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 jegsar wrote:
No it doesn't but since it was ignored as were multiple of my last posts it did get your attention.

But you still haven't proved it.
Without proof, it's opinion not RAW.
A Special Rule grants the benefit of a power.
Why does the benefit of a power count as the benefit of the rule that grants the power?
What's allowing this inheritance?

What isn't allowing the inheritance?
That is the same as you saying that powers stack,
Neither are stated in the BRB but the definition of benefit is stated in the dictionary.





Automatically Appended Next Post:
I was able to bring meaning to the sentence that everyone thought was a reminder, this makes sense, it falls in to place now.

 jegsar wrote:
What isn't allowing the inheritance?
That is the same as you saying that powers stack,
Neither are stated in the BRB but the definition of benefit is stated in the dictionary.

Benefit is mentioned in the BRB, but isn't defined. So yes a dictionary definition is fine.
Inheritance isn't mentioned in the BRB. Why are you applying it?

Psychic powers are not special rules. They are abilities. They are no different from abilities like Anrakyr's Mind in the Machine ability. They just have other restrictions on who can use them and how often/when they can be used.

Being a Psyker does not make a model a special rule. It allows a model to use certain abilities, following the restrictions for using those abilities (Psychic test/warp charges).

It's like saying a weapon having the Blast type (listed under the USR section) makes the weapon a special rule, when it is not and never has been. Unless Games Workshop has been writing codices wrong for years.

 jegsar wrote:
No it doesn't but since it was ignored as were multiple of my last posts it did get your attention.

Maybe, I dunno, give some time before you feel your posts were ignored? My response was quoting the first time you posted that, not the second.

And yes by the definition of benefit, all those statements you said are true. Example, Benefit of an internet connection is keeping in touch with family, though in fact the only direct benifit of the internet is a few extra connections.

And by what rule are you assuming indirect benefits are what that is talking about?

Remember it doesn't actually talk about stacking it actually states

cannot gain the benefit of a special rule more than once.

And? Remember, I never disagreed with that so pointing it out seems... Useless. It's like me reminding you that the word benefit is not in the BRB.

One of the benefits of the psyker special rule is the effects caused by the psychic powers.

As far as iridescence, that has nothing to do with my previous statement but there is Inheritance everywhere in games workshop. Look at the Zealot rule for example, if you want more examples that are even less direct i can find some.

you cannot prove psychic powers, despite having their rules within a special rules section "psyker" are not special rules,



the definition of a special rule,is it bends/breaks the normal rules.


take the divination power where you get to roll normal BS for over watch.

normally you must snap shot, but the benefit from foreboding lets you break that rule.

because it has bent/broken the "normal" rules, that power, or its effect must by definition be a special rule

BRB, Types of psychic powers pg. 68

Powers without a type.
If a psychic power does not have a type, the rules for using it will be clearly expressed within its entry.

Hammerhand clearly does not state that its effects are cumulative

Other psychic powers clearly state that they are.

There is no permission in the rule book that allows it to be cumulative, you can cast whatever you want all day long but it has to specifically state cumulative in order to stack.

All new psychic powers are following this trend of specifying, GK codex is not that old and obviously show signs of the same specification if you look at MotT.


@Nos by vomiting out the same response for every person that puts time and effort into their post giving multiple sources I will take your next copy and pasted response as conceding/playing by house rules.

 Aglobalthreat wrote:
but it has to specifically state cumulative in order to stack.

Citation required.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 jegsar wrote:
One of the benefits of the psyker special rule is the effects caused by the psychic powers.

So being a Psyker means I automatically benefit from my powers?
Wow, that's cool.

Or - wait - perhaps the benefit is the ability to cast powers, and the powers are at best an indirect benefit.

As far as iridescence, that has nothing to do with my previous statement but there is Inheritance everywhere in games workshop. Look at the Zealot rule for example, if you want more examples that are even less direct i can find some.

That inheritance has absolutely nothing to do with the discussion and you know it. Nice try though.

How about an example that is directly relevant to the discussion at hand.

@rigeld2 there is no citation required, the BRB is a set of rules that tells you what is allowed to be done in the game. The only part allowing cumulative falls into the category of different powers.

Everything else says that the psychic power will clearly state how it is to be used.

Hammerhand does not say cumulative like all other powers that are meant to be cumulative in 6th Ed and has not been FAQd to say so.

If you want S6 so bad use MotT and HH you can still get there.

 Aglobalthreat wrote:
@rigeld2 there is no citation required, the BRB is a set of rules that tells you what is allowed to be done in the game. The only part allowing cumulative falls into the category of different powers.

So what is denying permission to resolve the powers?

Actually yes, you benefit from being a psyker for Deny the witch for one. Yout benefit from any powers cast that can you cast because you are a psyker.

Indirect benefit at least, and that sill is a benefit.

Just like you said, where is inheritances? Where does it clearly state that HH can stack, note that other psychic powers that can stack clearly state they can stack.

 jegsar wrote:
Where does it clearly state that HH can stack, note that other psychic powers that can stack clearly state they can stack.

