Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Jehan-reznor wrote:

 shasolenzabi wrote:
China actually has been deliberately bottlenecking shipments and using the "If you were based over here it would be better" card.

I agree that Wargames Factory may have caused some delay's, but i wonder if that is the whole truth.

If you're going to try to accuse someone, at least have the decency to lay them out on the table with your supporting evidence. Do you have emails indicating Mark is being slow with responses and/or fixes? Proof that the Chinese government has ordered a slowdown in non-Party Plastics Production (NPPP as known in government circles)? Pictures of containers loaded with DFG sitting in a secret US Customs warehouse alongside the Roswell spacecraft, the gun from the grassy knoll and Defiance Games's entire product line? Scratchings from the lizard people who run the world showing they wanted a shipment first? Anything at all?

I'm just as annoyed as the next person that I don't have these models coming up on years later. I've yet to see anything to indicate this was anything other than a designer and a factory grossly underestimating the amount of work required and their capacity to do so in the allotted timeframe and the factory as a result making it a lower priority to be worked on between other projects (that are also behind schedule). If you've uncovered some new piece of evidence to indicate otherwise by all means bring it forward, but if you haven't then implying there is some sinister agenda at work serves no useful purpose.

 NoseGoblin wrote:

So we'll take that as no new information to update us with at all from the past 4 weeks?

In fairness, it's only been three weeks; that the 20 man Val'kir squad had cleared T1 was dated July 28th. That's not a ton of info, but it IS info. However, it agree in the main that it seems very quiet. However, I'm still willing to entertain the idea that Mark is asking every day about progress and getting nothing. I sincerely doubt he wishes to deal with this sort of nonsense any more than we do.

 NoseGoblin wrote:

I think Mark is about that level of frustration with the delays.

As for the shipping out of China delays, new mail regs are to blame it seems

http://www.ecommercebytes.com/cab/abn/y14/m05/i15/s01

And ocean shipping seems to be a combo punch, some do's and don'ts of cargo by sea if the item can't be in the shipment on time delays(obvious) add weather and congested ports and mega slow down.

http://www.wikihow.com/Ensure-Punctual-Ocean-Delivery-from-China-to-Canada

This KS used to be a poster child (at least for those following peripherally like me) for how to do things right but the fact that it is still dragging on all these years later (for whatever reasons) is tarnishing that image.

The jpeg is hilarious, Mark

Yeah, people are getting tired of waiting, of course, but please don't just toss accusations around. I'm sure no one wants it finished more than Mark... but what can he do, really?

The delay is a bummer, no question, and I wish WGF could fastrack completion. But then again, I'm waiting on several projects from them (Tablescapes is one of them).

In the end, all this really means for me is that I'm unlikely to Kickstarter something that is relying on Wargames Factory's time estimates. But that doesn't make me think any less of the creators- it's just that WGF has been colossally off on their estimates. It's unforgivable, really, but I know they gave Dreamforge a huge discount... it just also seems that that means they are not completing it as quickly as they should. Just remember that Kingdom Death, Tablescapes, etc are all late and waiting on WGF... they just took on a ton of work and while they're molding wizards, they need to be more realistic with time estimates in the future.

 RiTides wrote:

In the end, all this really means for me is that I'm unlikely to Kickstarter something that is relying on Wargames Factory's time estimates.

Is it really WGF's time estimates to blame? WGF is a small part of a huge plastics manufacturing concern (medical grade plastics and such) - one would think that they would know what they're doing. If I'm a customer and I say, hey I give you this 3d file, how long will it take, and they say X weeks, but then my 3d file needs about a dozen revisions and back and forth between the company, that certainly adds Y months to the equation.

 judgedoug wrote:

 RiTides wrote:

In the end, all this really means for me is that I'm unlikely to Kickstarter something that is relying on Wargames Factory's time estimates.

