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Why would metal make a difference if in the number of sculpts? Seen the IG psykers? They were metal...

Its the company and not the material.
Compatible multi-part plastics are superior to toyish one pose sculpts of any material.

Maybe this is a software problem, or precisely , the politics of a company who prefers to copy a design and recycle it endlessly instead of several sculpts ? Not by limits of the software, just the temptation to choose the easy path and copy and paste and add a few details and save money.
So rather the advantage of software misused.

I'm all for plastic, but I'm not all for this "everything only goes on the model one way" thing GW tend to do with bigger plastics like the Vargheists and the Ogre plastics, and even the Orc Boar Boyz. It makes everything ridiculously difficult to model without sculpting muscle definition back in, but it's either that or have a second set of miniatures in exactly the same pose as the first box you bought.

Maybe I've just been extremely lucky, but I haven't needed to return any finecast I've bought. Sure there has been some minor defects on a couple of models, but these were always in impossible-to-see locations such as the inside edge of an arm or the inside of a backpack that glues to the model. Even the 2nd-hand finecast I've picked up from ebay was all good.

I also vastly prefer it over metal because not only is it easier to convert (like putting lash whips on my Tyrant Guard), but it doesn't have the balance issues some sculpts do. My metal Hive Guard and Zoanthropes were always getting chipped by falling over on uneven terrain. The finecast ones don't have this problem at all.

Honestly I would hate to see this change, if only because of the inevitable price increase that will accompany it.

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

 Flashman wrote:
Well I would cheer, cos I like a lot of the plastic characters, but I suspect this will be another reasons to... well, you know what.

Automatically Appended Next Post:


You want to take a guess at how many of this new model will be cast correctly, then take a guess at how long this sword will last:
a)packaging
b)transport to retail
c)opening
d)assembly/painting
c)transporting to games
e)tabletop use
f)potential drop

This is EXACTLY what I was thinking when I saw this exact same pic. That Chaost Star in the middle of the blade is kinda cool looking, but is a terrible idea, from a design point of view. Even in metal or plastic, the potential for breaking is really high. Poor decision.

As for moving away from Finecast, I support it if it means more of the great plastic characters. The CSM Aspiring Champ is awesome, though $20 for a single mini is kind of steep.

-C6

 Pacific wrote:
...put simply despite the advances in plastic sculpting method (of which there have been many) plastic can simply not contain the detail that resin or metal potentially offer to the sculptor. Ease of construction yes, ease of conversion yes, but your character models are going to be looking more than a little 'plain jane' in the future if this turns out to be true. And this is before we start talking about undercuts, and the other limits placed on the sculptor when using plastic. Each medium offers something, and they complement each other.

I think your statement needs some qualifiers.

I started with miniatures a little over 20 years ago. Yes, I have metal models (battletech) from that time which are still in one piece. Yes, the edges were (and still are) sharp on those models. Yes, I also have plenty of metal models that have simply come apart from use. It may be a difference between those actively used versus those that have sat on shelves or in drawers.

That said, I have certainly purchased a fair number of metal GW models (hive tyrant for example) over the past 3 or 4 years. Not one of those had what I would classify as a higher level of detail than the DE plastics that came out 2 years ago. In many cases the GW metal models have had serious issues with fitting that required hard labor to try and resolve. Filing, pinning and more being some of my least favorite activities. Heck, some of the designs have such serious inherent flaws that they should never have been produced at all: Zoanthropes for example: very top heavy.

Bear in mind that I didn't have these types of fitting and drilling issues with the older Ral Partha miniatures. Even the "not plastic" / metal hybrid models simply fit.

So claims stating "metal is better!" is put to the test based on models available for purchase today. In today's market plastics are of a much higher quality than both resin and metal models currently being sold. Very very few places appear to be taking the time to do metal right; GW wasn't certainly not one of them. Nor did GW bother to do finecast correctly either. Quite frankly, FW has been around long enough that resin mixtures and production should have been a very well known and quantifiable property. With how finecast was done it sure seems like management didn't bother bringing anyone from that group in to help drive things.

GW then has only two options available to them:
1. Continue producing finecast and deal with the inevitable replacement costs; or,
2. Drop finecast, move to plastics and attempt to justify $40 for an independent character.

Given GW's history, they'll change materials and increase costs whether or not an increase is even remotely justified.

 1hadhq wrote:
Why would metal make a difference if in the number of sculpts? Seen the IG psykers? They were metal...

Its the company and not the material.
Compatible multi-part plastics are superior to toyish one pose sculpts of any material.

Maybe this is a software problem, or precisely , the politics of a company who prefers to copy a design and recycle it endlessly instead of several sculpts ? Not by limits of the software, just the temptation to choose the easy path and copy and paste and add a few details and save money.
So rather the advantage of software misused.