In the absence of something saying they cannot stack, the bolded is irrelevant.
HH stacks because, like other psychic powers, there is permission to resolve the power.

rigeld2 wrote:

 jegsar wrote:
Where does it clearly state that HH can stack, note that other psychic powers that can stack clearly state they can stack.

HH stacks because, like other psychic powers, there is permission to resolve the power.

What are you talking about? Where is that permission to stack (other then the non existent FAQ.)

 jegsar wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 jegsar wrote:
Where does it clearly state that HH can stack, note that other psychic powers that can stack clearly state they can stack.

HH stacks because, like other psychic powers, there is permission to resolve the power.

What are you talking about? Where is that permission to stack (other then the non existent FAQ.)

BRB Page 69 wrote:Assuming that the Psychic test was passed and the enemy did not nullify it through a successful Deny the Witch roll, you can now resolve the psychic power according to instructions in its entry.

What are the instructions in HH's entry?

Ok... what does that have to do with benefiting multiple times from the same psychic power? never said it couldn't resolve.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Aglobalthreat wrote:
@rigeld2 there is no citation required, the BRB is a set of rules that tells you what is allowed to be done in the game. The only part allowing cumulative falls into the category of different powers.

So what is denying permission to resolve the powers?

That's an absurd way to look at it, the rule book tells what is specifically allowed. By your logic I could place my vehicles however I want on the table (upside down on their side), it doesn't say I can't

And I'm sure there are plenty other things I could possible do since the rulebook doesn't say I can't

 Aglobalthreat wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Aglobalthreat wrote:
@rigeld2 there is no citation required, the BRB is a set of rules that tells you what is allowed to be done in the game. The only part allowing cumulative falls into the category of different powers.

So what is denying permission to resolve the powers?

That's an absurd way to look at it, the rule book tells what is specifically allowed. By your logic I could place my vehicles however I want on the table (upside down on their side), it doesn't say I can't

And I'm sure there are plenty other things I could possible do since the rulebook doesn't say I can't

That's not even close to what I'm saying.

I have permission to manifest a power. Agreed?
I have permission to expend a warp charge. Agreed?
I have permission to declare a target. Agreed?
I have permission to roll for my Psychic Test. Agreed?
Assuming I pass that, and am not targeting an enemy unit, I have permission to resolve the power. Agreed?

That's not even close to what I'm saying.

I have permission to manifest a power. Agreed?
I have permission to expend a warp charge. Agreed?
I have permission to declare a target. Agreed?
I have permission to roll for my Psychic Test. Agreed?
Assuming I pass that, and am not targeting an enemy unit, I have permission to resolve the power. Agreed?

Where is the permission to accumulate the benefit of Hammerhand? Not clearly defined in the rules for the power.

Rulebook doesn't specifically give permission to same powers being cumulative.

Sure you can cast it as many times as allowed but no where does it say it accumulates.

I will give into the fact that it also does not say it doesn't accumulate. But looking at how powers are being clearly defined as to how they are to be used in 6th edition until it is FAQd I would say it does not stack.


And on a side note it was exactly what you are saying,

So what is denying permission to resolve the powers?

What is denying me the permission to place my vehicle however I want? There I worded it more like what you were saying.

Sure, You can also give invisibility to SS termies but that isn't gonna help them.

Same way you can shoot a landraider with a bolter but it's not gonna do anything.

There is nothing saying that you need to benefit to resolve a power.

 Aglobalthreat wrote:

That's not even close to what I'm saying.

I have permission to manifest a power. Agreed?
I have permission to expend a warp charge. Agreed?
I have permission to declare a target. Agreed?
I have permission to roll for my Psychic Test. Agreed?
Assuming I pass that, and am not targeting an enemy unit, I have permission to resolve the power. Agreed?

Where is the permission to accumulate the benefit of Hammerhand? Not clearly defined in the rules for the power.

Funny, when I read the power it says to add +1Str to the unit. That's pretty clearly defined.

Rulebook doesn't specifically give permission to same powers being cumulative.

Irrelevant.

Sure you can cast it as many times as allowed but no where does it say it accumulates.

Sure it does. The Hammerhand power says to add +1 STR. There's no rule saying not to add that STR.

I will give into the fact that it also does not say it doesn't accumulate. But looking at how powers are being clearly defined as to how they are to be used in 6th edition until it is FAQd I would say it does not stack.

That's a RAI or HYWPI argument - I don't care one way or the other as far as that goes.

And on a side note it was exactly what you are saying,

So what is denying permission to resolve the powers?

What is denying me the permission to place my vehicle however I want? There I worded it more like what you were saying.

It depends on what you mean in that question. During deployment? The fact that the rules specify you can only deploy in your deployment zone.

In other words, it is not exactly what I'm saying. I have permission to resolve the power. You're saying that the power cannot resolve. What is denying permission to resolve the power? In a permissive rule set once you are granted permission you must have something deny permission to remove the ability to do it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 jegsar wrote:
There is nothing saying that you need to benefit to resolve a power.

Actually there is - the power says to add 1 STR. If I have not added 1 STR I have not resolved the power.
Cite the rule that denies the resolution of the power.

