Mantic Games - Sci-fi News & Rumors: Sci-Fi Zombies released.

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**Alfndrate**

scarletsquig wrote:
So guys, how about dreadball?

Who has played a game?

I have. It is fun.

I haven't yet :-\ Not due to a lack of trying, but due to my dad not wanting to play with unpainted minis (the sly old coot won't even help me!). So I'm looking to finish painting up the C-Level Browns (Or possibly Brauns?) and the Orx Steelers from the Planet Burgh-412. I'm really excited to play too

**nkelsch**

scarletsquig wrote:
^ Glad you managed to get it sorted out, shame about the KS fees.

I think eating the fees is reasonable, but something to be aware of. Amazon takes 5% off the top so when we are talking 10$ figures, they are really 9.50$ because Kickstarter takes .50 cents.

**decker_cky**

Might not factor into the refund, but BOTH amazon and kickstarter (different companies) take 5% off the top, so when you put in $10, mantic gets about $9. Later payments with paypal would just be 5% off the top.

**Pacific**

Azazelx wrote:
Doesn't have to be a pedant. It seems to be a combination of a rare(ish) circumstance RAW getting queried, then clarified and confirmed by Jake as RAW, then having had the new S2 Judawan team able to exploit what was previously a rareish occurance. Living rules get changed and adapted as needed, but it seems to need to come from Jake. I'd argue it's unlikely to be an issue for friendly games, but when tournaments (and prizes!) come into play...

Yes I think you definitely need to clarify with whoever you are playing. Can't understand anyone choosing to play it as RAW however, and I should hope that the 2nd edition of the rules will clarify for those who put "WELL THAT'S WHAT IT SAYS IN THE RULEBOOK LOL" above what is really very basic common sense, and the game being fun.

**OrlandotheTechnicoloured**

nkelsch wrote:
I finally got a response from a person who works at Mantic who Stewart passed my case on to.

I am returning my damaged Season 2 Product for a refund (which cost me 40$ in shipping for 53$ in product and returning season 1 box would have cost around 100$) and getting a refund for the rest. I hope their math matches up to mine in the end. They are working on figuring out a refund price.

Considering I pledged 450$ + 110$ Paypal.
-50$ for battlefoam
-157$ for season 1 shipment
=353$
-5% for Kickstarter fees which I have to eat:
My refund SHOULD be 335.35$ for the returned Season 2 and the unfulfilled season 3 stuff.

That leaves me the core game to play with my Orx team and I can deal away the other 3 season 1 teams to other people who want to deal with the clean-up. If anyone wants some MVPs or Forgefathers/Veermyn/Corporation from season 1, I can cut you a good deal, even better if you are local.

My only advice is for people on the fence about stuff, like the KOW sculpts and BoGo issues... Return Shipping with tracking to the UK is expensive from the US. If you are not 100% happy with the sculpt and are on the fence or they haven't revealed it before shipping, I would recommend canceling your pledge and buying it retail where you can see it hands on and return it easily. Once it is shipped to you, the return shipping cost may be so high you are going to be stuck with it. It is going to change how I deal with Kickstarters which are international to me in the US.

Remember you not only have to account for the KS fees (about 5%) you also need to account for the Amazon Payment fee on top of that (about another 5%), so total will be about 10%

**nkelsch**

OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:

Remember you not only have to account for the KS fees (about 5%) you also need to account for the Amazon Payment fee on top of that (about another 5%), so total will be about 10%

Good to know. It is almost like it is 'BETTER' to take pledges outside Kickstarter for the company.

**decker_cky**

nkelsch wrote:
It is almost like it is 'BETTER' to take pledges outside Kickstarter for the company.

It absolutely is. The totals don't contribute to stretch goals unless the company wants them to, and they get much better value for the money contributed. 5% for the promotion provided by Kickstarter is probably worth it though.

**Zweischneid**

decker_cky wrote:

It absolutely is. The totals don't contribute to stretch goals unless the company wants them to, and they get much better value for the money contributed. 5% for the promotion provided by Kickstarter is probably worth it though.

5% is awesome.

Even if you have your own online store, Paypal and/or Credit Card companies will take as nearly as much. And you've got the hosting, online advertisement, etc.. .

Hell, eBay takes like... what? 10% 12% these days?

I wish I could sell my old 40K junk on Kickstarter for "only" 5%

[edit]

For the UK at least, Paypal is 3.4% plus a flat 20p per transaction. It's a teeny bit better for Mantic if you pay by Paypal as opposed to by Kickstarter. But it's not much.

**Azazelx**

Pacific wrote:
Azazelx wrote:
Doesn't have to be a pedant. It seems to be a combination of a rare(ish) circumstance RAW getting queried, then clarified and confirmed by Jake as RAW, then having had the new S2 Judawan team able to exploit what was previously a rareish occurance. Living rules get changed and adapted as needed, but it seems to need to come from Jake. I'd argue it's unlikely to be an issue for friendly games, but when tournaments (and prizes!) come into play...

