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I'm still waiting for my Relic Knights so I feel for you guys! Can't wait for the APC, I got a squad of the regular troopers and love em, so really looking forward to seeing more.

 Azazelx wrote:
I agree with everything you said here. My only caveat is in regard to the last sentence, in that I'm personally not willing to pay for it upfront anymore. I'd rather be part of the retail customer support on the other end than pay slightly less, except 2 years upfront. It's ok though, Yonan will cover where I would have been.

I've got your back Aza! ; p

Actually, it's probably better if you don't tell me what kinds of decisions are best for me to make. That sort of thing usually causes me a great deal of offence. I'll call it nice this time, so let's keep it that way?

My counter to "KS item never have been made otherwise" is pretty much "If you want people's money, organise better, and be properly responsible to them for it, or you might not get the money again." - it's already an interest-free loan, and one that many KS try to make an actual profit off as well as covering their costs to make the foozles.


These days I look at KS a lot more closely, and if it's a smallish amount (SDE) then I might risk it, even if the creator has an awful track record - as I did. Despite using the thread for sporting snark, this is the same attitude that I stayed in the Raging Heroes KS with - after I cut $350-odd from my pledge amount.

For larger/more expensive projects, I look much more closely at the creator, their track record and how well they appear to have done their homework. Jeremy from Creature Casters, Flying Frog, Battle Systems.

Others have permanently burnt their bridges with me based on a variety of factors, such as bs levels, poor quality, lies, respect towards backers, or lack of communication (McVey, MERCS/Megacon Games, Grindhouse). Sometimes, though - I still feth up. I backed Robotech Tactics last year based on the positivity of the Dakka thread rather than doing my own investigation of Palladium's competence. They got fooled (and I in turn) by "98% complete and almost ready to roll into production". Baker Company's Winter War figures look like they're sculpted out of chewing gum (and still aren't here, despite the broken casting machine saga having been resolved a couple of months ago now).

DFG and (especially) WGF starts to come under "track record" at this stage, though I'm starting to wonder what's up with communication. It's also worth pointing out that this was one of the first KS I backed, and at the time, delays weren't the trope that they are now, and so the whole "you should have expected it, dill weed" line of argument is something being applied to this campaign retroactively. A year late on wave 3, no dates, no communication in a month, no end in sight isn't something I'm finding especially reasonable at this stage.

Still, the assumption for the KS in this genre is that most of the creators and their production partners are actually professionals, and while gak does indeed happen, the assumption that you should just automatically add 6-12-18 months to a KS promised date because kickstarter (despite all the promises being made at the time by the creators) is a pretty sad state of affairs, and speaks of a touch of "blame the victim" and Stockholm syndrome with a healthy dollop of star-fething. (Not you, but look in the comments of some of these campaigns).

After all, Kickstarters are based on a degree of trust and goodwill. Trust that we'll be kept reasonably informed, that the fulfilment date has a reasonable expectaton of actually being accurate, and trust that project managers aren't knowingly bull gaking us on the published KS fulfilment dates from day 1.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
**Note - above post is in responce to Tannhouser. Not Yonan. Yonan's got my back, you see. Like Sir Mix-A-Lot.

I never get the whole apathy thing when it comes to people in the TTG hobby. It's like they wake up in the morning, expect a good shelacking and are happy to get it and if someone comes along who isn't, well they're obviously ungrateful sots with their pointy noses in the air. Fine, Mark is the next best thing to sliced bread; he can come to your (collective, not pointing to anyone in particular) house and kick your dog and all you'll do is smile and say thank you. Great guy aside, this wasn't his first Kickstarter. Sure, it's his first with WGF but he has experience and if we say it's all WGF's fault we're ignoring what Mark himself said earlier, that he keeps tweaking things; that and we would be treading dangerously close to Defiance-guy water...."it's all the Chinese's fault." I would hazard a guess that a large part of the delays is due to Mark because WGF has proven that they can move product with other Kickstarters.

Just some thoughts. I don't have a dog I'm this fight any longer as Mark was only months, not years, late in getting my stuff to me.

Edit: Az, is your Posse on Broadway? (Mixalot song)

As someone who's only backed wave 3 products, yeah I'm not happy about this state of affairs. And if Mark ever had another KS and was being produced by WGF, I can pretty much say I wouldn't back it based on this experience.

Can't say I disagree with anything you said Aza and I definitely am more careful with my KS backing, and will pull my pledge if the campaign doesn't give enough solid info.

