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You have permission to cast the power on the unit, with no restriction on the number of times you can do so given in the rules
You have permission to apply a blanket +1S to the unit, with no requirement that this is only applied the once, or can only be applied to unmodified strength
Thus, you have permission to cast it twice (or more) and to apply the effects.
Now, find a restriction. Pagae and paragraph, or concede you have no argument
Easysauce - have you found that restriction then? Because I have shown, repeatedly, the permission. You keep on refusing to engage the fact your argument has been shot full of holes, and are thus simply trolling as you are making assertions with no basis in rules. Desist, please, and follow the actual rules
I'm not saying you aren't allowed to cast it, I'm saying that it would be pointless as only different powers stack. You can cast it but you'd get no positive effects, only negatives (wasting a warp charge, chance to kill yourself for nothing, etc.)
Stat bonuses would normally stack, but as only the effects of different power stack (unless speciafically stated elsewhere) you wouldn't gain +2 strength from 2 seperate HH, only +1
Matt.Kingsley wrote: I'm not saying you aren't allowed to cast it, I'm saying that it would be pointless as only different powers stack. You can cast it but you'd get no positive effects, only negatives (wasting a warp charge, chance to kill yourself for nothing, etc.)
Sigh. Reread my post. Actually use some rules this time.
remember: permission granted for one power does nto mean a similar power has no permission. I have, a few times now, shown permission. You have not engaged with this argument, and just repeat the same, refuted argument over and over like you are actually adding something. Youre not.
I wonder how this actually works,
in RAW I don't see why any psychic powers aren't allowed to stack.
Such as witchfire and beam could stack for sure, since you just need different pskers to cast it.
But since Hammerhead is not a blessing it doesn't really follow under any of them besides the general psychic power.
And in the BRB it states that use the books rules for the psychic power.
According to GK's HH rule, it says:
If psychic test is passed all models in the unit have +1 S until the end of the assault phase.
1. you have to agree that you are allowed to cast this multiple times.
2. The BRB clearly says that psychic powers with no types follow their book's rules.
Combining these 2 you can have the same effect over and over again.
Different powers stacking have nothing to do in this case, since we aren't talking about blessings nor maledictions and GK's HH does not fall under any of the psychic types in the BRB.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/01/25 23:51:54
Makutsu wrote: I wonder how this actually works,
in RAW I don't see why any psychic powers aren't allowed to stack.
Such as witchfire and beam could stack for sure, since you just need different pskers to case it.
But since Hammerhead is not a blessing it doesn't really follow under any of them besides the general psychic power.
And in the BRB it states that use the books rules for the psychic power.
According to GK's HH rule, it says:
If psychic test is passed all models in the unit have +1 S until the end of the assault phase.
1. you have to agree that you are allowed to cast this multiple times.
2. The BRB clearly says that psychic powers with no types follow their book's rules.
Combining these 2 you can have the same effect over and over again.
Different powers stacking have nothing to do in this case, since we aren't talking about blessings nor maledictions and GK's HH does not fall under any of the psychic types in the BRB.
This would be correct, except that the "Resolve Psychic Powers Section" (which is where the "effects of multiple different psychic powers are cumulative" rule located) is for all psychic powers, not just ones with BRB types.
remember: permission granted for one power does nto mean a similar power has no permission. I have, a few times now, shown permission. You have not engaged with this argument, and just repeat the same, refuted argument over and over like you are actually adding something. Youre not.
1. "effects of multiple different psychic powers are cumulative" is a rule.
2. I agree, permission granted for one thing doesn't mean another doesn't have permission. Unfortunately the rule book doesn't clearly say it has permission, nor does it actually say it doesn't, which is where I believe the conflict lies. As it doesn't CLEARLY state it has permission, it doesn't stack.
3. You have shown permission that stat bonuses stack, and that the power itself gives no restrictions, not that it has permission for two of the same power to stack.
4. You have done the same thing. You keep on saying "+1 strength gives permission" and "HH doesn't list restrictions". Everyone is refutuing the same arguement over and over.
