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you do? I thought it was only four...

Welp, that changes things!


Some people just want unit B to do something different and fluffy. I found them pretty darn tough when I played with them. I like them, and I know they wont be uber, but still, it's fun for me to use them.

I did a playtest of a unit of 5, then 10 knights vs TH/SS terminators of 5 and 10. It involved them charging and being charged and both with and without smite. Of the 8 rounds the knights won out 7 times losing only when charged by the 10 TH/SS. This is by no means a deffinative scientific test but was enough to convince me of there benefits. They are cheaper than TH/SS, gain higher WS and T and with the Knight master getting an extra attack I feel they will fulfil a roll.

 Tiger9gamer wrote:
Some people just want unit B to do something different and fluffy.

That's fine, but the question was whether they're overrated or not, not whether you enjoy playing with them/like painting the models/have them in your army's fluff/etc. A model can be both fluffy and overrated.

I'm not convinced. I played against them a couple of times now and meh.

 tyr4nt99 wrote:
I did a playtest of a unit of 5, then 10 knights vs TH/SS terminators of 5 and 10. It involved them charging and being charged and both with and without smite. Of the 8 rounds the knights won out 7 times losing only when charged by the 10 TH/SS. This is by no means a deffinative scientific test but was enough to convince me of there benefits. They are cheaper than TH/SS, gain higher WS and T and with the Knight master getting an extra attack I feel they will fulfil a roll.

Obviously they smash TH/SS, but that's not the point. They aren't overrated because they're secretly bad at killing TH/SS (and similar death stars), they're excellent at doing that. They're overrated because they're only relevant against that single unit type, and in any game where your opponent doesn't bring that single unit type (or refuses to set up a head-to-head fight between them) they're much worse than standard deathwing. Their amazing performance in the single situation where they're worth it is blinding people to the fact that most of the time they're a bad unit.

How are they a bad unit? Would you like to see the mathhammer for a unit of Knights vs a Tac/Dev/Assault Marine squad?

How about an Ork Boy unit?

If mathhammer is not leet enough for you, did you not see the batreps where that poster said he took out a Terminator Squad in one game, a Dreadknight in another game, and several Leman Russ BTs?

This is the first thing you're missing, if you're admitting that they can wipe out an equal costed TH/SS unit, then they've made up their points, end of story. Anything they do after that is gravy, and they are a POWERFUL unit after Smite. I've run the math and they do just fine. They hit on 3's, wound on 2's, they have T5, a Stormshield, and a 2+ armor save. Their ONLY limitation is AP4, and that's not even on every model (their Knight Champion is AP3 w/ 3 attacks). Not to mention they get AP3/2 against Chaos, so there's only 6 Codexes against which a squad of DWK without Smite would struggle: C:SM, C:BA, C: DA, C:BT C:GK, and Sisters. Against anything else they would be absolutely violently brutal.

 TedNugent wrote:
How are they a bad unit? Would you like to see the mathhammer for a unit of Knights vs a Tac/Dev/Assault Marine squad?

How about an Ork Boy unit?

If mathhammer is not leet enough for you, did you not see the batreps where that poster said he took out a Terminator Squad in one game, a Dreadknight in another game, and several Leman Russ BTs?

This is the first thing you're missing, if you're admitting that they can wipe out an equal costed TH/SS unit, then they've made up their points, end of story. Anything they do after that is gravy, and they are a POWERFUL unit after Smite. I've run the math and they do just fine. They hit on 3's, wound on 2's, they have T5, a Stormshield, and a 2+ armor save. Their ONLY limitation is AP4, and that's not even on every model (their Knight Champion is AP3 w/ 3 attacks). Not to mention they get AP3/2 against Chaos, so there's only 6 Codexes against which a squad of DWK without Smite would struggle: C:SM, C:BA, C: DA, C:BT C:GK, and Sisters. Against anything else they would be absolutely violently brutal.

Nobody is saying they are a bad unit, all that is being said is that compared to combat deathwing squads they are better at killing deathstars and get T:5 but it is not a great tradeoff for being a scoring unit because it relies on your opponents, well, taking deathstars and well, who does that anymore?