No offence was meant, intended, or even implied by my comments, I am sorry if you took it as such, and perhaps it is best if I drop the discussion at this point as I feel further discussion will go nowhere productive.

I've just given up now, screw it. I class my DFG money along with my Assimilation Host pledge as lost, and if something turns up in the post at some point it'll be a nice surprise. My pledge amount was nowhere near Aza's so it's easier for me to just let it go but it's still disappointing.

So far the only KS projects I've had deliver in two years (Assimilation was the first one I backed) have been a software project that required a small pledge, and a £200 tech project that delivered with awful documentation, I'm definitely soured on gaming kickstarters after this.

Part of me wonders if the project would have delivered on time if all the extra models and options hadn't been added

@charax, sorry to hear about the bad luck with the projects. I'm sure these and the troll forged aliens will show up eventually. RITides got his troll forged army and had it painted for adepticon, so they are slowly being made. He has a p&m blog here on dakka showing it off.

But I wholly believe you are correct, I think the unlocks are what screwed the timeline for this project.thats why the creaturecaster ks is so appealing to me right now. It ends in a few hours and Jeremy went in saying. " I havethismany models and can get xyz done before this date" he could draw more concepts an drake in more money, but is holding tight to hisnovember date.

I'm pretty sure that if Mark had more updates after the quite recent one (about a month ago?) he would communicate that information. As far as I'm aware, (I don't have any connection to Dreamforge other than painting the 'Keilerkopf' - surely evidence of progress - and being a KS backer) after a couple of very brief conversations about painting the APC, everything is progressing as planned if a little slower than Mark (and the KS backers of course) would like. Personally I have such a huge backlog of planned painting projects that the delay hasn't really bothered me. I have no doubt that my pledge (and yours) will be fully honoured.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Although decals aren't included with the 'Keilerkopf', suitable ones are easy enough to source so I've added a few...

http://dwartist.blogspot.co.uk/2014/05/wip-dreamgorge-keilerkopf-apc.html

Simple, yet gorgeous job. I bow to your talent.

As an aside, though... Would threads like these work in a realy life tyre?

 Tannhauser42 wrote:
No offence was meant, intended, or even implied by my comments, I am sorry if you took it as such, and perhaps it is best if I drop the discussion at this point as I feel further discussion will go nowhere productive.

I don't mind discussing stuff with you - It's always good to have other intelligent people to discuss things with, even if you disagree. It's just the part where you gave me advice that came off a little ...condescending that irked me. So with that in mind, please feel free to continue the discussion.

Charax wrote:
I've just given up now, screw it. I class my DFG money along with my Assimilation Host pledge as lost, and if something turns up in the post at some point it'll be a nice surprise. My pledge amount was nowhere near Aza's so it's easier for me to just let it go but it's still disappointing.
So far the only KS projects I've had deliver in two years (Assimilation was the first one I backed) have been a software project that required a small pledge, and a £200 tech project that delivered with awful documentation, I'm definitely soured on gaming kickstarters after this.
Part of me wonders if the project would have delivered on time if all the extra models and options hadn't been added

I've got full confidence that this KS will eventually deliver, and that the quality will be very high. I just expect it to be in 2015 at this stage - probably nothing at all delivered in 2014. I also think that the Assimilation host stuff will arrive (next year) and that the quality there will be more variable. Something like Raging Heroes will be of high quality if they don't go under from having spent all the funds prior to fulfilment, Defiance Games isn't something I backed or would expect anything to come out of, and Palladium/Robotech will have poor models and be lucky if it doesn't sink Palladium books.

Dwartist - I think "a little more slowly" is the understatement of the year. Anyway, the size of my backlog isn't really the issue here (I'll die long before I get close to finishing all my models) but the fact that it's overdue and the once-excellent comms are lacking. If it were about "plenty of stuff in the queue, then we'd just be donating our model money so these guys can start up businesses... right?

dwartist wrote:
I'm pretty sure that if Mark had more updates after the quite recent one (about a month ago?) he would communicate that information. As far as I'm aware, (I don't have any connection to Dreamforge other than painting the 'Keilerkopf' - surely evidence of progress - and being a KS backer) after a couple of very brief conversations about painting the APC, everything is progressing as planned if a little slower than Mark (and the KS backers of course) would like. Personally I have such a huge backlog of planned painting projects that the delay hasn't really bothered me. I have no doubt that my pledge (and yours) will be fully honoured.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Although decals aren't included with the 'Keilerkopf', suitable ones are easy enough to source so I've added a few...

http://dwartist.blogspot.co.uk/2014/05/wip-dreamgorge-keilerkopf-apc.html

Beautiful work, and it matches the stormtroopers you did for Mark in painting too! Good decals choice. Superior in looks in my mind to the Lameox

Agreed. These things would be cleaning up if only they were available when the Taurox came out...