"Effects of multiple different powers are cumulative" does not mean "effects of multiples of the same powers are not cumulative". The latter is what you're asserting and have shown no basis for.
My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals.
Matt.Kingsley wrote: I'm not saying you aren't allowed to cast it, I'm saying that it would be pointless as only different powers stack. You can cast it but you'd get no positive effects, only negatives (wasting a warp charge, chance to kill yourself for nothing, etc.)
Stat bonuses would normally stack, but as only the effects of different power stack (unless speciafically stated elsewhere) you wouldn't gain +2 strength from 2 seperate HH, only +1
exactly,
being allowed to CAST something is not being allowed to have that same power stack
again, RAW "different psychic powers are cumulative"
giving you the ability to stack any different power
hypothesis that you can stack any power you want with itself, AND any other power,
this is flawed for several reasons.
A; the word different means nothing
B; the act of casting a power with a different model makes hammer hand/enfeeble somehow not hammer hand/enfeeble, and a different power altogether
C; that every single power is cumulative with itself and every other power
D; casting a power is the same as stacking a power
here is RAW,
68 BRB top right of page under resolve psychic power, this is before the section on blessings and maledictions, although they also specifically stipulate you can stack all different blessings/maledictions as well. "unless otherwise stated, the effects of multiple different psychic powers are cumulative."
so RAW is that every single power is cumulative with every different power.
Stop, do not pass go, here is where you are assuming there is a magical "and itself". it is not there. Do not assume there is an unwritten rule that lets you treat this as C above. that is not RAW,
the idea that a different model casting the same power makes it a different power is ludicrous.
this is why.
model x casts power y on target
model z casts power y on target
so you are contending that power y is not the same power? how can you cast it and have the same effects, and same name on the power, yet it not be itself? every time i hear people justifiing the rules being broken, it always involces
two different models, yes, but does this magically make a power into a different power?,
no,
to deny this is to deny reality, because there is in fact two models casting the same power in this situation.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/01/26 00:33:19
rigeld2 wrote: "Effects of multiple different powers are cumulative" does not mean "effects of multiples of the same powers are not cumulative". The latter is what you're asserting and have shown no basis for.
It also doesn't mean "The effects of all psychic powers are cumulative.
Matt.Kingsley wrote: I'm not saying you aren't allowed to cast it, I'm saying that it would be pointless as only different powers stack. You can cast it but you'd get no positive effects, only negatives (wasting a warp charge, chance to kill yourself for nothing, etc.)
Stat bonuses would normally stack, but as only the effects of different power stack (unless speciafically stated elsewhere) you wouldn't gain +2 strength from 2 seperate HH, only +1
exactly,
being allowed to CAST something is not being allowed to have that same power stack
again, RAW "different psychic powers are cumulative"
giving you the ability to stack any different power
your hypothesis that you can stack any power you want with itself, AND any other power,
this is flawed for several reasons.
A; the word different means nothing
B; the act of casting a power with a different model makes hammer hand/enfeeble somehow not hammer hand/enfeeble, and a different power altogether
C; that every single power is cumulative with itself and every other power
D; casting a power is the same as stacking a power
here is RAW,
68 BRB top right of page under resolve psychic power, this is before the section on blessings and maledictions, although they also specifically stipulate you can stack all different blessings/maledictions as well. "unless otherwise stated, the effects of multiple different psychic powers are cumulative."
so RAW is that every single power is cumulative with every different power.
Stop, do not pass go, here is where you are assuming there is a magical "and itself". it is not there. Do not assume there is an unwritten rule that lets you treat this as C above. that is not RAW,
the idea that a different model casting the same power makes it a different power is ludicrous.
this is why.
model x casts power y on target
model z casts power y on target
so you are contending that power y is not the same power? how can you cast it and have the same effects, and same name on the power, yet it not be itself? every time i hear people justifiing the rules being broken, it always involces
two different models, yes, but does this magically make a power into a different power?,
no,
to deny this is to deny reality, because there is in fact two models casting the same power in this situation.
