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Samurai_Eduh wrote:
I can't believe that people have been arguing for 13 pages about this. You can't stack identical powers, its written right there in the rulebook in black and white!

See that's a blatant lie.

What it actually says is "different powers are cumulative" which is NOT the same as "same powers are not cumulative. Logically unequal statements.

If you are allowed to eat different fruit for lunch, nothing explicitly forbids you from eating two of the same fruit.

The brb statement is a permissive statement only. There are no statements restricting same powers. The process of expending warp charge and resolving powers inherently allows same powers to stack. Nothing in writing prohibits this.

jeffersonian000 wrote:
My entire argument might be based on a flaw, however, pg. 32 of the BRB, under "What Special Rules do I Have?", 2nd and 3rd paragraphs, suggests otherwise.

"Similarly a model might get special rules as a result of psychic powers ..."

Are you aware of the difference between "might", which is the word used here, and "will always", which is required for your argument to not be flawed?

jeffersonian000 wrote:"When this is the case, the rule that governs the psychic powers ..."

Note that it is not a special rule here; just a rule.

jeffersonian000 wrote:The BRB treats the effects of psychic powers as special rules if the effects bend or change the general rules of the game.

Please define where "+1S" is defined as a special rule. It neither bends nor breaks the rules of the game, so I would avoid using that

jeffersonian000 wrote:I would say that at this time, this argument is finished.

SJ

Again, despite you repeating it I'm not sure you understand what you are saying

 jegsar wrote:
Armor saves do not stack in the game, i asked for something that does. No need to dodge as it doesn't answer my question.

So you didn't even bother to read my post? That's not how you argue a point.

using your stat line is a standard rule

you argue that modiying that stat line is also a standard rule?

again, your ONLY defense for stacking the same power is

"but I can cast the power twice"

and again you equate cast with stack, when there is 0 basis for equating those terms

I can cast shrouding twice, that does NOT mean its benifit stacks with itself. I can put two models in a unit with FC, still wont stack with itself, same with 2 power axes on a model, so why is this one special ability (psychic powers) that bends rules (stat modifying IS bending the normal rule of following stat lines) suddenly not special?

if GW didnt specifically say you could stack fifferent psychic powers, you could not do it, because all powers are an extention of the special rule "psykers" so without permission to stack different powers, you cannot do it because you are using the same special rule benifit. (and again, denying what chapter power resolution rules are in is just silly, it is a special rule chapter)


as has been shown with powers like the shrouding, you cannot cast them over and over and stack the effects.

not to mention all powers that do stack with themselves say in their rule that they can.

again, the side for stacking lacks actual rules to back them up, simply repeating, "I can cast this" does not change the rules to say that stacks.

plenty of rules have been quoted that talk about special rules and pyschic powers, the rules for psychic powers are in a USR chapter, and there is no rule saying you can stack the same power

keep repeating over and over that 1+1=2 and that permission for casting = permission for stacking, it doesnt prove anything

special rules come from all over the game, codex's do not have core rules in them by definition, they have army lists, wargear, and special rules for that army in them.

the onus is on the stacking side to prove:
you are allowed to stack (not cast, stack) the same rule
that powers are NOT special rules

You keep using shrouding as an example when stealth (a special rule granted by shrouding) explicitly doesn't benefit a model more than once.

+1 str is not a special rule. Casting the power is not stacking it. Resolving the psychic power's effect is. You have not resolved the power until the models receive +1 str. You may use the power again and resolve it again. That's +2 str. The process of expending warp charge, rolling leadership, and resolving the power permits this. Over and over again. Nothing prevents this. Permission is granted to any psyker who has warp charge and meets the timing and targeting requirements.

+1STR Is a modifier to a normal rule, it is the benifit of a special rule

you seem to be under the impression that all special rules are in the BRB

or do you contend the +1str from FC/power axe is not a benifit from a special rule?

how can casting powers and resolving them be special rules, yet the benifits of casting/resolving not be benifits of special rules?

you are calling something a special rule when it suits you, and not a special rule when it doesnt.

easysauce wrote:
+1STR Is a modifier to a normal rule, it is the benifit of a special rule

you seem to be under the impression that all special rules are in the BRB

or do you contend the +1str from FC/power axe is not a benifit from a special rule?

how can casting powers and resolving them be special rules, yet the benifits of casting/resolving not be benifits of special rules?

you are calling something a special rule when it suits you, and not a special rule when it doesnt.

The +1 strength from a power axe is a stat modifier, not a special rule, so there is a possibility you don't understand special rules. Many stat modifiers in the game have nothing to do with special rules, and although a special rule may confer them, stat modifiers are not a special rule.

i am not saying +1 str is a special rule, re read what i said

it is the benifit of a special rule


just like you can have preferred enemy (orks)

you have psyker(hammerhand)

easysauce wrote:

or do you contend the +1str from FC/power axe is not a benifit from a special rule?

