Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Unless all of your troop slots are full, why would you ever take special weapon squads over veterans? They can both take three special weapons, so for the 35 point difference veterans get:

*+1 Balistic Skill. This makes it worth it to begin with tbh.
*+1 Leadership
* Four extra bodies
* Access to chimera

Aside from why you'd have unmeched guard at all, what the hell is the point of special weapon squads?

because them can have special weapons, thats why.

wait i am full of derp you mean guard lol

Three reasons:

1) Cost. Usually SWS get flamers (BS 3 doesn't matter) to get an extremely cheap scoring unit that often rides in a Vendetta most of the game, and even with the "better" guns price can still be an issue. It's quite possible to be in a situation where points are tight and upgrading to a veteran squad means you're forced to drop an entire unit to free up those extra points.

2) 3x demo charges. Not possible with veterans.

3) Outflanking with Al'rahem. Veterans might be better, but they can't join the platoon. If you want special weapon spam outside of the four slots in the PCS you're stuck with SWS.

Overall they're a weak unit though, and rarely used outside of those few specific situations.

 BryllCream wrote:

Aside from why you'd have unmeched guard at all, what the hell is the point of special weapon squads?

That first comment.

Furthermore, SWS are cheaper and a part of a platoon. They don't occupy a force org slot if you've already purchased a platoon.
And they can take 3 demo charges.

Expendability really. Sometimes there are situations where you really don't want to send your vets because you know they won't be able to do enough damage, whereas, SWSs can soften up a target for your vets.

Going on with the same idea, you shouldn't be affraid to grav-chute these guys out a vendetta and worry about mishapping or not. This puts your special weapons in prime position, and keeps your flying transport flying.

 Peregrine wrote:
Three reasons:

1) Cost. Usually SWS get flamers (BS 3 doesn't matter) to get an extremely cheap scoring unit that often rides in a Vendetta most of the game, and even with the "better" guns price can still be an issue. It's quite possible to be in a situation where points are tight and upgrading to a veteran squad means you're forced to drop an entire unit to free up those extra points.

2) 3x demo charges. Not possible with veterans.

3) Outflanking with Al'rahem. Veterans might be better, but they can't join the platoon. If you want special weapon spam outside of the four slots in the PCS you're stuck with SWS.

Overall they're a weak unit though, and rarely used outside of those few specific situations.

Pretty much answered my questions. Cheers

Pitching them out the back of vendttas with 3x flamers is probably the most useful tactic for them. Consider them 50 point bombs that have a chance to score an objective or linebreaker if they survive.

I wouldnt run them with anything more expensive (except demo charges for lulz), as theyre too fragile and unskilled. Veterans are better for meltas or plasma. Snipers and grenade launchers are garbage and nothing should be carrying them anyways.

The question's pretty much already been answered, but it more or less comes down to flamers. If you're not using BS4, there's no point paying for it.

Makes sense. In my many thought experiments to see what could make foot guard work, these guys came up and I just thought "...why the hell wouldn't you take vets?". Then I thought "Why wouldn't I give those vets chimeras?".

Then bam, mechvets.

Its not take Special Weapons Squads or Vets, it Take Special Weapon Squads AND Vets.

Actually a bunch of SWS with Grenade Launchers can be very deadly to Swarm Armies.

I suppose there's also efficiency to think about. The carrier cost for a SWS is half that of a vet squad. Not only is it absolutely cheaper (as Peregrine mentions with regards to fiddling with the remaining points in a list), but you can get more firepower over all.

If you're already bringing two infantry platoons, it costs you only 260 points for 6 meltagun hits. To accomplish that with veterans, you need to spend 300 points. Yeah, not a big deal, and certainly not a reason to take them in and of themselves, but it's something.

Also, KP missions are now only 1 in 6 rather than 1 in 3, so MSU is a lot less risky. Given that the number of missions with multiple objectives went from 1 in 3 to 1 in 2, it further reinforces the point of having more, smaller units.

That said, I still wouldn't bother, but not from a firepower angle. My problem is that SWSs are like HWSs - way to easy to kill before you get very much use out of them.

 Ailaros wrote:
The carrier cost for a SWS is half that of a vet squad.

Depending on how you define "carrier". If you also include the Chimera/Vendetta that is required to deliver a melta unit effectively then the carrier costs are much closer, and the veterans give you better point efficiency.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:
The carrier cost for a SWS is half that of a vet squad.

Depending on how you define "carrier". If you also include the Chimera/Vendetta that is required to deliver a melta unit effectively then the carrier costs are much closer, and the veterans give you better point efficiency.