You still don't understand the FACT that since it never says it is not cumulative, when you cast the same power on the same unit the effects on both psychic powers apply to the unit.
And by doing so they don't contradict anything.
1. BRB, powers with no types use the rules in the corresponding book.
2. Hammerhead: If psychic test is passed +1S until assault phase is over.
3. Allow different powers to be cumulative.
Do you see how 1 & 2 have nothing related to 3 at all?
3 is a case where different powers are casted on a unit.
There is nothing denying you able to cast HH multiple times. <-- Which you have agreed to.
By HH's definition everytime you successfully cast it you get +1S for the unit.
It doesn't contradict anything and by thus it's effect can be applied multiple times.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/01/26 00:25:33
rigeld2 wrote: "Effects of multiple different powers are cumulative" does not mean "effects of multiples of the same powers are not cumulative". The latter is what you're asserting and have shown no basis for.
It also doesn't mean "The effects of all psychic powers are cumulative.
It can go both ways, you know.
It doesn't need to. A second Hammerhand is cast. It's time to resolve it - find something to deny the permission I've been granted.
My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals.
If you want to see rules that give you permission to stack the same power have a look at that psychic powers in the Chaos codex.
eg. Gift of Contagion. - "The effects of multiple Gifts of Contagion are cumulative."
and Symphony of Pain - "Note that the effects of more than one Symphony of Pain are cumulative."
Does Hammer Hand have anything of the same kind of wording saying that it stacks with itself like the ones above?
easysauce wrote: you have not been granted permission to STACK hammer hand, CASTing is not STACKing
so you have no permission to stack, so no fact remains the rules do not state every power can stack with itself and other different powers.
again your theory is that two different words mean the same thing.
you are basing your theory on things NOT said in the rules
to assert otherwise is to assert the rule book says all psychic powers stack with themselves, and all other powers
when it in fact does not.
the rule that exists, does not say you can stack the same power.
that alone means you cannot do it, there does not ALSO need to be a rule expressly forbidding what is already not allowed
you are allowed to stack different powers, that is all.
I don't even know what you are referring to.
Ok, by casting a psychic power you apply its effect to a unit.
Powers such as Prescience will grant you multiple times of the effect of reroll. But obiviously, you can only reroll once hence it would be a waste.
But NOTHING denies that me from doing that.
Ok, so you say I need permission to stack, why is this? I am following rules that are given by permission already.
1. Cast HH.
2. Resolve HH.
3. Cast HH.
4. Resolve HH.
and so on and so forth.
By doing so I have NEVER broken any rules.
When resolving HH, the rules say that you have +1S if psychic test is passed. Simple as that.
NOTHING denies that it doesn't stack, you simply +1S to the unit. That simple.
I didn't break ANY rules, AND I was following the rules of the book.
Spoiler:
quibble wrote: If you want to see rules that give you permission to stack the same power have a look at that psychic powers in the Chaos codex.
eg. Gift of Contagion. - "The effects of multiple Gifts of Contagion are cumulative."
and Symphony of Pain - "Note that the effects of more than one Symphony of Pain are cumulative."
Does Hammer Hand have anything of the same kind of wording saying that it stacks with itself like the ones above?
Since name calling is against the rules of Dakkadakka I'm not gonna say anything.
But do know you are comparing a 2011 codex vs a brand new 2013 codex.
And no it doesn't, but it does say +1S if psychic test is passed.
So since I am allowed to cast it again and again, the +1S can stack as long as I pass the psychic test.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/01/26 01:09:14
easysauce, you do know that your argument is hinged on the notion that "different psychic powers are cumulative." is limited by name; where as the other half is hinged on the fact that they are different powers by model casting them.
Both sides have valid points, a faq is required to specify which 'different' it is that they are using.
Shrouding grants stealth. Stealth awards +1 cover save if you have it, not +1 for each instance of stealth you have.
Hmm, stealth is a special rule. In the rule book it says a model cant benefit from a special rule more then once so how can several stealth +1 covers stack?
