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Is it that important that they be recognizable as women, though? If you see someone in battle dress and they are that size in your field of vision, I doubt you'd be able to, or care, while they're shooting at you.

It is worth noting that most women in combat gear are practically indistinguishable from males.

 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
It is worth noting that most women in combat gear are practically indistinguishable from males.

ive served with women in combat zones, if it wasnt for the fact that I knew better there is really no way to tell, slap on enough gear and we all look the same

Are there any pictures of the Black Widows next to the Stormtroopers? That would easily decide whether or not they're easily recognizable as female.

I like the looks of the Black Widows. There is definitely a difference between them and the males, but the fact that it isn't immediately noticeable is actually a really nice touch. The new weapons look really nice, too. While the guns that came with the Eisenkern were alright, I think these ones are WAY better.

And are they wearing the Kriegsmarine helmets?

Mathieu Raymond wrote:Is it that important that they be recognizable as women, though? If you see someone in battle dress and they are that size in your field of vision, I doubt you'd be able to, or care, while they're shooting at you.

I am sorry, but this is a silly statement. By this same "You are the miniature man on the table top and you are getting shot at/hacked at, etc. would you care?" you can argue that as gamers we shouldn't care about how anything looks visually. You are in a fight with an orc, it is swinging an axe at you, you wouldn't care what it looks like right? Miniature gaming done right relies on a certain aspect of visual appeal.

Maybe these will Black Widows will be shorter than their male counterparts in keeping with the realism, making them distinguishable from other troops. Maybe the weapon profiles will be enough to do the job.

KalashnikovMarine wrote:It is worth noting that most women in combat gear are practically indistinguishable from males.

ironicsilence wrote:

ive served with women in combat zones, if it wasnt for the fact that I knew better there is really no way to tell, slap on enough gear and we all look the same

These are both basically arguments for just tooling a sprue of female heads and calling it good enough, (which I have argued for in the past). I think there is a way to balance the realism of "you can't tell the difference between a male and female in full gear" and the visual aspect of easily identified female troopers on the table, and I don't think Mark has hit the sweet spot yet.

A comparison pic between the regular Eisenkern and a Black Widow would be much appreciated. I can tell their hips are wider, and their legs might be a little shorter.

I feel like if you make women as Mark has people complain that they look too similar. If you make them easily recognizable as women. Which in this scale requires near raging Heroes cheesecake, people complain.

Dakkaites just complain.

I like that the parts are compatible. That is much better long term and Bitz wise then making sure the Black Widows have visible boobies.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/dreamforge-games/something-wicked-this-way-comes-crusader-plastic-m/posts/856191



No idea why BlogSpot is making the grey pics brown/sepia....

 Gallahad wrote:

Mathieu Raymond wrote:Is it that important that they be recognizable as women, though? If you see someone in battle dress and they are that size in your field of vision, I doubt you'd be able to, or care, while they're shooting at you.

I am sorry, but this is a silly statement. By this same "You are the miniature man on the table top and you are getting shot at/hacked at, etc. would you care?" you can argue that as gamers we shouldn't care about how anything looks visually. You are in a fight with an orc, it is swinging an axe at you, you wouldn't care what it looks like right? Miniature gaming done right relies on a certain aspect of visual appeal.

Maybe these will Black Widows will be shorter than their male counterparts in keeping with the realism, making them distinguishable from other troops. Maybe the weapon profiles will be enough to do the job.

KalashnikovMarine wrote:It is worth noting that most women in combat gear are practically indistinguishable from males.

ironicsilence wrote:

ive served with women in combat zones, if it wasnt for the fact that I knew better there is really no way to tell, slap on enough gear and we all look the same

These are both basically arguments for just tooling a sprue of female heads and calling it good enough, (which I have argued for in the past). I think there is a way to balance the realism of "you can't tell the difference between a male and female in full gear" and the visual aspect of easily identified female troopers on the table, and I don't think Mark has hit the sweet spot yet.

A comparison pic between the regular Eisenkern and a Black Widow would be much appreciated. I can tell their hips are wider, and their legs might be a little shorter.

I hear what you're saying, but I haven't heard a solution from you either. Without going cheesecake, what do you propose? As it stands, they have different gear. What more would you suggest? Remember, it's not enough to say "yuck", as adults we have to be constructive.

@ Gallahad: I think you are parsing hairs. Mark also made the4 waist thinner, the hips and buttocks more female, the groin plate is more a flat plate than would be comfortable for the males. Go google pics of women in full combat gear serving in coed units oversees these past 13 yrs, the hair and faces are all that helps tell. seriously, I have, and you do have a hard time, except the shorter ones, but I knew guys who were as short as women, My motorpool had a mechanic who was 5'5" and he got whooped on in Amsterdam

Also, front on, the armor is showing differences as are the thighs. On the previous page you get backside shots and those are NOT male buttock shape.

With helmest, hair showing in back, Like Mark did with his minis design


no helmets, but only the hair and heads let you know for sure, but the gear does a great job of removing any hint of gender from the neck down.

 NoseGoblin wrote:

Spoiler:

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/dreamforge-games/something-wicked-this-way-comes-crusader-plastic-m/posts/856191



No idea why BlogSpot is making the grey pics brown/sepia....

