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Everytime, I hear the recent prices of GW products, I hear them in the voice of Chris Rock in his bullet control sketch

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

 mikhaila wrote:

Well, as some one that runs gaming stores and orders direct from GW, I can tell you this is pretty much already happening. Every week when I re-order, most of the finecast I need "Has been moved to direct". I have less and less GW product on my wall, for the simple reason GW won't sell it to me. They will graciously allow me to pay at a much higher rate, and get the product in generic white label packaging. Somehow, paying more for a badly packaged product hasn't worked well. I still do special orders, but quit trying to keep the whole line in stock.

My blister display is a fraction of what it used to be, and getting smaller. All new releases are temporary. For instance, I got Belial in with the new DA releases, and I already can't reorder him. Finecast is leaving all stores, both independent and GW.

GW used to have a clue. They encouraged stores to carry more stock, so they could sell more models. Now that they have cut what I can carry, they wonder why I'm selling less. I explain the same thing over and over. The higher ups don't care, lower level sales reps have no power.

Less GW on my wall = less sales of GW in the store = more of other peoples games I sell to make up with it.

Here speaks someone who managed to almost totally diffuse my bad opinion on GW over a couple of beers and some events in the past. Mikhaila is an excellent businessman and runs a gaming and comic store that should be held up as an example of 'how you should be doing it'. He sold a ton of GW stuff, even to experienced gamers coming to events, people already 'in the know' for ordering online.

Mike, first I read your response when GW pulled any support for tournaments and now I read this from you. It's a window into how GW are treating the indy stores and why when I asked the nearby geek shop here in Gloucester, he laughed and said 'no way will I deal with that company again'. The upper echelons just appear to have become so surrounded by yes men and a culture of absolute belief that they are piloting the ship directly into the beach with the expectation that the land will retreat before them.

This is a guy who absolutely loved the GW company, as an independent retailer, who explained to me the benefits they gave him, the quality of service and the good relationship they enjoyed. Yet here now is someone pissed with the company and already working out how best to protect his business and promote selling other lines over GW, his post should be being held up in board meetings inside the bunker and serious questions being leveled about the ramifications. There won't be, because the company's culture does not allow for self analysis or critical thinking.

It's like they are just going to push everything till it breaks and then...? Either retreat or sell off the IP and disappear. From the outside looking in, it's a madhouse.

Starts slow clap.

I think you could pick almost anyone from DakkaDakka and they could run this company better.

 Kingsley wrote:

This is currently a golden age of 40k, but many people simply can't accept the fact that GW is actually doing things right for once and hence the Internet naysayers are still in full effect.

Its a golden age of 40K, but its not a golden age of GW. Far from it.

 angel of ecstasy wrote:
To me this sounds like a step in the right direction on the road to the rumoured transition to plastic. Now I've never dealt with Finecast, but from what I've heard plastic is preferable, and what people want.

It was only a rumor to those of you outside of GW manufacturing, when PT was in charge it was part of his plan to move as much as possible over to plastic.

I can't see how Finecast is a better product for GW, when they are having to deal with the large number of returns, and the molds cost more. Having to send out replacements all the time has got to cut into their bottom line. It's like they specifically decided upon the medium that would perform the worst for them economically.

Unfortunately, I think it will stay, as there are a large number of people that think that Finecast was this gigantic, great improvement over metal, and I just can't see how they can think that way. Everything is bad about it, even the higher price.

With the amount of plastic units that GW produces to cover 90-100% of the standard models that will make up any given army, I can't understand why they can't still just produce the characters in metal like they used to.

Right now I am wanting to start a Deathwing army, and despite what some have said, I really like the Belial model. But I have to sit with the fact that I will never have him, because I won't pay the exorbitant cost of Finecast versus if it were metal, and still have to deal with the inadequacies of the Finecast material and sculpting quality.

Thye could switch to plastic for characters, but I don't think they are that smart. I have no faith in them to make good decisions anymore. I mean, look at the goofy ways that they have done so already towards that end.