 Azazelx wrote:
Agreed. These things would be cleaning up if only they were available when the Taurox came out...

The delays are actually a hurt on the sale of the Keilerkopf over the Tauraox, I am holding out for the Hanomag over the Taurox . I did find this inspirational conversion concept, The Germans apparently placed french turrets with the 37mm on some hanomags


As well as this odd looking variant for tank training.

Beautiful work Dwartist! Nice use of decals, the not completely oversaturated with unnecessary details design works well with them. Fully painted, the rubber tyres look great too, glad Mark went with them.

"Dwartist - I think "a little more slowly" is the understatement of the year. Anyway, the size of my backlog isn't really the issue here (I'll die long before I get close to finishing all my models) but the fact that it's overdue and the once-excellent comms are lacking. If it were about "plenty of stuff in the queue, then we'd just be donating our model money so these guys can start up businesses... right?"
I was, of course, expressing a personal opinion and I respect others right to be disgruntled about the delays (I don't agree about the lack of communication - the recent post by Mark was quite substantial and only a few weeks ago). I've suffered delays on all the KS' I've backed but the quality of the Dreamforge product is far superior to all I've backed bar the recent 'Afterlife' release and, for me, worth waiting for. Again, I must stress that this is a personal stance and judging by the comments here I seem to be in the minority but PERSONALLY I'm willing to wait for, what experience tells me, will be a high quality product.

I don't understand all the hate and negativity. Plenty of people, myself included, have received their pledges (from this kickstarter). It's coming, eventually, be patient. It's not like the Doom That Came To Atlantic City where the funds were embezzled or whatever and nobody ever received their gak.

chaos0xomega wrote:
I don't understand all the hate and negativity. Plenty of people, myself included, have received their pledges (from this kickstarter). It's coming, eventually, be patient. It's not like the Doom That Came To Atlantic City where the funds were embezzled or whatever and nobody ever received their gak.

I don't think I've read anything approaching hate in this thread (as an aside, why do people incessantly equate criticism with hate on this board?); there is a small amount of concern by some people about Mark being able to meet his stated delivery of Wave 2 by the end of Q2. I think that most, if not all, backers have a large amount of goodwill towards Mark as he's able to produce a high-quality product. There is some impatience in that this project is already more than a year behind schedule with some of the delay being Mark's own fault, by his own admission. Compound this with the fact that noone has seen renders or anything for Wave 3 and people are naturally concerned that this is becoming a project that will drag on into the unforeseeable future; which is where you're seeing some of the pessimism by some of the posters.

As an aside, I thought the Doom thing's backers were made whole by the company that bought out the rights. If people were really expecting Mark to "take the money and run", they'd compare him to Defiance....ew... makes me feel dirty even mentioning that "company".


Edit: yep they were.
http://diehardgamefan.com/2014/03/26/tabletop-review-the-doom-that-came-to-atlantic-city/

Chaos, no one thinks Marks scarpered with the money. There is however justified criticism when this project was bumped lower in the production queue by more recent projects at WGF. There are reasons for it, but it's still a justified complaint. Whilst I'm content to wait, I definitely see why people are antsy about the delay. It's not hate, a frequently very misused word. This is a very civil thread actually, especially given the delay which rightly imo gives people a substantial cause for complaint. We should be thankful that it's remained so civil, thanks to a number of factors... Marks communication, the quality of the items we've received, the free shipping of wave 1+2 if you opted for combined shipping when wave 3 is done, and mature posters keeping discussion constructive.

No renders of wave 3 agnosto? We've seen a completely painted model of the APC, a wave 3 item. Pretty sure we saw renders for the updated command squad too. Would like to see more of the Valkir and Black Widows too though of course ; ) Here's hoping Mark isn't having a problem getting the black widows to look good... he did a good job with Ada so he should be up to the task.

No hate here, just frustration at the lack of communications lately. Mark had been "popping in" every couple (3) weeks to give us a low down on what's happening and some sneak peeks. It's been well over a month now and even after a week of "negative" posts in his thread there's been no comment. Either he's on vacation, so close to unveiling a ton of stuff and just doesn't want to blow it, or is trying to figure a good pr excuse as why q2 is not going to happen and why its looking more like q4.