Is it really WGF's time estimates to blame? WGF is a small part of a huge plastics manufacturing concern (medical grade plastics and such) - one would think that they would know what they're doing. If I'm a customer and I say, hey I give you this 3d file, how long will it take, and they say X weeks, but then my 3d file needs about a dozen revisions and back and forth between the company, that certainly adds Y months to the equation.

Mark even admitted (about 50 pages ago) that some of the delays were due to him tweaking files until they were just right. This is not a bad thing necessarily just a reason for delays that has nothing to do with WGF.

I think the truth lies somewhere in-between. WGF's engineers are very good at what they do, but they're engineers without context for what is and isn't a good idea for this specific application. This leads to sprues being laid out in way that would be unsatisfactory for gamers like a gate being directly in the middle of the forehead of a model or somewhere equally conspicuous. Mark has to keep an eye out for such things and go back with "this, this and this won't work" which then requires the engineers to come back with "how about this?" and so on down the road. Adding in the massive time zone differences and it stretches the work out tremendously.

Did WGF over-promise? Probably, but they did it out of just as much ignorance as the creators did when they thought these things could be done without grasping the complete process on how the sausage was made. Would everyone involved like a do-over? I'm sure most would take it, but hindsight is always 20/20. I don't think any party here is TRYING to string things along, because there's no benefit whatsoever to doing so. It's just taking as long as it's going to take at this point, and as much as that sucks and as much I wish it wasn't so, that's how it is. Live and learn and don't repeat the same mistakes the next time around is all anyone (backers included) can really do at this point.

 Krinsath wrote:
I think the truth lies somewhere in-between. WGF's engineers are very good at what they do, but they're engineers without context for what is and isn't a good idea for this specific application. This leads to sprues being laid out in way that would be unsatisfactory for gamers like a gate being directly in the middle of the forehead of a model or somewhere equally conspicuous.

Haven't they been laying out wargaming sprues for like 7 years now? By my count they've released 40 plastic kits under their own brand, not including Dreamforge/Kingdom Death/Scarab Minis/Leviathans/etc


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I think the most reasonable explanation is that the KS launched with a reasonable delivery date for the Leviathan, but then a bajillion new things got funded. If only the Leviathan had been funded, it would have been delivered roughly on time and that's about it, hah.

 judgedoug wrote:

 Krinsath wrote:
I think the truth lies somewhere in-between. WGF's engineers are very good at what they do, but they're engineers without context for what is and isn't a good idea for this specific application. This leads to sprues being laid out in way that would be unsatisfactory for gamers like a gate being directly in the middle of the forehead of a model or somewhere equally conspicuous.

Haven't they been laying out wargaming sprues for like 7 years now? By my count they've released 40 plastic kits under their own brand, not including Dreadforge/Kingdom Death/Scarab Minis/Leviathans/etc

They have, but the spots that are bad ideas on one model may not be a bad idea on another. You also have to factor in what simply isn't possible, and the designs having to be entirely re-worked to get the same look in a different fashion.

As an example of engineering winning over design, I'll point you to the leviathan and a few of the "disc"-type parts there that have one of the most annoying attachment points around (the ones that are "below" the plane of the part and annoyingly thick, I believe part of the shoulder joints). That's one of those "you do it this way or you don't get it" points I'm sure, because holy crap is that an annoying part to separate/clean and Mark certainly wouldn't have missed that. If the options are "really thick attachment" or "not at all", the choice is obvious. However, how many back-and-forths did it take before they felt they had exhausted the reasonable options and went with that? That's a few part out of a couple hundred on that one kit.

Multiply that sort of thing out by the number of sprues and number of kits and it becomes starker. Now, they could just throw it all together and any design aspects be damned and they're probably be done much sooner. However, we'd have a poorer product for it.

I think all of this is why Mark said he's not planning on any big Kickstarters in the near future and just focusing on releaseing units one-at-a-time through the normal process. I can't recall exactly but I think he mentioned maybe small, one-unit kickstarters but that might be completely someone else.

Old age=bad memory.