For instance, why do they decide to produce a single-sprue Chaos Aspiring Champion in plastic for 20 fething dollars - a model that everyone already has seven different analogies of if they bought the Dark Vengeance set (or bought them as separate bitz online for $4.99 like I did) - when they could have produced Belial in plastic, the one character that people will want to buy alongside their new Deathwing Terminators and would be a flagship character of the newest army to be released?

 SickSix wrote:


Starts slow clap.

I think you could pick almost anyone from DakkaDakka and they could run this company better.

Well....

 Kingsley wrote:

This is currently a golden age of 40k, but many people simply can't accept the fact that GW is actually doing things right for once and hence the Internet naysayers are still in full effect.

Not quite everyone!

 AegisGrimm wrote:


Unfortunately, I think it will stay, as there are a large number of people that think that Finecast was this gigantic, great improvement over metal, and I just can't see how they can think that way. Everything is bad about it, even the higher price.

Don't quite agree with this. I actually believe that, in theory, Finecast is an improvement over metal. If it was in reality what GW claimed it was then I think people would rave about it.

The concept is sound, the execution is flawed.

Fenrir Kitsune wrote:

 Kingsley wrote:

This is currently a golden age of 40k, but many people simply can't accept the fact that GW is actually doing things right for once and hence the Internet naysayers are still in full effect.

Its a golden age of 40K, but its not a golden age of GW. Far from it.

This, pretty much. 40k is played a lot whereas WHFB has lost a lot of popularity and LotR / The Hobbit...not worth mentioning. At all.

I take it, Kingsley, that everytime you dodge a point, you agree with us?

 Sigvatr wrote:

Fenrir Kitsune wrote:

 Kingsley wrote:

This is currently a golden age of 40k, but many people simply can't accept the fact that GW is actually doing things right for once and hence the Internet naysayers are still in full effect.

Its a golden age of 40K, but its not a golden age of GW. Far from it.

This, pretty much. 40k is played a lot whereas WHFB has lost a lot of popularity and LotR / The Hobbit...not worth mentioning. At all.

I take it, Kingsley, that everytime you dodge a point, you agree with us?

What points am I "dodging?" I never said it was a WHFB or LotR/The Hobbit golden age. The Hobbit has actually been very unpopular in my area, and WHFB faces more direct competition from several other games as well as some questionable design choices for 8th edition.

It must take an epic level of failure for the stubborn children running GW to admit to failure.

Geez, guys - lay off the personal attacks on Kingsley. He was just trying to use actual numbers to talk about the costs of armies. We all continuously complain about GW's price increases, but he went to look at the real numbers including inflation (which, seriously, how many of you have done that? I imagine there are probably a few of you who have also done it, but not many.)

I looked at the numbers myself, just running a comparison of the Space Marine catalog from 2004 to now, converting 2004 prices into today's dollars. While I wouldn't make a blanket statement that 'armies are cheaper today than in 2004', there does appear to be more complexity to the pricing than simply an across the board price increase. I think Kingsley's conclusion about cheaper armies now was spoken without necessarily looking at the full range of armies, but the methods he was using to compare prices were sound. Until you sit down and decide to crunch the numbers yourself, I'd cut Kingsley a little slack.

Personally, I think there's actually a really interesting discussion to be had on how to buy a cheaper army today than in 2004 (which is distinctly plausible.) That said, I'd recommend if you want to debate and beef about price increases that it should be taken to a new thread rather than clogging the FC thread about it.

This could be a Golden Age of GW and it should be. Never before has GW's influence been so wide spread. The iron is hot and cooling quickly. The time to strike is passing by. Insane prices and a failure in company leadership, IMO, have spoiled this. The prices drive away existing customers, forget about new customers. In fact, don't even tell anyone you know how much money this hobby costs, because they will think that you are an idiot.
In the case of Finecast vs Metal; Metal is undeniable as top quality. Even compared to the fine detail of Forgeworld models. People who have no interest in models know that a expertly assembled metal miniature is nice. As far as assembly issues with the product, I've never had any as I assemble models at a masterclass level. My metal Thunderfire cannon is flawless, because I built it that way. My metal Lord of Change is the same and will not break before your Finecast one. Also, I can kill you with it. Easily.