Yes I think you definitely need to clarify with whoever you are playing. Can't understand anyone choosing to play it as RAW however, and I should hope that the 2nd edition of the rules will clarify for those who put "WELL THAT'S WHAT IT SAYS IN THE RULEBOOK LOL" above what is really very basic common sense, and the game being fun.

Tournaments, mate. Tournaments. Not those between a bunch of mates, but organised ones that have a bunch of strangers playing to WIN a PRIZE (money, loot, etc). The nature of the game points it towards those kinds of tourneys with ultra-competitive players.

**Alfndrate**

So... I started to clean up my Dreadball box... and I have to say, I'm none too thrilled with the level of mold lines that I got on my Orx and Humans...

There were large mold lines on the shoulders of the Orx, and the slightly opened hand is literally half mold line... The humans have mold lines on their helmets, down their sides, like you can see where the model was practically "pressed" together (or at least where the molds were). It's making it frustrating because these lines are for the most part, in hard to reach places with my hobby knife.

**Duncan_Idaho**

Use files, that's anyway the best way to clean up miniatures.

Kickstarter is a 100% daughter company of Amazon and the extra 5% only apply for American customers that used their Amazon account, everyone else using his Amazon account does not get the 5% slapped on.

**CptJake**

Amazon has yet to add or 'slap on' any percentage to any pledge I make. They may take some percentage out of my total before passing the balance on to the kickstarting company, but they don't 'slap on' anything.

**Krinsath**

CptJake wrote:
Amazon has yet to add or 'slap on' any percentage to any pledge I make. They may take some percentage out of my total before passing the balance on to the kickstarting company, but they don't 'slap on' anything.

That would be what he's referring to; that the money that actually gets to the company is decreased by Amazon for payment processing as well as KickStarter for the hosting and platform charges. Since they're really the same company this translates to Amazon taking 8-10% (the rate for payment processing varies) of the pledge before the company you pledged it to sees it.

So in the case of DreadBall, Mantic probably saw closer to $660k (instead of 728k) after those fees were taken out. It's something that every company who wants to do a KickStarter has to account for, otherwise they will quickly drive themselves into the red.

**Zweischneid**

Duncan_Idaho wrote:

Kickstarter is a 100% daughter company of Amazon .

Umm.... just no.

It's not. And I doubt Amazon would even be interested.

Kickstarter... in its entire life-time as a Website of some 4 years now has raised a total of 633 Million Dollars across all successful projects ever on Kickstarter (which is slightly less than Games Workshop's revenue over the past 4 years, which adds up to about 756 Million USD very roughly). 5% of those 633 Million are some 32 Million Dollars Kickstarter.com has made in the past 4 years (before costs, taxes, anything else).

Amazon makes some 54 Million Dollars in sales per Day (!) And that is an old number from 2009. If anything, Amazon has only grown since then.

Jeff Bezos is not above spending more than 32 Million USD "life-time-income-of-Kickstarter.com" on some of his pointless personal side-projects.

**RiTides**

Z is correct, kickstarter is not a daughter company, nor do US-based pledgers get charged an extra 5%.

**Alpharius**

Weird!

I wonder how Duncan screwed that one up so badly!

I'd be curious to see what his source was for that...

**Krinsath**

Eh, I thought the same thing so at least we were wrong together! Solidarity!

Trying to remember where I saw that now though, because I thought it before Duncan said so.

**Alfndrate**

Duncan_Idaho wrote:
Use files, that's anyway the best way to clean up miniatures.

Restic can handle a good filing? I thought it shredded it to pieces... I mean no matter what I do, I'm losing half the detail in my Orx hands, and some of the detail on my enforcers... I mean I know they're miniatures, but I'm putting in a heck of a lot of work for 10 minis that amount to a board game in my house (that's how I marketed it to my dad, who thinks "wargames" are too complex)

**nkelsch**

Krinsath wrote:
Eh, I thought the same thing so at least we were wrong together! Solidarity!

Trying to remember where I saw that now though, because I thought it before Duncan said so.

Kickstarter takes 5% of the funds raised. Amazon charges an additional 3–5%

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kickstarter

Tho the referenced Kickstarter FAQ page is now a 404

**CptJake**

nkelsch wrote:
Krinsath wrote:
Eh, I thought the same thing so at least we were wrong together! Solidarity!

Trying to remember where I saw that now though, because I thought it before Duncan said so.

Kickstarter takes 5% of the funds raised. Amazon charges an additional 3–5%

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kickstarter

Tho the referenced Kickstarter FAQ page is now a 404

Yet folks with an Amazon account do NOT have any additional charges 'slapped on'. All these charges are overhead the kickstarting company needs to take into account, not a backer.