Well there have certainly been instances where some of the Kingdom Death stuff has had to be revised for things like mould gates onto faces etc

so even if some of their engineers know not to do so, others do not (and if they are recruiting the staff numbers will be growing so giving new folk to train)

It may also make a difference in terms of price, cut up a mini the optimal way the engineers suggest and it will fit on the smallest possible sprue minimising cost/cut time

but the project creator may decide that things need to be different to give the best build (or not if they are on a tight budget) meaning back and forward, perhaps a slightly bigger frame (which lets Adam at KD add more extra's too), more cut time & cost

Guys, I get it…. You are tired of a never ending wait, you are tired of shifting delivery estimates, and you are frustrated that this whole process has dragged on farther than is reasonable for most sane people.

I am tired and frustrated, WGF is tired and frustrated, we ALL want this project done and behind us so we can move forward.

This has all been discussed at length at different times with differing levels of detail. Rather than making you dig through all the updates and pages in this forum, I thought I would repost the most poignant in regards to the question at hand…


Looking for fault or blame:

“If you want to be upset with anyone, it should be me, the Kickstarter was run by me the products are mine and the agreement was between you and me.”

The process:

The process is not always A-B-C, it is more often A-B to B1 to B2 to C with time sucking steps randomly falling into the process based on what needs to be done.

“This process is more often a negotiation than “Here are my files, make them”.

The artist provides the models, WGF works on the mold split and sends me back sample files to review and approve, and sometimes I am not happy with the way the model needed to be modified to make it work in hard tooling. I make suggestions and we take another run at it. We split the model up differently or separate a component from the mesh and see if they can get a model to work in hard tooling and still meet my requirements.

Sometimes we cannot, and I need to compromise, sometimes we can, with a simple change it all works out. The negotiation process between the engineers and the client is something that happens with every kit, we can take as many as three runs at a single model before we have exhausted the options.”

At the end of the day, I know what you want, you want your long overdue kits, and you want quality.

You can be assured I have been working to supply both as fast as possible. At no time have I kept WGF waiting on files, the process is what it is, and there is nothing I can do to change that. The only shortcut that could have been taken was to sacrifice quality.

What the hell does that mean? Sacrifice quality? It means that often when I get a model back from mold split it is unacceptable, hard line details (like the center leg crease on the heavy troopers or other details) have been obviously distorted, made in a way that is unacceptable for the final model because they tried to keep the component as a single part. We can resolve these issues by further splitting the components. I do this before hand where I know there will be issues. There are many times neither I nor the mold team truly know what it will look like until it has made a run through mold split.

When it comes to the decision of letting something slide that I know can be fixed…I will not do that, so rage at me, call me a lair, do what you need to do to vent off some frustration, I can empathize with you 1000%.

I will continue to work on this project until you have the models in hand and they are the best I can make them.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Here are some images that may help you understand what gets rejected and why.

The WGF mold split team did everything correctly, they attempted to keep the part count to a minimum and provide the best splits possible based on the geometry. They send me the models after they have been run through the process and we discuss any issues and try to find solutions.

You can see from the arms that we have distorted the joint between the upper and lower arms, taking them out of round and obliteration the details that make the component look like a power armor joint section



Here are the legs, as two part models… you can see the center hard crease gets curved in and it is not the same left to right. The crotch section gets drawn back into the legs with the direction of pull. These we also rejected, we ended up splitting out the crotch section.





Had I simply approved items like these, we would be done, but would you be happy with your model? I would not… I have to assume you would not. None of these issues are in the kit, the models in the kit match the original art because I refused to compromise the quality of your kits.

 agnosto wrote:
I think all of this is why Mark said he's not planning on any big Kickstarters in the near future and just focusing on releaseing units one-at-a-time through the normal process. I can't recall exactly but I think he mentioned maybe small, one-unit kickstarters but that might be completely someone else.

Old age=bad memory.