 TedNugent wrote:
. Not to mention they get AP3/2 against Chaos, so there's only 6 Codexes against which a squad of DWK without Smite would struggle: C:SM, C:BA, C: DA, C:BT C:GK, and Sisters. Against anything else they would be absolutely violently brutal.

Please stop saying this, most armies played are loyalist marines. They are W's top seller, stop using codex count like it translates to an equal distribution among people playing them.

They seem OK but in every situation suggested by people on here, they are assuming many things. This unit is not guaranteed to assault what ever it wants and has no ranged attack. Meaning if you teleport in, you need Belial to assure you can corner a target without misshaping which inflates their cost and you still get to sit there and allow them to react. This is why it is ridiculous to even suggest they will counter an enemy death star. The opponent can play the same trick on you. You DS in, their turn they feed you a unit you will be stuck with for at least two assaults. Heres the big question, do you sit there ovr you next turn freeing them up thus letting your opponent react again on his turn or do you smite right then and there to escape so you can assault in your own turn. If you do then you've wasted your one smite and now my death star can hunt you. The whole timing of when they use thewir smite can easily be used against you.

 TedNugent wrote:
How are they a bad unit? Would you like to see the mathhammer for a unit of Knights vs a Tac/Dev/Assault Marine squad?

How about an Ork Boy unit?

The point is that regular deathwing beat those units too, and are scoring. Bringing knights against those units trades scoring for overkill, and that's a terrible trade.

This is the first thing you're missing, if you're admitting that they can wipe out an equal costed TH/SS unit, then they've made up their points, end of story.

That depends on your opponent bringing TH/SS (or equivalent) at all. If, instead, they bring a MSU mech list without any good smite targets your knights will never out-perform the scoring deathwing you could have taken instead.

They are not over rated at all. They have a great role to play, are they tournement worthy, probably not, and neither are deathwing terminators really. Are they competitive fun play? You bet.

 Red Corsair wrote:

Please stop saying this, most armies played are loyalist marines. They are W's top seller, stop using codex count like it translates to an equal distribution among people playing them.

Great, show me the distribution. Show me the sales charts and the market share. Even if they are top seller and even if they are the majority, by what margin? If we're talking about 60% versus 40, that makes the numbers as far as opportunity cost way different than if we're talking about 70-30.

 TedNugent wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

Please stop saying this, most armies played are loyalist marines. They are W's top seller, stop using codex count like it translates to an equal distribution among people playing them.

Great, show me the distribution. Show me the sales charts and the market share. Even if they are top seller and even if they are the majority, by what margin? If we're talking about 60% versus 40, that makes the numbers as far as opportunity cost way different than if we're talking about 70-30.

Well he is right from a tourney PoV, and those are knowable numbers. I really don't care, so I'm not looking, but there are sites and blogs out there that keep track of how many of each dex are at tourneys each year. If youre talking club play, it's all conjecture.

The main purpose of Deathwing Knights is to ruin a CSM player's day and become super killy for one turn.
So unless you know you're going against a CSM army with a lot of power armor models, Knights are not going to be the best option.

Once per game you get an I WIN button.

The rest of the game you can smash parking lots or light troops to smithereens, and are one of the most resilient troops in the game against enemy shooting (T5 / 2+ / 3++, plus can be locked in combat a lot of the time so can't even be shot at...).

Yes, they're not as strong against loyalist power armour codices as TH/SS termies are. But if you're using them to fight a tactical squad, dev squad, or even a tooled-up assault squad -- who do you think will win? Hint -- the winner is not wearing power armour.

They are pretty worthless in a 5th ed meta, but it's a new meta. Eldar, Tau, Nids, Necrons, orks, and chaos deamons are all variable in 6th ed and vulnerable to s6 ap4. The days where 1/3 of a gt is gk, another 1/3 is the other meq armies, and half of the remaining 1/3 is IG are over.

 Ian Sturrock wrote:
Once per game you get an I WIN button.