There's also the matter of the mold. A plastic mold is a very large (usually 40-80cm or bigger in each dimension), very heavy, very big thing weighing hundreds of pounds that generally has to be moved by overhead crane from storage, to the injection machine, and then moved by overhead crane back out again. On the low end they cost about 5 figures usually, sometimes only perhaps 4 figures for very small tings, for a kit like a tank or a squad, you're looking at a 6 figure layout quite often and several months of production.

The payout comes from being able to use that mold for years or decades on end to produce potentially millions or tens of millions of plastic thingies.

So, with plastic, you're likely to see fewer poses/options/etc because the company has a huge financial incentive to minimize the number of molds they need to make and instead to sell huge numbers of those molds.


When it comes to Resin or Metal, the molds themselves cost much less to make and can be produced much quicker but have to be replaced/fixed more often, meaning there's a whole lot more room, incentive to make lots of different types of miniatures.




Honestly, to be fair, I've never had a problem with Finecast in and of itself, I like the idea of resin mini's as there's a lot of advantages to them (especially as some simple hot water and bending allow for tons of minor conversion/fixing/etc potential). That said, I certainly can understand the draw to metal in some circumstances. It's always nice to have a big, heavy impressive commander model Fincecast's problem has been that it's had awful quality control and for some reason however they decided to manufacture them they needed 9 bajillion gates on every model in the *worst* places. I consider it a failing of execution rather than concept.

That said, I also don't think they should have gone with it on everything. Metal works best for the tiny models with fiddly bits, those should have been kept metal. Resin works on the big guys where metal is too heavy and people like to do lots of conversion stuff on them.

The problem is that if plastic replaces Finecast, we will see even higher prices. Look at the new chaos Lord in the Advanced orders. Single monopose mini, for $25. Completely ludicrous. That's more than (most) Finecast figures that are like him in size, and everyone seems to agree that those prices are already too high!

Belial is "only" $22.50, and is a Terminator-size figure on a 40mm base.

clively wrote:


So claims stating "metal is better!" is put to the test based on models available for purchase today. In today's market plastics are of a much higher quality than both resin and metal models currently being sold. Very very few places appear to be taking the time to do metal right; GW wasn't certainly not one of them. Nor did GW bother to do finecast correctly either. Quite frankly, FW has been around long enough that resin mixtures and production should have been a very well known and quantifiable property. With how finecast was done it sure seems like management didn't bother bringing anyone from that group in to help drive things.

Given GW's history, they'll change materials and increase costs whether or not an increase is even remotely justified.

That might well be the case with GW, but other manufacturers are consistently putting stuff out that trumps anything possible when produced in plastic. I would say that probably a good 75% of the Infinity releases would not be possible in plastic, or at least not in their current form and without sacrificing the level of detail that has lead to them having such a high reputation within the industry.

This is just picking one model from that range. Nothing in plastic comes even close to that level of detail (and yes this is 28-30mm)


You could equally say the same with some of the Malifaux stuff, some of the miniatures from the Kingdom Death Kickstarter, or any number of others currently producing (Dark Age, Freebooters Fate, McVey etc.) - most of these miniature lines are already cheaper than the charge put forward by GW for its character models. GW have been protected from the competition, to an extent, by the lack of consumer knowledge in the past, and the selling power of those big power-armoured shoulder pads. With the changing market and a greater saturation of rival miniature companies (with more exposure than ever) we'll see how far those two aforementioned selling points are able to stretch.

clively wrote:


In today's market plastics are of a much higher quality than both resin and metal models currently being sold. Very very few places appear to be taking the time to do metal right;

I don't know what places you shop but the big names do do metals in hight quality, Hasslefree, Infinity, Freebooter just to name you 3 of the best, for a reason Griffin moulds ( the best metal caster) is always booked non stop...

As for plastic today being superior to metals sorry man but you are clueless of plastic limitations and metal capacities ( which is strange for a seasoned collector like you)... I could try to debate this with you but that sentence reveals such lack of observation that I don't know where to even start.

Here's one example... Old minis, forget the design... look at the details specially faces and eyes... okish right? Nope! amazing since these are 15mm... good luck casting HALF those details in plastic.

Whatever you may think, plastic will always be the material of preference for the vast majority of gamers. And as far as detail goes, GW and Dreamforge are putting out stuff easily as detailed. On top of that, Infinity figures actually lack a lot of crisp detail. This is generally compensated for by great painters.

Single most important reason for me to stick to metal is: stripping

Metal is unsurpassed in that respect. Dump it in thinner, clean and it's new.

Plastic and resin just have to be handled so tenderly.

 Scottywan82 wrote:
Whatever you may think, plastic will always be the material of preference for the vast majority of gamers. And as far as detail goes, GW and Dreamforge are putting out stuff easily as detailed. On top of that, Infinity figures actually lack a lot of crisp detail. This is generally compensated for by great painters.