**Krinsath**

In the scope of a refund, however, they are something you need to account for if you're told you have to eat the fees (which is somewhat fair as Mantic did not actually get that money in the first place). This is context where the comment about being "slapped on" exists; if nkelsch is being told he won't be refunded for fees, then the extra % represented by the Amazon fees does raise a question mark. Certainly something to inquire about if that wasn't clear in the information Mantic sent (which it might have been). Otherwise one could be expecting X and instead get X*97% and, since someone getting a refund is typically not a happy camper in the first place, that could lead to more unpleasantness. Same sort of question with PayPal and later pledge manager additions; is their transaction fee coming out or will it be fully refunded?

**nkelsch**

Krinsath wrote:
In the scope of a refund, however, they are something you need to account for if you're told you have to eat the fees (which is somewhat fair as Mantic did not actually get that money in the first place). This is context where the comment about being "slapped on" exists; if nkelsch is being told he won't be refunded for fees, then the extra % represented by the Amazon fees does raise a question mark. Certainly something to inquire about if that wasn't clear in the information Mantic sent (which it might have been). Otherwise one could be expecting X and instead get X*97% and, since someone getting a refund is typically not a happy camper in the first place, that could lead to more unpleasantness. Same sort of question with PayPal and later pledge manager additions; is their transaction fee coming out or will it be fully refunded?

Well, it is something to be aware. Retailers and online stores pay a % if I pay by paypal or credit card, but if I get a refund, I get my full money back, but I believe retailers can also get their fee back. Kickstarter simply has no way to recover that as it was taken out before the company ever got it so think of it as a one-time 'fee' for pledging which is gone regardless.

Like I said, I don't have a problem with it, but you are right, other people may be confused by it.

**Azazelx**

Alpharius wrote:
Weird!

I wonder how Duncan screwed that one up so badly!

I'd be curious to see what his source was for that...

**Duncan_Idaho**

Well, officially they might be not, but if you have some business knowledge and a look at how they operate... and how Amazon aquires new parts of its empire it is only a matter of time until they officially take it over. Audible was aquired in a simliar but not identical way. With regard to tax and business stuff it might even be better to keep them half-seperated. Dont forget that Amazon wants to create it´s own closed content-universe and Kickstarter is the ideal way to aquire quite some new content.

You don´t really believe that Amazon invests in something without thinkin about taking it all over in the end? That would be the first time that they did not take over some company the invested in in the long run.

@restic
You need a good file, a clockmakers file is perfect, but not cheap, but will last you a lifetime.

**Zweischneid**

Duncan_Idaho wrote:
Well, officially they might be not, but if you have some business knowledge and a look at how they operate... and how Amazon aquires new parts of its empire it is only a matter of time until they officially take it over. Audible was aquired in a simliar but not identical way. With regard to tax and business stuff it might even be better to keep them half-seperated. Dont forget that Amazon wants to create it´s own closed content-universe and Kickstarter is the ideal way to aquire quite some new content.

You don´t really believe that Amazon invests in something without thinkin about taking it all over in the end? That would be the first time that they did not take over some company the invested in in the long run.

@restic
You need a good file, a clockmakers file is perfect, but not cheap, but will last you a lifetime.

Umm

Still... "Kickstarter is a 100% daughter of Amazon"

...and...

"Based on Amazon's past business practices, I predict they may secretly consider buying Kickstarter.com"

...are two very different statements.

**Duncan_Idaho**

You are not very versed in business takeovers?

Also if I would hand you a list of who belongs to whom in the business world you would be quite surprised. It is not always wise to let anyone know instantly who is owned by whom. Very often this happens for tax reasons (heck, in a former life that was even my job to counsel companies on this), but also to avoid the eyes of monopoly-watch or to point competitors not directly at the coming changes in the market. Already now both companies are that entwined that really only the paper seperates them.

You are right if you claim that on paper they are two seperate entities. But the really interesting things are the yearly business-reports and if you can read them....

**Zweischneid**

Duncan_Idaho wrote:
You are not very versed in business takeovers?

You are right if you claim that on paper they are two seperate entities. But the really interesting things are the yearly business-reports and if you can read them....

I am versed enough to know that if they are "two separate entities" "on paper"; than one is not a 100% daughter of the other. Or am I wrong?

Whatever shadow-conspiracies and tin-foil-hat theories you may have, they'd all amount to something other than business X being a daughter company of business Y even if they were true (for which you've yet to present evidence).

And what tax-reasons could Amazon have for not "officially" buying a company that made less revenue in its four years of existence than Amazon makes in a day?

Duncan_Idaho wrote:

Also if I would hand you a list of who belongs to whom in the business world you would be quite surprised. It is not always wise to let anyone know instantly who is owned by whom.

Please do so. I so love to be surprised

**RiTides**

Duncan, as you admit, they're not connected. The fact that you think they're planning to be in the future, etc, is very different from what you originally posted...

Back to talking about Dreadball

**scarletsquig**

Asterian team:

**Riquende**

Sponsored by Xbox?

Given that one of the fluff entries for a S1 MVP talked aboput how important helmets were, surprised to see a whole humanoid team go without.

Still, I do like them, just want to know now how they play!