I'd just like an answer, it would most likely placate me. I seem to be the rabble rouser though so who really cares. I just don't want Mark and DFG to drop from my "hey these guys are awesome....but slow" to "I vaguely remember they still have something coming out" to "Palladium Books "

 Yonan wrote:
No renders of wave 3 agnosto? We've seen a completely painted model of the APC, a wave 3 item. Pretty sure we saw renders for the updated command squad too. Would like to see more of the Valkir and Black Widows too though of course ; ) Here's hoping Mark isn't having a problem getting the black widows to look good... he did a good job with Ada so he should be up to the task.

Ouch, yeah, I totally botched that one. I was thinking for some reason we were on Wave 2 with the APC and the Black Widows and Valkir were Wave 3 but that was my mistake there.

I mourn for Mark a bit. He would have cleaned up on the APC if he and WGF could have kept the project in the same year it was supposed to have dropped in.

Hopefully lesson learned for someone somewhere.

Darn it, no news! I thought for sure there was some with all the posts here. Stop teasing me, guys!

Hello all, I am not ready to post an update just yet… Please hang with me while we work through the final stage. I am VERY busy atm. generating box art, reviewing sprue layouts, pre T1 changes, instructions, and on and on. This is normal, there is a crunch phase where there are a lot of items that need to be provided and gone over near the end of each phase.

I was hoping to be able to update early last week but I had my workflow interrupted by a request to provide box art for most of the stage 3 items as WGF has a container leaving soon wants to start shipping as much as they can to the US in that shipment.

I should have an update next week?

All the best!
Mark

 NoseGoblin wrote:
Hello all, I am not ready to post an update just yet… Please hang with me while we work through the final stage. I am VERY busy atm. generating box art, reviewing sprue layouts, pre T1 changes, instructions, and on and on. This is normal, there is a crunch phase where there are a lot of items that need to be provided and gone over near the end of each phase.

I was hoping to be able to update early last week but I had my workflow interrupted by a request to provide box art for most of the stage 3 items as WGF has a container leaving soon wants to start shipping as much as they can to the US in that shipment.

I should have an update next week?

All the best!
Mark

It's good to hear something.

May I ask, does this bit mean that we might see shipment of part of wave 3, while the rest of it is still finishing up?

Doubt it shade, they are probably shipping one of their other kickstarters/projects and have space left over. I would doubt they would incur more costs by splitting wave three up. If enough is done I could see them boating the majority over then air freighting the rest upon completion. It would minimize air freight costs later and also mean shorter time as were not waiting on another boat later.

 Theophony wrote:
Doubt it shade, they are probably shipping one of their other kickstarters/projects and have space left over. I would doubt they would incur more costs by splitting wave three up. If enough is done I could see them boating the majority over then air freighting the rest upon completion. It would minimize air freight costs later and also mean shorter time as were not waiting on another boat later.

Well, the key thing that got me asking that was that WGF wanted box art for "most of the stage 3 items"...I don't see why they'd want that, specifically in connection with a shipping container leaving, unless they were planning on sending some of the stage 3 stuff now. I mean, the mini mortis' have been done for ages, and the mini weapons for the mini levis, too.

Yeah, I'm reading that as "We are shipping something over anyway and have space" and Mark had indicated that a large portion of Wave 3 was already done (the 15mm stuff, for instance) so they would be ready to roll if they could box them up. No sense sitting there, but given the costs involved I wouldn't expect them to do a mini-Wave 3 shipment. It does explain why Mark hasn't been able to post; he's been working on having something to post about. Still, that much will be done and that's great news (and not in the GW-style meaning of that phrase).

So, my hope for August might not be as big of a pipe dream as I thought! Yay!

 NoseGoblin wrote:
Hello all, I am not ready to post an update just yet… Please hang with me while we work through the final stage. I am VERY busy atm. generating box art, reviewing sprue layouts, pre T1 changes, instructions, and on and on. This is normal, there is a crunch phase where there are a lot of items that need to be provided and gone over near the end of each phase.

I was hoping to be able to update early last week but I had my workflow interrupted by a request to provide box art for most of the stage 3 items as WGF has a container leaving soon wants to start shipping as much as they can to the US in that shipment.

I should have an update next week?

All the best!
Mark

Next week would be great, Mark, thanks for checking in