I'm tempted to post some kind of 'Wat' or 'not sure if serious' internet meme here...

Plus, an awful lot of Infinity models are just...well...generic. Nice models don't get me wrong...but they're rather bland.

Also, Hasslefree...yeah. Hardly a shining beacon of quality. If it weren't for their nude female sculpts they probably would have sunk by now.

 Pacific wrote:

 Scottywan82 wrote:
Whatever you may think, plastic will always be the material of preference for the vast majority of gamers. And as far as detail goes, GW and Dreamforge are putting out stuff easily as detailed. On top of that, Infinity figures actually lack a lot of crisp detail. This is generally compensated for by great painters.

I'm tempted to post some kind of 'Wat' or 'not sure if serious' internet meme here...

100%. I've been gaming for nearly 20 years and all I ever buy now is plastic. Metal is crap.

 Squigsquasher wrote:
Plus, an awful lot of Infinity models are just...well...generic. Nice models don't get me wrong...but they're rather bland.

Also, Hasslefree...yeah. Hardly a shining beacon of quality. If it weren't for their nude female sculpts they probably would have sunk by now.

Again... 'Wat'... what the feth is going on here.... ?! Someone .. anyone, please help me! Have I slipped in to some kind of parallel universe where black is white, Hasslefree poor quality and Infinity models are bland?!

 Squigsquasher wrote:


Also, Hasslefree...yeah. Hardly a shining beacon of quality. If it weren't for their nude female sculpts they probably would have sunk by now.

Brilliant... You have no idea what and to who Kev sculpts do you?
Don't want to sound arrogant but blimey it gets hard to debate with such lack of knowledge.

Single most important reason for me to stick to metal is: stripping

Metal is unsurpassed in that respect. Dump it in thinner, clean and it's new.

Plastic and resin just have to be handled so tenderly.

That's not true for plastic. I use Simple Green to clean my minis. The time it takes for it to strip metal and plastic miniatures alike is exactly the same, with the same level of results. It doesn;t take effect instantly like thinner, or something, but I can afford to be patient for the 2-3 days it takes.

Finecast is another story entirely. As far as I've heard, even Simple Green will destroy a model you are trying to strip.

Hardly. Hasslefree miniatures are pathetic. Like 1980s GW quality.

Likely because they are the same material.

@Pacific, Just look at the example you posted. It's rather generic Sci-Fi. No real flavour. Just a Crysis 3 reject. Most of the Infinity models seem to sell on (admittedly very nicely sculpted) hexagons.

That's why I like 40K, and whilst I don't like many of their scuplts I do like the Warmahordes aesthetic. They both have real flavour and character.

Infinity...just doesn't.

And as for hasslefree, just look at some of their stock photos. Horrible sculpting. Blobby, rounded edges, proportions that make the worst GW model look like a Michelangelo work...Granted they have got better, but their main selling point is cheesecake.

 Pacific wrote:
Again... 'Wat'... what the feth is going on here.... ?! Someone .. anyone, please help me! Have I slipped in to some kind of parallel universe where black is white, Hasslefree poor quality and Infinity models are bland?!

Have you counted the number of skulls on the entire range of Infinity figures? They're fewer than there are on Throgg alone! If that's not proof enough of their blandness and lack of detail, I don't know what is!

Really? I would argue with that. I have some of their Grymn space-dwarves, and the detail is just as good as any other metal model I might buy today. Unfortunately, they are just too small for GW's "28mm" scale.

 -DE- wrote:

 Pacific wrote:
Again... 'Wat'... what the feth is going on here.... ?! Someone .. anyone, please help me! Have I slipped in to some kind of parallel universe where black is white, Hasslefree poor quality and Infinity models are bland?!

Have you counted the number of skulls on the entire range of Infinity figures? They're fewer than there are on Throgg alone! If that's not proof enough of their blandness and lack of detail, I don't know what is!

You have forgotten the most important rule of design.

There is NO SUCH THING as too many skulls.

Also, for everyone's whining about "too any skulls!" a great deal of the conversions I've seen on Dakka actually add MORE skulls.

 Scottywan82 wrote:

 Pacific wrote:

 Scottywan82 wrote:
Whatever you may think, plastic will always be the material of preference for the vast majority of gamers. And as far as detail goes, GW and Dreamforge are putting out stuff easily as detailed. On top of that, Infinity figures actually lack a lot of crisp detail. This is generally compensated for by great painters.

I'm tempted to post some kind of 'Wat' or 'not sure if serious' internet meme here...

100%. I've been gaming for nearly 20 years and all I ever buy now is plastic. Metal is crap.