I voted full size. With the comparison picture, there are enough differences in the Black Widows to make them suitably unique compared to their Stormtrooper brethren. That's good enough for me. I don't need them to be cheesecake, or even borderline cheesecake.

As a guy who is only 5'7'', there are plenty of women taller than me. We don't complain that much that our plastic men don,t show the breadth of human heigths. How realistic is that? Some sacrifices have to be made.

Thank you for the serving men who've given their input, too.

Ah i get the complaint not enough breast armor.


You could always re-design the females so they use forcefields instead of armor and because of the heat built up, they have to fight in bikini's

I voted full size personally, I can appreciate the height difference argument, but I am all for compatibility as well

Gah, what a horrible decision to have to make. Compatibility is really nice to have, but the height distinguishes them more.

I voted compatibility wise also, In the end I think it'll help more, especially if you want the anti tank weapons for the guys to use as well without choping arms.

Will this in any way delay the shipment date if DFG decides to make the black widows smaller?

I don't think they've gone to tooling yet?

No, they are at the mould splitting stage, I believe. This is the right time for that survey, but still cutting it close.

I think that shorter with slightly narrower shoulders would be much more visually appealing as well as being more realistic.

I'm happy with them as shown.

I voted to keep them same size as the men. If the Eisenkarn are as elite as they say they are, they wouldn't have separate standards for female troops that were more lax. If anything, they would be more intense, and would have women that would be close in size to the men.

From a modellers standpoint, I wanted cross compatability, because they will look recognizably female if you use the cap and open helmet heads. If Mark exaggerates their form any more, they run the risk of defeating their whole purpose, aka realistic female troops.

Also, the regular stormtroopers are fairly slim as is. If you slim the women down even more, they will look like munchkins compared to most other lines.

I kinda like the shorter look more actully. But I think I might be a minority.

>.>
<.<

I voted keep them as is. As was already pointed out, MEN come in a lot of different heights and frame sizes, but we don't get all bent out of shape about that. The silhouette, the different cut of the armor, those give enough of a "feel" that there's "something different about the third, seventh, and tenth soldier in that line", without taking it to ridiculous "Hey, there's boobs here! And this one's short! With boobs!" levels.

Added to which, the girls have smaller shoulder pads, and although that's a design centered around a different battlefield role for that squad, does give that "smaller across the shoulders" impression when you look at them.

EDIT TO ADD:

I can't wait, by the way, to show my wife the pics of the Widows next to the male Stormtroopers. She'll love the realism of the way they're armored and the small differences.

The fact that both men and women come in a great variety of shapes and sizes should point to choosing the smaller female kit - with it, you can use male heads to represent "stature challenged" males, or you can use the larger male bodies for errr... "stature enabled" females. Just have an 80/20 split between the units or something ; )

Another vote for cross-compatibility here. I don't begrudge those who want a more visually distinct unit, but I think Mark has included enough to separate them without going overboard. That makes being able to use all the parts I have and will be getting far more valuable to me, but of course YMMV.

Isn't it neat when a creator solicits feedback on what his backers want without things getting shamefully negative?

They don't need to be shorter, but they do need to have the proportions right. If you can't tell the difference then you literally have no reason to care either way, but I can.

 Krinsath wrote:
Isn't it neat when a creator solicits feedback on what his backers want without things getting shamefully negative?

This wasn't Mark soliciting feedback, this was me bitching because of what he decided.

 AlexHolker wrote:
They don't need to be shorter, but they do need to have the proportions right. If you can't tell the difference then you literally have no reason to care either way, but I can.

 Krinsath wrote:
Isn't it neat when a creator solicits feedback on what his backers want without things getting shamefully negative?

This wasn't Mark soliciting feedback, this was me bitching because of what he decided.

Which prompted him to seek out if you were an isolated case or the actual consensus. He could have simply categorized you as a whiny git and completely ignored you, but instead he took the valid portions of your feedback and opened it up for people to have their say.

Will it result in a change? Probably not, because I have a feeling you'll see at best an even split and more likely more in favor of the cross-compatibility. However, that's the problem with a democracy, no? The wrong people are always voting.

 Yonan wrote:
The fact that both men and women come in a great variety of shapes and sizes should point to choosing the smaller female kit - with it, you can use male heads to represent "stature challenged" males, or you can use the larger male bodies for errr... "stature enabled" females. Just have an 80/20 split between the units or something ; )

The one problem with that is that the armor and gear IS different, so your "stature challenged" male soldier would be wearing...well, let's just say it. Chick armor.

Not to mention the wrong shaped butt, feminine body proportions (torso to limbs), that subtle hourglassing in the midsection, and either squished twig and berries, or stature isn't the only thing that's small...

Yeah the torso would be shaped wrong body size wise, BUT the gear's the same except for the shoulder pads. I for one will be quite happy to receive my widows when they come in, and would already like to see about getting at least one more box. I think they'll do well backing up my Raging Heroes KST girls when they come in, just in the name of comparison.

Oh! Mark! Any plans for skirmish level Iron Core based on the same mechanic? If not I would be willing to help try and put together a team to do that. Should be relatively simple once we have the core mechanics for IC in hand. I want to take my squad of kitted up Widows on a rampage Rambo (or perhaps G.I. Jane) style across the known universe!