respond to ridiculous posts anymore. I've posted the same argument over and over and instead of acknowledging it you just call them ridiculous and illogical without demonstrating how they are.

Just as you also stated that my argument of using the wording "any model may take" was ridiculous without stating how. In both cases the options are listed under the units options, so either they both apply only to the unit or they both do not.

confoo22 wrote:
The argument boils down to the fact that you don't think the wording is strong enough and I think it might be. You can't expressly prove that its not by rules examples, only by opinion, so instead you resort to insulting the argument itself. This is the worst kind of debating and what makes it worse is that you are only repeating yourself over and over again except for when you stop to insult the argument.

confoo22 wrote:

You've found a ridiculous situation that I have not described, attached it to my argument and now are acting like that's the argument I've been making all along.

I insulted your argument AFTER you insulted mine. if this truly is the worst kind of debating, I apologise, but I descended to this level after you yourself did..

confoo22 wrote:

Because the listings use the terminology "in the army" to describe which model is allowed the upgrade I believe that this allows you to choose one model in the army that fits the descriptor.

As does "any model" GW do not qualify this in any way in the sentence, the only qualifier is the fact that this option is under unit options and so applies to the unit unless specifically noted otherwise. As neither this option nor the Deathwing Champion option specifically state that you can take this option on another unit you cannot.

confoo22 wrote:

This is a unique descriptor as far as I know as I have yet to see anyone post a codex entry that also uses it but has been clarified to mean only models in that unit

Blood Angels Chapter Banner, Grey Slayers and their standard, BT Chaplain and holy relics, the list goes on and on. And as I've pointed out repeatedly, in all instances where a modal in a unit can take an option, and that option is limited to one per army, it will state so in the unit entry or in the rules for the item. So in the case of a Grey Slayers unit it gives the option to take one standard in the army. This was never FAQ'd because it was clear that it was an option for a grey slayers unit, and not for any other unit in the codex. None of these have been FAQ'd to state that yes, as per the first page of the army list, a units options are options for the unit. Why? I don't think its because GW feel that you should be able to take one option from a squad and apply it to another, its probably not been FAQ'd because they think its clear enough.

For the rule to work as you state you'd need the same wording as the IG codex has for conscripts and Chenkov. In case you're unaware of this, Chenkov is an upgrade for a Platoon Command Squad in one of the Platoons in your army. upon taking Chenkov your conscripts gain the ability to buy an upgrade, which is then listed under their options

OR

For the rule to be not under the Command Squads Options but listed as a special rule stating that "If you include a Deathwing Command Squad in your army, one Deathwing Terminator in the army, in a unit of your choice, may be upgraded to..." aka Sanguinor, Astorath, etc

confoo22 wrote:

I've given several examples of units that do have upgrades for the other units so if that were the ability it would not be an isolated example

Except we've pointed out that in all those cases it is specifically stated that these options apply to other units, which in this case it doesn't.

confoo22 wrote:

It's a unique wording that can be interpreted in a couple of different ways

Except its not a unique wording, "one X in your army" is used for almost all the upgrade characters in the IG codex, as well as the examples pointed out above. and it possibly could be interpreted in different ways were it not for the context which is listing the options available to a specific unit, with nothing to override this

Alright, let me take a step back and stop getting insulted by internet arguing.

I apologize as well, I just feel like I've made this argument a couple of times in this post and I hate repeating myself so I'm sort of working myself up. I'm taking it too personally, so let me sum it up with this previous post which I think crystalizes what I'm saying.

This is in response to DeathReaper who also saying I'm pulling it out of context:

"In the context of the Vanguard Veterans entry the term "Any model" due to the established rules for options can be thought to be followed by the term "in the unit". All codexes pretty much work this way. The Dark Angels codex is the same, which is why when it says "One Deathwing Terminator" I do not believe that it means any Terminator in the army, because of that phantom wording. Keep in mind that I'm using this description as a way to describe a ruleset and am not suggesting that every upgrade in every codex should be thought of to have the term "in the unit" attached to it.

Now, in the context of the Deathwing Command Squad I believe that these phantom words are essentially replaced because the term "in the army" is present, which gets more specific than upgrades usually are. You must purchase this unit before you are allowed to purchase the upgrade, therefore it is listed under the command squad along with the Champion's stat line. Your interpretation is that the unit essentially says "One Deathwing Terminator (in the unit) in the army". You may be right, but the fact is that it's a matter of opinion. Again, this isn't to say that those words are literally there, just how I believe you are viewing the rule. "

As for your examples, I don't own those codexes so no, I'm not aware of the exact language. I was hoping someone would post something similar, so if you can post the exact language that would be helpful. Does it say "One model in the army" or does it say "you may have one in the army" because those sentences can be interpreted to mean different things. I'd also like to see the exact language for Sanguinor and Astorath. All the codexes I've looked through tend to use the term "one per army"

As for "insulting your argument", I've said several times that your argument is fine and I understand where you're coming from, but I didn't agree without further evidence. I called the situation you were insinuating I was arguing in favor of ridiculous because that's absolutely not what I was saying as I hope I've demonstrated.