I wonder comparing the prices with 2004 is the amount of miniatures in blisters/boxes the same as now?

Meanwhile the news that FAILCRAP is possibly being removed sweeps acorss the world!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WBrLHMCTDAA

Hmmm, 5 minis with optional parts for 33-35USD compared to 10 minis at 30-33 dollars. divide the dollars by the minis to see how much per mini it comes out to. Yes, you have spare bits to add to another box of 5 guys, and a 5 man generic combat squad at their online store sells for 25USD, no changes, no extras, just the basic models at the present price, or what was 3 marines for 8usd is now maybe 10-12usd?

 shasolenzabi wrote:
Hmmm, 5 minis with optional parts for 33-35USD compared to 10 minis at 30-33 dollars. divide the dollars by the minis to see how much per mini it comes out to. Yes, you have spare bits to add to another box of 5 guys, and a 5 man generic combat squad at their online store sells for 25USD, no changes, no extras, just the basic models at the present price, or what was 3 marines for 8usd is now maybe 10-12usd?

What comparison are you making here?

 Jehan-reznor wrote:
I wonder comparing the prices with 2004 is the amount of miniatures in blisters/boxes the same as now?

Not for all of the sets. But it is easy enough to convert the numbers based on a per-model cost.

I wonder if the transition from hand sculpted models to CAD based designs has lessened the cost of profuction at all.

That's something I'd be interested to see.

Thanks for your insight, mechanicalhorizon. Really, really interesting stuff, there!

Personally, I gave finecrap a chance. I've bought about 7 minis, everything from single heroes to Azhag. Every one has had detail-obliterating casting flaws. Not flash or vents, those aren't flaws but a necessary part of the manufacturing process. Could some of the venting be better? Sure. But whining about vents and flash is like whining about bones in your whole fish, i.e. silly.

No, the problems were bubbles, incompletely filled molds, and flat areas so thin I could see through them. These are flaws, and a sign of an out of control manufacturing process. This was over a span of time, but having worked in both QA and QC (there IS a difference) in other industries, it was clear to me that this was not going to get better. GW had decided that those flaws were acceptable, which is why they were sold in the first place and continued to be sold.

The choice was suck it up and drop my standards for what is acceptable, or spend my money elsewhere. I chose the latter.

It was one of the last nails in the coffin driving me from GW to all the other excellent minis that are out there.

Edit- in conclusion, finecast is crap. Minimizing its use would be dmart. Getting rid of it completely be smarter.

SM commander sprue. 'Nuff said

 gunslingerpro wrote:
I wonder if the transition from hand sculpted models to CAD based designs has lessened the cost of profuction at all.

That's something I'd be interested to see.

I don't have numbers to show, but yeah it's decreased their costs considerably.

Before, say for plastics, they would have to make the steel tool and get castings first before they could paint the model and photograph them for box sets, WD etc. That process from sculpt to steel tool could take over a year, IF the tool was made properly and worked properly. If not then they would have to make a new one and the WD team and studio would have to wait.

Going from CAD to rapid prototype is much faster. From CAD to RP parts takes a day or two, at most. No more waiting for the steel tool to be made and test castings to come out. You gets parts within a few days to a week. Then you make a resin castings of the RP parts, which takes another few days. Then you send those parts to the studio so they can paint them and get the box covers made, WD articles etc. All in just a few weeks after the initial sculpt is finished.

The lead time is so much shorter with CAD and it's more versatile. The steel tools are no longer tested when they are made, a computer program runs a virtual test on the molds before any tool is even started. Making changes is relatively easy compared to the old 3-up/pantograph method.

i hate, hate HATE finecast. None of my local shops will stock it so im stuck with ordering one line and every sculpt is redeiculous. Id rather have metal at least i know it would arive safely during shiping. Somebody at GW needs a good hard kick in the junk.

I don't know about a "Golden Age," there's a lot more competition now for GW, both in terms of other miniatures games and computer/console games...

That said, I think the product they're turning out is the best it's ever been, and the best in the industry. The quality of their plastic kits is the best injection molded styrene I've ever seen, and the artistic/design merits are very strong as well.

The Chaos Marines from the Dark Vengeance box are just insane.