OK, as long as you realise that, regarding detail and sculpting methods possible with plastic when compared to metal (as posted by sculptors, on this very forum on occasion), yours is not the common consensus.

Every GW customer has entire boxes of leftover skull bits, what do you suppose they should do with them? Donate to the poor?

 NAVARRO wrote:

 devilution wrote:
I am the only one who likes metal minis :( ?

No, any serious collector will prefer metal

Plastic good for converting and multipart armies etc, resin good for nothing and metal the best piece you can have in your collections displays, all undercuts in there, nice textures and details besides metal weight gives soul to your minis.

Quoted for truth!

Plus metal is ready to go. Once I started my all metal Tallarn army and realized I could just pop them out of blisters and go I fell back in love with metal.

Now if we could just get lead back.

 Squigsquasher wrote:
@Pacific, Just look at the example you posted. It's rather generic Sci-Fi. No real flavour. Just a Crysis 3 reject. Most of the Infinity models seem to sell on (admittedly very nicely sculpted) hexagons.

That's why I like 40K, and whilst I don't like many of their scuplts I do like the Warmahordes aesthetic. They both have real flavour and character.

Infinity...just doesn't.

Methinks you're not really looking at much of the Infinity line then. If you're only looking at the Yu-Jing, Ariadna and Pan-Oceania basic troopers, yeah, sure, they're relatively generic anime style models. Their more elite units have a lot of character however and if you've seen the alien Combined Army or Nomad lines at all you'd have a completely different impression.

 1hadhq wrote:
Why would metal make a difference if in the number of sculpts? Seen the IG psykers? They were metal...

Its the company and not the material.
Compatible multi-part plastics are superior to toyish one pose sculpts of any material.

Metal molds are relatively easy to make, people can even make them in a garage. But plastic require expensive steel molds.

You're right though there had been a huge change in GW's culture they just produce fewer sculpts these days. I look at some of the Necromunda guys I've been collecting recently and want to weep. A gang with 10 or more scultps! Sure maybe they worked off of 4 or 5 models and modified them but still...

These days we get stuff like the 3 psykers or 3 Ordo Malleus inquisitors who are all CLEARLY the same figure with minor changes in details.

Then I look at Reaper who seem to put out more original sculpts per month than GW and fall in love with a new company.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AegisGrimm wrote:


Finecast is another story entirely. As far as I've heard, even Simple Green will destroy a model you are trying to strip.

Interesting detail if true.

I wonder if it might not be deliberate to bring an end to the secondary market.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Squigsquasher wrote:
@Pacific, Just look at the example you posted. It's rather generic Sci-Fi. No real flavour. Just a Crysis 3 reject. Most of the Infinity models seem to sell on (admittedly very nicely sculpted) hexagons.

That's why I like 40K, and whilst I don't like many of their scuplts I do like the Warmahordes aesthetic. They both have real flavour and character.

Infinity...just doesn't.

Methinks you're not really looking at much of the Infinity line then. If you're only looking at the Yu-Jing, Ariadna and Pan-Oceania basic troopers, yeah, sure, they're relatively generic anime style models. Their more elite units have a lot of character however and if you've seen the alien Combined Army or Nomad lines at all you'd have a completely different impression.

Maybe. I dunno. They just, simply put, aren't my cup of tea. I don't hate them, although I do hate it when a 40K thread is hijacked by some asshat screaming "play Infinity instead!" which has admittedly coloured my perception of them. I will admit they are superbly sculpted though.

 Squigsquasher wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Squigsquasher wrote:
@Pacific, Just look at the example you posted. It's rather generic Sci-Fi. No real flavour. Just a Crysis 3 reject. Most of the Infinity models seem to sell on (admittedly very nicely sculpted) hexagons.

That's why I like 40K, and whilst I don't like many of their scuplts I do like the Warmahordes aesthetic. They both have real flavour and character.

Infinity...just doesn't.

Methinks you're not really looking at much of the Infinity line then. If you're only looking at the Yu-Jing, Ariadna and Pan-Oceania basic troopers, yeah, sure, they're relatively generic anime style models. Their more elite units have a lot of character however and if you've seen the alien Combined Army or Nomad lines at all you'd have a completely different impression.

Maybe. I dunno. They just, simply put, aren't my cup of tea. I don't hate them, although I do hate it when a 40K thread is hijacked by some asshat screaming "play Infinity instead!" which has admittedly coloured my perception of them. I will admit they are superbly sculpted though.

Always a good reason to bad mouth the quality of a model then!

While you may not like the aesthetic direction of Infinity, you can't deny the level of detail Corvus Belli squeeze into their 28mm models, nor that doing so in plastic just isn't possible becaue of plastics giant mold limitation (undercuts).

I wasn't intentionally bad mouthing them. I am sorry if I did come across as a bit harsh.

Gah, I need to get better at wording my speech...