Nah he said he wouldn't do it unit by unit (one of my preference) but only for the entire line. But then I have not the best memory either

overtyrant wrote:

 agnosto wrote:
I think all of this is why Mark said he's not planning on any big Kickstarters in the near future and just focusing on releaseing units one-at-a-time through the normal process. I can't recall exactly but I think he mentioned maybe small, one-unit kickstarters but that might be completely someone else.

Old age=bad memory.

Nah he said he wouldn't do it unit by unit (one of my preference) but only for the entire line. But then I have not the best memory either

I said, I would not do it again unless everything was done and ready to ship. KS was not an ideal platform for this manufacturing process, I will release straight to retail and (perhaps) run a KS for game release with the kits that have been created.

Thanks for the boot to the pants reminder Mark.

Hey, quality like we got from the stormtooper kists is preferable to some cheezy rush with massive flaws any day of the week. I can wait.

hey, Mark...
hang in there, man...
you are making the most beautiful sci-fi kits for this scale that i have ever seen...
one day i hope to find an excuse to paint a few of them...

cheers
jah

I, for one, am thrilled with the delays. If all the kits had already been released all the pressure would be on me to get the rules finished...

R.

I was baiting you for a more informing post, not a pic that you are losing it

 Mathieu Raymond wrote:
Well from what we can see on the Wyrd release thread, they have been cranking out Malifaux Wave 2, that's about, what 16 sprues right there?

WGF has been massively backed up due to Wyrd and another client, until that's cleared out they've stopped taking on any new work and it appears it's also impacted delivery time on a lot of people that are already in the Que. I've been trying for like a year just to get a quote with them for my own stuff and they've been so full to the gills they aren't even available to provide quotes and aren't returning basic inquiry emails.

WGF is not the only factory that's bogged down right now, there's been a huge explosion in the number of companies offering HPS and PVC products and as a result it's generating a lot of backlogs on KS projects and even general production items.

The wait time sucks but Mark does deliver with really high quality stuff and I'd rather wait then have junky stuff.

 Krinsath wrote:

 Jehan-reznor wrote:

 shasolenzabi wrote:
China actually has been deliberately bottlenecking shipments and using the "If you were based over here it would be better" card.

I agree that Wargames Factory may have caused some delay's, but i wonder if that is the whole truth.

If you're going to try to accuse someone, at least have the decency to lay them out on the table with your supporting evidence. Do you have emails indicating Mark is being slow with responses and/or fixes? Proof that the Chinese government has ordered a slowdown in non-Party Plastics Production (NPPP as known in government circles)? Pictures of containers loaded with DFG sitting in a secret US Customs warehouse alongside the Roswell spacecraft, the gun from the grassy knoll and Defiance Games's entire product line? Scratchings from the lizard people who run the world showing they wanted a shipment first? Anything at all?

I'm just as annoyed as the next person that I don't have these models coming up on years later. I've yet to see anything to indicate this was anything other than a designer and a factory grossly underestimating the amount of work required and their capacity to do so in the allotted timeframe and the factory as a result making it a lower priority to be worked on between other projects (that are also behind schedule). If you've uncovered some new piece of evidence to indicate otherwise by all means bring it forward, but if you haven't then implying there is some sinister agenda at work serves no useful purpose.

Where did i accuse anyone, i only said i wonder, and then mark delivered with a nice long answer. I have no problems with delays, but as i posted on the his blog before, post some small updates now and then.

We are no board-members but giving us some snippets now and then on the progress or delays will keep the Mob from becoming restless and violent.

 Jehan-reznor wrote:

Where did i accuse anyone, i only said i wonder, and then mark delivered with a nice long answer. I have no problems with delays, but as i posted on the his blog before, post some small updates now and then.

We are no board-members but giving us some snippets now and then on the progress or delays will keep the Mob from becoming restless and violent.

It could simply be down to language, however if you're trying to communicate ideas you want to make sure your language is clear.