The rest of the game you can smash parking lots or light troops to smithereens, and are one of the most resilient troops in the game against enemy shooting (T5 / 2+ / 3++, plus can be locked in combat a lot of the time so can't even be shot at...).

Yes, they're not as strong against loyalist power armour codices as TH/SS termies are. But if you're using them to fight a tactical squad, dev squad, or even a tooled-up assault squad -- who do you think will win? Hint -- the winner is not wearing power armour.

Its amazing how many people are just bad at math or to lazy to run the numbers. TH/SS termies are not the clearly better choice against MEQ armies, they are usually the worse choice even if you ignore the value of a 1 turn god mode, fearless, and called shots ability. Math counts .5 or greater as a death for time sequencing, we are also ignoring challenges to give all the poopooers a situational out to justify their inaccurate claims of THSS domination. The math below clearly shows that there is at best a marginal difference between the squads performance on offense and defense. The THSS have a very slight edge in the worst defensive scenario of .5 kills and the DWK have a very slight edge of .2 kills in the offensive scenarios. IMO the math says take the DWK for all the perks, the THSS terminators have only a situational advantage, and DWK will out perform them in most endeavors without using smite mode.

MEQ 10 man charges DWK T5
Pistol shots pre-charge 10 shots, 2/3 hit, 1/3 wound, 1/6 DWK deaths 0.4
Step I4
MEQ 22 Attacks 1/2 hit, 1/3 wound, 1/6 DWK deaths - 0.6
DWK 3 AP3 Attacks 2/3 hit, 5/6 wound no saves MEQ deaths - 1.7
DWK 8 Attacks 2/3 hit, 5/6 wound, 1/3 MEQ deaths - 1.5

Score MEQ 3.2, DWK 1

MEQ 10 man charges DWK T4
Pistol shots pre-charge 10 shots, 2/3 hit, 1/2 wound, 1/6 DWK deaths 0.6
Step I4
MEQ 22 Attacks 1/2 hit, 1/2 wound, 1/6 DWK deaths - 0.9
DWK 3 AP3 Attacks 2/3 hit, 5/6 wound no saves MEQ deaths - 1.7
DWK 6 Attacks 2/3 hit, 5/6 wound, 1/3 MEQ deaths - 1.1

Score MEQ 2.8 DWK 1.5

MEQ 10 man charges THSS
Pistol shots pre-charge 10 shots, 2/3 hit, 1/2 wound, 1/6 THSS deaths 0.6
Step I4
MEQ 22 Attacks 1/2 hit, 1/2 wound, 1/6 THSS deaths - 0.9
Step I1
THSS 8 AP2 Attacks 1/2 hit, 5/6 wound no saves MEQ deaths - 3.3

Score MEQ 3.3 THSS 1.5

==========================================================================

DWK T5 charges 10 man MEQ
Overwatch 20 shots (everyone has a bolter in this squad) 1/6 hit, 1/3 wound, 1/6 DWK deaths 0.2
Step I10
DWK 5 hit, 1/2 wound, 1/3 MEQ deaths 0.8
Step I4
DWK 4 AP3 Attacks 2/3 hit, 5/6 wound, no saves MEQ deaths 2.2
DWK 12 Attacks 2/3 hit, 5/6 wound, 1/3 MEQ deaths 2.2
MEQ 11 Attacks 1/2 hit, 1/3 wound, 1/6 DWK deaths 0.3

Score MEQ 5.2 DWK 0.5

DWK T4 charges 10 man MEQ
Overwatch 20 shots (everyone has a bolter in this squad) 1/6 hit, 1/2 wound, 1/6 DWK deaths 0.3
Step I10
DWK 5 hit, 1/2 wound, 1/3 MEQ deaths 0.8
Step I4
DWK 4 AP3 Attacks 2/3 hit, 5/6 wound, no saves MEQ deaths 2.2
DWK 12 Attacks 2/3 hit, 5/6 wound, 1/3 MEQ deaths 2.2
MEQ 11 Attacks 1/2 hit, 1/2 wound, 1/6 DWK deaths 0.5