Unless specifically stated, a model cannot gain the benefit of a special rule more than once. However, the effects of multiple different special rules are cumulative.

+1 strength is a benefit, regardless if it's direct or indirect. Therefore it cannot benefit more then once.

Also you may have missed or at least not responded to the part about "the models in the unit have +1 strength" cast this 50 times they still only have +1 strength. That is RAW at least. Yes that logic is as stupid as the doom not causing wounds but it's still RAW.

Now if you want to go back even further, Show me where it says this sentence is only a reminder and not giving permission for different powers to stack.

Unless otherwise stated, the effects of multiple different psychic powers are cumulative.

If you follow RAW then sentence has a purpose and it is to ALLOW DIFFERENT psychic powers to stack. Note some psychic powers check the CSM dex specfically state that they can stack while others in the dex don't include that. All this means when playing a game HH or enfeeble do not stack.

 jegsar wrote:

Unless specifically stated, a model cannot gain the benefit of a special rule more than once. However, the effects of multiple different special rules are cumulative.

+1 strength is a benefit, regardless if it's direct or indirect. Therefore it cannot benefit more then once.

That only applies to special rules (PP. 32-43) Notice how hammerhand is not listed...

Notice how HH is a benefit from psyker, so it can only benefit once, Also that is only part of what i said.
Oh and the rules for the special rule psyker starts on page 66, (which covers blessings and psychic powers)

 jegsar wrote:
Notice how HH is a benefit from psyker, so it can only benefit once, Also that is only part of what i said.

Psyker is a special rule and "a model cannot gain the benefit of a special rule more than once." So it can not benefit from Psyker more than once.

Hammerhand is a Psychic power, it is not the Psyker Special rule.

the effect of hammerhand is a benefit of the special rule psyker, wouldn't have it without it.

Still not everything i said.

 jegsar wrote:
the effect of hammerhand is a benefit of the special rule psyker, wouldn't have it without it.

Still not everything i said.

Incorrect, The effect of hammerhand is a benefit of the Hammerhand Psychic power.

merriam-webster: useful aid

You could call it an indirect benefit but it is without a doubt some kinda of benefit.

Now I realize no one likes answering this question but, what is the purpose of

Unless otherwise stated, the effects of multiple different psychic powers are cumulative.

That combined with how the CSM dex is written and only a few of the modifier spells have a rule that states that they do stack, is enough for me to read that the same psychic cannot stack without permission.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 jegsar wrote:

Unless specifically stated, a model cannot gain the benefit of a special rule more than once. However, the effects of multiple different special rules are cumulative.

+1 strength is a benefit, regardless if it's direct or indirect. Therefore it cannot benefit more then once.

That only applies to special rules (PP. 32-43) Notice how hammerhand is not listed...

the list says on pg 32 it is not all encompassing, and that there are plenty of other abilities that fall under special rules, if its all those entries beside wargear, powers, abilities, those are called special rules. they are listed on the model as options, and have an appropriate entry containing the special rules and their benifits.

it also says psychic powers are a source of special rules, amongst other things like terrain, ect

there are plenty more special rules in each codex. hammer hand is one of many special rules not found in the BRB

what is a "special rule"?

GW says on pg 32 that it is any "weapon or ability used to bend or break the rules" includes a lot of stuff, likely most things have at least one special rule.

psychic powers are a subtext of a special rule, psyker, as stated on pg 41 in the USR section (which 100% do not stack),

your permission to resolve that psychic power is in a special rules description, that makes it part of that special rule. Everything to do with psychic powers takes place in the special rule chapter devoted to "psykers" from pg 66-69


every weapon, or ability, with a special rule, is just that, a special rule. there is a chapter on special rules for weapons, but do you argue they are not special rules, and now stack?
the +1str benefit from furious charge is a benefit from a ability special rule. (cannot stack with itself, even though in the rule FC it doesnt say you cant stack it, because its a special rule)
the +1str benefit from a power axe is a weapon special rule benefit (also doesnt stack with itself, because its a special rule)
the + 1str benefit from hammer hand, is also a benefit from a ability special rule (hammer hand), (like all other special rules does not stack)

 jegsar wrote:

merriam-webster: useful aid

You could call it an indirect benefit but it is without a doubt some kinda of benefit.

Now I realize no one likes answering this question but, what is the purpose of

Unless otherwise stated, the effects of multiple different psychic powers are cumulative.

That combined with how the CSM dex is written and only a few of the modifier spells have a rule that states that they do stack, is enough for me to read that the same psychic cannot stack without permission.

This was asked a few times but never answered.

The benefits of a Special Rule don't stack.
Why are you saying the benefit of the benefit of a Special Rule don't Stack. What rule is allowing you to apply this inheritance. Page number please.

It can be demonstrated that Psychic Powers are not Special Rules. They can grant them, but are not themselves Special Rules.

easysauce wrote:
the +1str benefit from a power axe is a weapon special rule benefit (also doesnt stack with itself, because its a special rule)

It doesn't stack because you can only attack with one weapon.
+1 Str is not a Special Rule.