Shrouding grants stealth. Stealth awards +1 cover save if you have it, not +1 for each instance of stealth you have.
Hmm, stealth is a special rule. In the rule book it says a model cant benefit from a special rule more then once so how can several stealth +1 covers stack?
+1 Strength isn't a special rule. It is +1 Strength. Pg 32. "However, the effects of multiple different rules are cumulative." OMG we can have multiple USR?! This, like the quote from pg 68. "Unless otherwise stated, the effects of multiple different psychic powers are cumulative", is clearly just put in the BRB to keep people from having to hear "the rule book doesn't say you can have multiple USR or psychic buffs so you have to choose just one even though the unit entry has multiple rules listed. The ambiuous language has clearly caused a bit of a stir, and the only argument is based on the word different being present in the psyker section. This seems a bit silly to me.
Melta also seems to be a special rule. But UH OH it seems you're veteran squad can take them but the special rule isn't listed in their entry so no dice can't use the weapons profile. Sorry! The BRB doesn't seem to clearly point out that a unit carrying a specific weapon gets to use that weapons profile and special rules! Whoopsies! This method of argument is clearly ridiculous. The funny thing is that it is exactly the same argument the nay-sayers seem to be using. If the BRB doesn't clearly and concisely point out exactly what I can do at any given point than it is not allowed by any stretch of the imagination.
easysauce wrote: you have not been granted permission to STACK hammer hand, CASTing is not STACKing
so you have no permission to stack, so no fact remains the rules do not state every power can stack with itself and other different powers.
I have permission to cast the power. I succeed. I now have permission to add 1 to a units STR value.
Find something to deny that permission.
again your theory is that two different words mean the same thing.
Incorrect.
you are basing your theory on things NOT said in the rules
Well - yes. I'm basing it off of the fact that I'm allowed to cast a power and there is nothing in the rules that denies me permission to have the power work.
to assert otherwise is to assert the rule book says all psychic powers stack with themselves, and all other powers
when it in fact does not.
You're right - it doesn't say that.
the rule that exists, does not say you can stack the same power.
I'm curious - are there any rules talking about what happens with "the same power"?
that alone means you cannot do it, there does not ALSO need to be a rule expressly forbidding what is already not allowed
Cite where I am not allowed to stack similar/same powers.
you are allowed to stack different powers, that is all.
There is no rule in any part of the BRB or FAQs that say that. Please cite one if you find it.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
quibble wrote: If you want to see rules that give you permission to stack the same power have a look at that psychic powers in the Chaos codex.
eg. Gift of Contagion. - "The effects of multiple Gifts of Contagion are cumulative."
and Symphony of Pain - "Note that the effects of more than one Symphony of Pain are cumulative."
Does Hammer Hand have anything of the same kind of wording saying that it stacks with itself like the ones above?
That's an argument for intent, not what the rules actually say.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/01/26 04:25:08
My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals.
Shrouding grants stealth. Stealth awards +1 cover save if you have it, not +1 for each instance of stealth you have.
Hmm, stealth is a special rule. In the rule book it says a model cant benefit from a special rule more then once so how can several stealth +1 covers stack?
+1 Strength isn't a special rule. It is +1 Strength. Pg 32. "However, the effects of multiple different rules are cumulative." OMG we can have multiple USR?! This, like the quote from pg 68. "Unless otherwise stated, the effects of multiple different psychic powers are cumulative", is clearly just put in the BRB to keep people from having to hear "the rule book doesn't say you can have multiple USR or psychic buffs so you have to choose just one even though the unit entry has multiple rules listed. The ambiuous language has clearly caused a bit of a stir, and the only argument is based on the word different being present in the psyker section. This seems a bit silly to me.
Melta also seems to be a special rule. But UH OH it seems you're veteran squad can take them but the special rule isn't listed in their entry so no dice can't use the weapons profile. Sorry! The BRB doesn't seem to clearly point out that a unit carrying a specific weapon gets to use that weapons profile and special rules! Whoopsies! This method of argument is clearly ridiculous. The funny thing is that it is exactly the same argument the nay-sayers seem to be using. If the BRB doesn't clearly and concisely point out exactly what I can do at any given point than it is not allowed by any stretch of the imagination.