I don't know, I'd say that you take the vendetta for the vendetta first, and the transport capacity is just a bonus, whereas the chimera is a must have for a vetran squad.

But yeah, it does close the gap a bit.

SWS are for when you want 3 demo charges for some reason, and allow you to fill a valk with less models if you don't have all the models you need yet. Honestly, I'd put a PCS in a valk before a SWS.

I think it also depends on your armies theme to. I am working on a “Russian Guard” themed army that will be mostly Infantry supported by a trio of Russ’s. I am planning on using a lot of Special Weapons Squads with Flamers and Demo Charges along with Conscripts. The Flamers and Demolition Dogs will probably look more cool than be effective, but I am working on coolness factor more that competition at this point.

You can also compare it to infantry squads as well. If you remove 10 points for the 2 extra guys, a pair of special weapons squads would cost you only 10 points more than an infantry squad, but let you carry SIX TIMES the number of special weapons.

Taking SWS's lets you take x3 demo charge units for shenanigans.

Other than that, you want to make a fluffy IG list, and play it like how it would be "in real life" essentially where special weapon equipped guardsmen would be in small teams that would go where they were needed.

Outside of narrative play or demo charge shenanigans, Vets and even PCS's are superior for a minimum increase in cost.

You take them for the chance to drop 3 demo charges on a paladin squad. It'll probably never happen, but when it does...

"That's 8 hits, but it's gonna ignore armor, ignore multiwound, ignore FNP, and wound on 2's. It did cost me 95 points, though. How much is a paladin again?"

...*glee!*

I've explored SWSs with demo charges and as potent as they can be, unless you're outflanking with them it's unlikely they'll do anything at all. If you explain to your opponent that this tiny squad of T3 5+ dudes has an incredible damage potential, they'll die stupid fast.

SWS are really useless. If you want three lascannons, get a goddamn Vendetta. Not only is it cheaper, but it's a flyer, can have two heavy Bolters, and the cannons are friggin' twin linked. Why the hell are Heavy Weapons squads even in the Codex, anyway?

I've thought about using them in friendly games with foot guard and hiding them behind a tank or something.

Let's face it, your opponent WILL get close eventually.

And when he charges your tank and goes "HA! What do you have to say to that?" I point to my little greeting committee and ask him if he would mind holding my large blast template for me

It will almost never work, but that one time it does will be glorious.

 BryllCream wrote:
I've explored SWSs with demo charges and as potent as they can be, unless you're outflanking with them it's unlikely they'll do anything at all. If you explain to your opponent that this tiny squad of T3 5+ dudes has an incredible damage potential, they'll die stupid fast.

In an Al'Rahem platoon these guys actually are pretty good. Two demo units will easily kill whatever the guy left in his backfield to guard his home objectives.

 797th Red Tigers wrote:
SWS are really useless. If you want three lascannons, get a goddamn Vendetta. Not only is it cheaper, but it's a flyer, can have two heavy Bolters, and the cannons are friggin' twin linked. Why the hell are Heavy Weapons squads even in the Codex, anyway?

HWS =/= SWS


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
I've thought about using them in friendly games with foot guard and hiding them behind a tank or something.

Let's face it, your opponent WILL get close eventually.

And when he charges your tank and goes "HA! What do you have to say to that?" I point to my little greeting committee and ask him if he would mind holding my large blast template for me

It will almost never work, but that one time it does will be glorious.

What's a friendly game?

Is that like, when you play and DONT try to massacre your opponent with such a sweeping defeat that they have to change armies out of shame?



...Doesn't sound like my cup of tea.

Really the cost os the SWSs is higher because to have them you need a PCS and two Squads and form a Platoon. You can now start taking SWSs, HWSs, and further Squads (up to 5). They are not a seperate selection, you have to have a Platoon to take them. The OP really comes across like they do not know this so I want to make this crystal clear. There is no comparison.

Vets are cheaper in every comparison unless your taking Vets AND a Platoon. And really, you should be doing one or the other. Your wasting points mixing and matching.

They're not really useful. I suspect Cruddace wanted to make them a useful choice for a hoard of guard but then went half/full slow when he priced out Veteran squads and made almost every other build of guard not as effective.

Overall it's a mistake. Veteran squads should be more expensive or have different weapon options or something, but as it stands, no reason to take SWS. Stick with Veterans.

 BlkTom wrote:
Really the cost os the SWSs is higher because to have them you need a PCS and two Squads and form a Platoon. You can now start taking SWSs, HWSs, and further Squads (up to 5). They are not a seperate selection, you have to have a Platoon to take them. The OP really comes across like they do not know this so I want to make this crystal clear. There is no comparison.

...



What is this "d6" i've been reading about?