I don't have a problem with someone disagreeing with this argument it's more the endless repeating of "Well that's OBVIOUSLY not the case so your argument is stupid" without any new facts thrown in that was making me more upset. I'm open to new examples if you can give me the exact wording, but you'll forgive me if I don't just take your word for it as you obviously have a bias in one direction.

In the words of Stephen Colbert: You, sir, are a formidable opponent.

confoo22 wrote:

"In the context of the Vanguard Veterans entry the term "Any model" due to the established rules for options can be thought to be followed by the term "in the unit". All codexes pretty much work this way. The Dark Angels codex is the same, which is why when it says "One Deathwing Terminator" I do not believe that it means any Terminator in the army, because of that phantom wording. Keep in mind that I'm using this description as a way to describe a ruleset and am not suggesting that every upgrade in every codex should be thought of to have the term "in the unit" attached to it.

But that is precisely what you should be thinking of. The options listed are under the heading of the unit, and as per page 90 are options that you may select for that unit. My point is that with every other instance where a model or unit affects the choices another may take, it is not listed in the units options, but the special rules of the unit and it is clearly stated which units it affects, and if it is an optional extra that costs points it is listed in the receiving units options

Sanguinor allows you to randomly upgrade "one sergeant in the army" after deployment utilising the special rule Sanguinor's Blessing, its a set of statline increases, this costs nothing and cannot be purchased for a specific squad so is not listed as an option under their unit entry

Astorath removes the limit of one death company unit in the army with the special rule Redeemer of the Lost, as well as increasing the chances of Red Thirst under the rule Shadow of the Primarch, again these cost nothing and are not optional so not listed in the units codex entry under options

Chenkov allows you to upgrade Conscript squads with Send in the Next Wave, again this is listed under his special rules and as an option in the Conscript entry. this is optional and costs points so is listed in both units profiles

BT Chaplain has the special rule Reclusiam Command Squad, which allows the standard bearer in the command squad to select the holy relic from the wargear list, access to which is allowed under the command squads options (assuming they have permission to take it as this an upgrade listed as being from a selection of items that you are allowed only one of in the army.

confoo22 wrote:

Now, in the context of the Deathwing Command Squad I believe that these phantom words are essentially replaced because the term "in the army" is present, which gets more specific than upgrades usually are.

I understand, but that is where you are going wrong, it has to override the (for this unit) part sppecifically. The system of rules GW uses is the same system as Common Law, which means something is only overriden when specifically done so, and the setting of a precendent binds all future choices in the same way. To use a few examples

(1) units may not launch an assault in the turn they disembark
(2) units may not launch an assault on the turn they come on from reserves

Should a unit be embarked on an assault vehicle, they will override (1) but not (2)
Should a unit have an ability to assault from reserve but are embarked on a non assault vehicle they will override (2) but not (1)
Should a unit have an ability to assault from reserve and be embarked upon an assault vehicle they override both (1) and (2) and may assault

So by listing the option for the upgrade to a Champion under the unit options and not the special rules GW have effectively said as, you put it "One Deathwing Terminator (in the unit) in the army" but there is nothing then that specifically overides the (in the unit) part. If it did not make sense, for example if a DW Command squad had the option to "upgrade one Black Knight in the army" to have FNP listed under their unit options there would be confusion as there are no Black Knights in the DW command squad so "upgrade one Black Knight (in this unit) in the army" makes no sense. but "upgrade one Deathwing Terminator (in this unit) in the army" does.

Simply put,no.

The DW and RW champs can only be purchased for their respective command squads and can only be purchased once for the whole list.

First, I totally see confoo22's argument, and I want to commend him on doing his best to stay civilized, especially since nolzur was being such a

The problem I see is that the unit composition of a command squad and a deathwing terminator squad include "Deathwing Terminator". So when the DW command squad refers to a Deathwing Terminator, it is referring to its own unit composition, regardless of that model being able to appear in another entry.

For example, if I have 2 DA tactical squads of 10 men each, "For every 10 models in the squad, one Space Marine may take a" heavy/special weapon. It does not explicitly state the Space Marine I give a special weapon to must be in the same squad. If I show up to play with a squad of 10 bolter boys and a squad of 6 bolter boys and 4 plasma guns, how are you going to react to my list?

Nivek5150 wrote:
If I show up to play with a squad of 10 bolter boys and a squad of 6 bolter boys and 4 plasma guns, how are you going to react to my list?

By referring you to page 90, and asking you to correct the list.

Codex Dark Angels page 90 wrote:
7) Options: This section lists all of the upgrades you may add to the unit if you wish to do so, alongside the associated points cost for each.

Exactly.

confoo22 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
prove that the Option can be applied to a different unit.

Rules Citations are needed.

I've given several examples of units that do have upgrades for the other units so if that were the ability it would not be an isolated example. As I've said though, the descriptor is unique and would seem to allow it, but I've never seen it anywhere else. It's a unique wording that can be interpreted in a couple of different ways, therefore it'll probably need a final ruling directly from GW before I'm fully satisfied.

Maybe I missed them, can you reference your examples.

Plus ItsPug gave you the rules for options:

ItsPug wrote:
page 90.

Codex Dark Angels page 90 wrote:
7) Options: This section lists all of the upgrades you may add to the unit if you wish to do so, alongside the associated points cost for each.

Therefore options are added to the unit.