I didnt talk about granting a +1 strenght.
I said that shrouding gives a unit the stealth USR and the rulebook says a model cannot benefit from a special rule more then once.
Thus my question is:
1: If two GK librarians cast shrouding on the same unit then that unit will get stealth twice. According to the rulebook the unit cannot benefit more then once from stealth and will thus only get a +1 cover save. Yes or no?
Probably the same thing but I´ll write it anyway.
2: A GK librarian cast shrouding on a vindicare assassin. A unit already having stealth giving it the stealth USR on top of the vindicares built-in stealth...will the vindicare now get +2 cover or as per the rulebook only +1 cover since a model cannot benefit more then once from a special rule?
Pyriel- wrote: Thus my question is:
1: If two GK librarians cast shrouding on the same unit then that unit will get stealth twice. According to the rulebook the unit cannot benefit more then once from stealth and will thus only get a +1 cover save. Yes or no?
Yes, that unit will get Stealth twice. Because of two different rules really: Model can benefit from a Special Rule (as defined on pages 32-43) only once. Second reason is that if you had read the actual rules text of Stealth, you would have noticed that it is worded so that it doesn't matter if the unit has 1 source of Stealth or 10 sources of Stealth.
Pyriel- wrote: 2: A GK librarian cast shrouding on a vindicare assassin. A unit already having stealth giving it the stealth USR on top of the vindicares built-in stealth...will the vindicare now get +2 cover or as per the rulebook only +1 cover since a model cannot benefit more then once from a special rule?
+1. For exactly same reasons as above.
But note that +1 to Strength is not a special rule by any definition. There might be special rules that give +1 S (Furious Charge for example), but that is completely different thing. Anyone who argues that HH doesn't stack because of the "No stacking of special rules" is also arguing that having Power Axe and Furious Charge don't stack.
Easysauce - thank you for conceding your point, given you have still not found where permission is denied and I have shown where permission is granted.
Pyriel- wrote: Thus my question is:
1: If two GK librarians cast shrouding on the same unit then that unit will get stealth twice. According to the rulebook the unit cannot benefit more then once from stealth and will thus only get a +1 cover save. Yes or no?
Yes, that unit will get Stealth twice. Because of two different rules really: Model can benefit from a Special Rule (as defined on pages 32-43) only once. Second reason is that if you had read the actual rules text of Stealth, you would have noticed that it is worded so that it doesn't matter if the unit has 1 source of Stealth or 10 sources of Stealth.
Pyriel- wrote: 2: A GK librarian cast shrouding on a vindicare assassin. A unit already having stealth giving it the stealth USR on top of the vindicares built-in stealth...will the vindicare now get +2 cover or as per the rulebook only +1 cover since a model cannot benefit more then once from a special rule?
+1. For exactly same reasons as above.
But note that +1 to Strength is not a special rule by any definition. There might be special rules that give +1 S (Furious Charge for example), but that is completely different thing. Anyone who argues that HH doesn't stack because of the "No stacking of special rules" is also arguing that having Power Axe and Furious Charge don't stack.
Ah ok, thanks
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/01/26 14:07:17
@ pyriel- oh I thought you were using the stealth question as a point to debate from. I didn't know it was an actual question. I'm terribly sorry for my mix up!
No problem korghan. I kinda wondered why you gave me a hard time over the +1strenght
I am merely asking about the stacking of USRs in general such as stealth since some of my friends keep telling me that I can stack multiple stealths and some say I cant and the rulebook says you cannot benefit from a USR more then once thus a double shrouding librarians are pretty useless (Imo).
5000+ points W/D/L: 10/0/6
4000+ points W/D/L: 7/0/4
1500+ points W/D/L: 16/1/4
2500+ points W/D/L: 0/0/3