This was your example. It has nothing to do with a special rule. It is a stat modifier granted by a piece of wargear. A model striking with a power axe also has AP2 attacks, which ignore all armour saves, but that is not a special rule either. Power axes striking at initiative 1, however, IS an example of a special rule because the reason that you strike at initiative 1 is the "unwieldy" special rule.

my example had the benifit of a special rule and wargear on it yes

again, where does it say core rules are in any codex,

codex's have army lists, wargear lists and special rules

where do you think powers fit into that trio?

why is psyker a special rule, but not psyker(hammerhand)?

preferred enemy does not magically stop being a special rule when it is preferred enemy(orks)

easysauce wrote:
why is psyker a special rule, but not psyker(hammerhand)?

Because psyker is listed in the special rules section, and Hammerhand is not, as it is listed as a psychic power and psychic powers are listed in the psychic powers section, not the special rules section.

Psyker is in the special rules section of the book, as Death Reaper pointed out. You could allow a grot to take every psychic power in the book, but grot are not PSYKERS, which is a rule allowing you to use psychic powers. Hammerhand is a power which models are allowed to take a test to use, provided they have the "Psyker" special rule.

Psychic powers are most definitely not special rules, tho some can grant them such as iron arm, endurance, and shrouding.

+1 str is a characteristic modifier not a special rule.

Having a psyker special rule does not make all powers special rules.

If my justicar can use hammerhand and resolve it, and my grand master can do the same if they are in separate units, what rules stops one from being resolved if they are both in the same unit?

the list of USR in the BRB, as stated in the BRB is not an all encompassing list, it specifically states there are more special rules then this in codexes ect

the rules for resolving powers are indeed part of a special rule,


the rules for powers fit the definition of special rule as well since they are 100% abilities that bend/break the rules

Wrong. Just because you must be a psyker does not make everything he does a special rule.

Nothing about hammerhand is labelled as a special rule. Adding +1 str does not bend or break any game rules. The effects of some powers may break or bend the rules (see GoI) this is not one of them.

not everything he does is a special rule,

but everything related to psychic powers is within the special rule psykers, so casting, and resolving are 100% part of a special rule.

resolving powers via the special rule psykers confers benifits,

and adding +anything to a stat line is in fact modifying the rules,

the normal rule is you have the str listed on your profile


a rule found in the codex, is not going to be a core rule, quote where it says basic game rules are listed in the codexes?

easysauce wrote:
the list of USR in the BRB, as stated in the BRB is not an all encompassing list, it specifically states there are more special rules then this in codexes ect

the rules for resolving powers are indeed part of a special rule,


the rules for powers fit the definition of special rule as well since they are 100% abilities that bend/break the rules

Then why aren't Psychic powers in the special rules section?

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 jegsar wrote:
Armor saves do not stack in the game, i asked for something that does. No need to dodge as it doesn't answer my question.

So you didn't even bother to read my post? That's not how you argue a point.

You said IF it did not, i understand your point, my point is that everything that does stack is stated. Also it doesn't "Armor saves do not stack" it says you use the best save available to you when you take a wound. there is a difference. In addition this isn't stacking this is cumulative combination of effects.
Back to my point,
1 it's a combination of rules that create multiple modifiers, this is a single rule.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
How does "+!S" BREAK or BEND a game rule? Show the rule it breaks.

As has been repeatedly shown to you your premise is faulty; it asks for a combination of rules. 2 of the same rule IS a combination of rules

{A,A} is a valid combination, no matter how many times you pretend otherwise

2 of the same rule, it's the same rule. it's two instances of 1 rule. 1 rule. As i demonstrated on page 12 of this thread, 2 of the same rule applied is still 1 rule. (otherwise you would be able to stack special rules)
Also adding +1 strength doesn't change the normal rules of page 2, however HH changes the timing of when you apply the +1 strength bonus therefore bending/breaking the main rules as stated on page 2 and that makes it a special rule based on the following quote.

Whenever a creature or weapon has an ability that breaks or bends one of the main game rules, it is represented by special rule.

Two castings of HH are two of the same rules, but applied twice as they have both been cast upon the same unit, thus meeting the criteria for a combination of rules.

two of the same rule is two rules, not one, not sure where you made that up from.

You can not stack thinks like stealth because Stealth says "A unit that contains at least one model with this special rule..." P. 42 Therefore if you have 7 models with the Stealth rule you have a unit that "contains at least one model with this special rule"

No, it is 2 rules. The clue is the fact there is more than 1. More than 1 is a plural. The plural of rule..is "rules"

As you made up and asserted on page 12, and were refuted over and over and over and over.....

How is +1S a special rule? Hammerhand is a psychic power, not a special rule.

Again, you have made an assertion with no actual rules. Provide some, for a change, as per the tenets of the forum.

nosferatu1001 wrote:No, it is 2 rules. The clue is the fact there is more than 1. More than 1 is a plural. The plural of rule..is "rules"

As you made up and asserted on page 12, and were refuted over and over and over and over.....