I can't really speak to the prices, inflation, bitz per dollar, but I do confess to being rather dumbfounded by the prices (especially when Dark Vengeance is $80 at my FLGS). I went to get 3x Ravenwing bikes, they were $40... And Dark Vengeance, which has three plus, those Chaos Marines, plus Dark Angels, plus all manner of other gibberish, is $80...

So, the prices seem a bit high, but the quality of the printed materials and models (Finecast excepted), is off the charts.

Not sure how the hobby can grow, though, when even I choke a bit on the prices... I'm a (very) gainfully employed adult, I paint very slowly and carefully, and I still can't entirely stomach the prices.

 gunslingerpro wrote:
I wonder if the transition from hand sculpted models to CAD based designs has lessened the cost of profuction at all.
That's something I'd be interested to see.

They already did several copy-paste releases, e.g. Skullcrusher/Bloodcrusher mounts, Seeker/Hellstrider mounts, also Storm/Dark Talon.

 Gymnogyps wrote:
No, the problems were bubbles, incompletely filled molds, and flat areas so thin I could see through them. These are flaws, and a sign of an out of control manufacturing process. This was over a span of time, but having worked in both QA and QC (there IS a difference) in other industries, it was clear to me that this was not going to get better. GW had decided that those flaws were acceptable, which is why they were sold in the first place and continued to be sold.

I'm genuinely curious, Gymnogyps - how would you sum up the differences between QA and QC? From the outside, they sound like very similar roles.

QA is done during development, looking to achieve as few problems in a process as possible. Try to minimize the flaws.

QC is done during production, taking your (hopefully known) flaw rate, looking for the flaws that are produced, and removing/fixing them before they are off the production floor and on to sales. Acknowledge that the flaws exist - find them and don't sell them.

Microprocessors are a good example of this. Any flaw anywhere on the wafer can cause an entire CPU die to fail. So a quick QA solution is to shrink the die size. This is limited by technology, but done about every other major release for Intel. You have the same number of physical flaws (simplistic example!) on a wafer, but a higher % of good dies. QC takes all the dies that are completed and tests them for functionality. Pass the test = sold CPU. Fail = trash. Partial failures (on stress tests) will get a lower MHz rating.

Pulling it back in, I have seen enough good casts to know that Finecast can be usable. But I've also seen enough bad to know that their QA can't be that good and the failure rate is high. The flaws exist. The fact that they get into consumer hands this often means that either their QC is horrific, or they just don't care and say "return policy!"

Quark wrote:
Pulling it back in, I have seen enough good casts to know that Finecast can be usable. But I've also seen enough bad to know that their QA can't be that good and the failure rate is high. The flaws exist. The fact that they get into consumer hands this often means that either their QC is horrific, or they just don't care and say "return policy!"

Careful there pardner - claiming something other than that either that every finecast release is 100% identical to the green, or that every Finecast release has more holes then a rural highway sign.... well, you know what we do to reasonable fellers round these parts?

So far my experience with GW's finecast line has been mixed. I have purchased a blister of Incubi with issues, and a set of mandrakes with issues. My Oblits and Mutilators have been good so far. Asmodeus had issues with the backpack.

Having messed with resin for my own uses in the past, I am less than thrilled to deal with Finecast. Too mercurial a material.

If GW decides to produce plastic lines at reasonable prices (not likely but one can hope). All the better.

But I will believe it when I see it.

I would likely say that any new plastic characters will be at or above the Finecast prices. Probably about the same scale as Finecast to metal, when Finecast replaces metal models with about a 50% markup or higher. The new advance order Chaos Lord is $25. That's more expensive than Finecast Terminator characters on 40mm bases.

 AegisGrimm wrote:
I would likely say that any new plastic characters will be at or above the Finecast prices. Probably about the same scale as Finecast to metal, when Finecast replaces metal models with about a 50% markup or higher. The new advance order Chaos Lord is $25. That's more expensive than Finecast Terminator characters on 40mm bases.

And the limited Chaplain in Dark Vengeance only cost $8...


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Oh, and he came with a full-color page describing him, and showing how to assemble him.