Score MEQ 5.2 DWK 0.8

THSS T4 charges 10 man MEQ
Overwatch 20 shots (everyone has a bolter in this squad) 1/6 hit, 1/2 wound, 1/6 THSS deaths 0.3
Step I4
MEQ 12 Attacks 1/2 hit, 1/2 wound, 1/6 THSS deaths 0.5
Step I1
THSS 12 Attacks 1/2 hit, 5/6 wound no saves MEQ deaths 5.0

Score MEQ 5.0 THSS 0.8

DWKs were never hyped up to be amazing units that broke metas and crushed tourneys.

So how are they over rated? They were sold as a unit that was a tasty little hardcounter to "super" units like MCs, Death Starts, or perhaps the occaisional Land Raider. In this respect they are not only good, but amazing at their job.

And no, a squad of Deathwing Terms is not the same. WS5 and the ability to go S10 on a buttload of attacks makes them superior at their job. Not to mention their T5 ability.

In short, OP is over theory crafting this one.

I don't understand why people think that WS5 T5 3++ termies are bad compared to normal DW termies. Even without smite mode (which is amazing) they can do anything. Maybe some things not particularly well, but I would have faith in them where ever i needed them.

tgf wrote:


Its amazing how many people are just bad at math or to lazy to run the numbers.

Thanks for the maths -- I was actually saying DWKs are pretty good anyway, though, if you noticed.

It's good to know they do work out only marginally worse (if that) than TH/SS termies against power armour -- even more reason to take them (something I already planned to do anyway, as I thought I indicated).

It's worth bearing in mind that TH/SS termies are a little cheaper, too, though (you can almost get 6 C:SM TH/SS guys for the price of 5 DWKs; even CA TH/SS guys enough cheaper that you could buy one of them a heavy weapon too... and of course they're probably troops). I still think DWK have a significant role to play in a competitive DA list. They're incredibly resilient, versatile, and deadly for their price.

Sorry ian, I quoted your post but it wasn't directed at you.

Ah, no worries.

Yeah, I think that people massively underestimate a S6 AP4 power weapon -- but even more so when it's on a T5 2+/3++ platform. It doesn't matter that in some cases it might take DWKs fractionally longer than TH/SS termies to take down the enemy... the enemy is still going down.

They are really quite good they do theire job well and allow you to thin hordes before they strike whereas th/ss terminators have severe problems with these units.

For me I only see using them this way:
Beliel
10 man dw
5 man knights

All three deepstrike and its my surgical strike.
Almost half the army in points but they will do what I want where I want.

Otherwise I just don't see me using them but I will by 10 because they are
Awesome tHSS with a simple conversion.

I posted this in the other thread already. DWK being less destructive is sometimes a good thing. They are a tarpit that can hide in hth. Think of them like...Dark Eldar Wyches strategywise...just a lot tougher.

If you kill something on the charge, you can be shot at again.

If you're slow at killing a scoring unit but still eventually win, they're an annoying thorn. Use DWK to contest objectives, plug up space on the board with annoying hth's that never end, and use their single out ability to control the flow of a combat. I'm looking at you Mr. commissar hiding behind 50 guardsman!

I’ve only played a few games with them, but so far I’m pretty impressed with DWK. One thing I haven’t seen on this thread is how good they are against hordes. Normally, I’m really hesitant to charge a unit of DW into a large horde unit. Typically, the horde will get to strike first, potentially taking out one or two of the terminators and then I just don’t have enough attacks back to do significant damage to the horde. But with DWK, I’ll get all my attacks right up front, still wound on 2+ and still remove the save. So the horde gets fewer attacks back, those attacks are worse since the DWK can be T5, and ultimately, that makes the DWK more survivable against massed hordes.

Add in the fact that they can turn on Smite mode for a turn and you have a really flexible unit for cheaper than a unit of TH/SS DW. I can see these guys in many DA lists, usually dropping in behind enemy lines to disrupt their plans and contest objectives.