How is +1S a special rule? Hammerhand is a psychic power, not a special rule.

Again, you have made an assertion with no actual rules. Provide some, for a change, as per the tenets of the forum.

Nos, try reading next time. I said by changing the timing of the addition of the strength, it breaks/bends the main rules as stated on page 2 under multiple modifiers.

DeathReaper wrote:Two castings of HH are two of the same rules, but applied twice as they have both been cast upon the same unit, thus meeting the criteria for a combination of rules.

two of the same rule is two rules, not one, not sure where you made that up from.

You can not stack thinks like stealth because Stealth says "A unit that contains at least one model with this special rule..." P. 42 Therefore if you have 7 models with the Stealth rule you have a unit that "contains at least one model with this special rule"

If it's 2 rules, then it's not A rule.
I will re ask the question again.
If i give a model Furious Charge twice, is that a rule it benefits from twice or is that 2 rules?
It's a single rule, applied 2 times. Just because you put it on there twice doesn't split it into 2 rules.

 hyv3mynd wrote:
Wrong. Just because you must be a psyker does not make everything he does a special rule.

Nothing about hammerhand is labelled as a special rule. Adding +1 str does not bend or break any game rules. The effects of some powers may break or bend the rules (see GoI) this is not one of them.

Actually, it does. Per pg. 32 of the BRB, any effect that changes or bends the general rules in the BRB are considered special rules. What makes Hammerhand a special rule is that:

A) it is a rule in a codex, not the BRB, as stated on pg. 32
B) provides a modifier to a standard stat line, which is a change (modifier) to an existing rule (stat line)
C) the BRB tells us that effects from psychic powers are SPECIAL RULES on pg. 32.

In addition, pg. 68 of the BRB gives us specific permission to stack benefits from "different" powers. This permission is required because all psychic powers are SPECIAL RULES as stated on pg. 32, where it specifically states that benefits from the same special rule do not stack. Every single psychic powered entry contains the special rules relating to that specific power including when the power may be used (bending), what effects are generated upon a successful activation (changing), and if possible whether or not the power stacks with another power and/or itself (bending). Might of Titan on pg. 25 of the GK codex informs us that it stacks with Hammerhand. Hammerhand on the same page makes no mention of being cumulative with multiple castings.

The burden of proof is on the "Stackers", not the "Non-Stackers", because the BRB specifically tells us that same benefits do not stack unless otherwise noted. Multiple castings of Hammerhand on the same unit is "same benefits" and therefore do not stack because the BRB tells us so while the rules for Hammerhand do not state otherwise. However, Might of Titan and Hammer do stack because the GK codex gives specific permission for those to powers to stack despite both providing identical benefits (a +1 bonus to Strength)

SJ

Jegsar - "rules" is plural. Does 2 of something make it a plural?

Answer yes or no.

Yes, if you have 2 rules. HH is A rule.
now answer me this, does changing the timing of then you apply +1 strength bend or break the normal game rules?

Oh where to start.....

jeffersonian000 wrote:
A) it is a rule in a codex, not the BRB, as stated on pg. 32

Not all rules in codexes are special rules. Prove otherwise

jeffersonian000 wrote:B) provides a modifier to a standard stat line, which is a change (modifier) to an existing rule (stat line)

A stat line is not a rule. Prove otherwise

jeffersonian000 wrote:C) the BRB tells us that effects from psychic powers are SPECIAL RULES on pg. 32.

And here is the major issue you have. You have been shown repeatedly that that is a lie. As in, you cannot keep on repeating it without knowingly committing a falsehood, because you have been shown the proof of this.

Psychic powers MAY give special rules. MAY. Not "Always". "MIGHT". You cannot cite a rule you have changed.

Perhaps acknowledge your error, or will this be another "vehicles are a member of the unit embarked on them" fallacy again?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 jegsar wrote:
Yes, if you have 2 rules. HH is A rule.
now answer me this, does changing the timing of then you apply +1 strength bend or break the normal game rules?

No, it is 2 rules. the same rule, twice. That would be rules

Try again.

I'll rephrase, does changing the timing of then you apply +1 strength bend or break the normal game rules?
Yes or no?

I'll repeat: when is something a plural?

When there are multiple, now answer yes or no to my question.

 jegsar wrote:
In addition this isn't stacking this is cumulative combination of effects.

Stacking=cumulative combination of effects. That's the very definition of stacking.

 jegsar wrote:
When there are multiple, now answer yes or no to my question.

And 2 of the same rule is a multiple, meaning you have RuleS in play

The whole of Hammerhand is not a special rule. The second part of hammerhand, whcih alters the rules on page 2, is. +1S isnt.

So, you have now confirmed you can stack the +1S, but only get the "before multipliers" rule once - which is all you need

Thanks for proving our argument, you can stop now!