Saying "I wonder" in this context is not a harmless idle thought like "I wonder what bacon-stuffed bacon would taste like." Here you have said you wonder (i.e. - "have a desire to know") if that's the whole truth. Whether you intend to or not, you have just stated that you are beginning to think that there is more information out there. Consequently, if such information existed and Mark didn't share it, he'd be lying to us by omission. That's the chain of events your statement goes down, and why it reads to me as a thinly-veiled accusation; the implication was that Mark wasn't telling us something.

Given that a KS project's foundation is the trust between the creator and the backers, using any statements in a public forum that could weaken relationship without some sort of factual backing is a poor choice, IMO. To do it simply to "bait" the project creator into doing something also reads as a touch antagonistic; "bait" is another word loaded with negative context that you may not have meant to use.

That Mark's reply was mainly made up of things he's already said to us before kind of goes to show that if there is information that's not been shared with us, it's of typical boring day-to-day tedium that occurs in any project great or small. If we already have people not reading the big facts, why would we want the little ones to muddy the waters even further? About the only "new" thing was the image of what exactly goes wrong with the design of the sprues which, while informative, still changes nothing about our situation.

I do appreciate that Mark took the time to collate all the answers for people though. I don't wonder if I'm being told the whole truth; I only wonder what I'm going to do when these things finally get made and I have a mountain of plastic to sift through. Unfortunately, it does appear that I have quite a bit more time to figure that out.

 Krinsath wrote:
In fairness, it's only been three weeks; that the 20 man Val'kir squad had cleared T1 was dated July 28th. That's not a ton of info, but it IS info. However, it agree in the main that it seems very quiet. However, I'm still willing to entertain the idea that Mark is asking every day about progress and getting nothing. I sincerely doubt he wishes to deal with this sort of nonsense any more than we do.

Ah, you're right. My miscalculation.

Regardless, I'd like to see some updates. I'm able to let it go for 2-3 weeks, but then I start getting edgy and snarky again. While Mark is defending WGF, just like Justin at SWM, he's not exactly in a position to publicly criticise them or throw them under the bus, so I'll be as fethed off at WGF as I like.

*White knight mode engaged!!*

The delays suck but the quality makes up for it. Keep at it Mark, DFG minis is best minis!

*White knight mode disengaged!!*

Meh.

 paulson games wrote:

 Mathieu Raymond wrote:
Well from what we can see on the Wyrd release thread, they have been cranking out Malifaux Wave 2, that's about, what 16 sprues right there?

WGF has been massively backed up due to Wyrd and another client, until that's cleared out they've stopped taking on any new work and it appears it's also impacted delivery time on a lot of people that are already in the Que. I've been trying for like a year just to get a quote with them for my own stuff and they've been so full to the gills they aren't even available to provide quotes and aren't returning basic inquiry emails.

WGF is not the only factory that's bogged down right now, there's been a huge explosion in the number of companies offering HPS and PVC products and as a result it's generating a lot of backlogs on KS projects and even general production items.

The wait time sucks but Mark does deliver with really high quality stuff and I'd rather wait then have junky stuff.

You've just said that WGF is actually run by descendants of the Great Old Ones. Good job! "to the gills" gave me a distinct Horror at Innsmouth feeling. It would explain the consiracy theories.

Owning a few of your resin kits, do you think they would benefit that much from plastic production? Aside from the pressure it would take off your shoulders? After having received some Kingdom Death, I can honestly say you and them are neck to neck quality wise, with all other resin I have received being miles below. (or 1.6*kilometers below)

 Azazelx wrote:

Regardless, I'd like to see some updates. I'm able to let it go for 2-3 weeks, but then I start getting edgy and snarky again. While Mark is defending WGF, just like Justin at SWM, he's not exactly in a position to publicly criticise them or throw them under the bus, so I'll be as fethed off at WGF as I like.

generally if you start trash talking your manufacturer while they are working on your product things end poorly for you

Agreed, and entirely my point. Well, half of my point, anyway.

It was in reference to Mark's post being filled with "if you want to be angry at anyone, be angry at me, not WGF"