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 Neorealist wrote:

So when you declare a target with your boltgun, you can target the Sarge in the unit? If a target can be a model after all...

Irrelevent, no one is discussing a bolt gun and how they target.

It's not irrelevant. You're trying to say that a template weapon can target models. I'm trying to demonstrate that isn't true.

You can however place a template over top of a sargeant. That said, the controlling player may very well not choose to place the wound on said sargeant, so that has little functional difference other than determining the number of models hit in the unit.

Well, the controlling player can't actually choose where the wound goes (barring LOS). I think you should re-read the shooting section of the rules to re-familiarize yourself with them.

So wait, you are now claiming that despite the rules saying otherwise, the unit is NOT the target?

The Neural Shredder is still a weapon that you shoot, meaning you must delcare a TARGET

TARGET is defined as a UNIT

Therefore, using the wonder power known as substitution, means you are wounding against the UNITS leadership

Find a rule showing how you determine the UNITS leadership. Remember: you have only shown that templatesd work out how many models have been hit by what is under, you have made another fallacy in assuming that this somehow changes the target to be those models. Which it doesnt.

rigeld2 wrote:Well, the controlling player can't actually choose where the wound goes (barring LOS). I think you should re-read the shooting section of the rules to re-familiarize yourself with them.

I don't believe that is necessary, and further i believe you probably should stop offering advice on what you think i need to do. That said, the 'controlling player' in my statement above refers to the controller of the unit, not the controller of the template. I could have made that more clear, this is true.

 Neorealist wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:Well, the controlling player can't actually choose where the wound goes (barring LOS). I think you should re-read the shooting section of the rules to re-familiarize yourself with them.

I don't believe that is necessary, and further i believe you probably should stop offering advice on what you think i need to do. That said, the 'controlling player' in my statement above refers to the controller of the unit, not the controller of the template. I could have made that more clear, this is true.

And you'd still be wrong as the controlling player (of the unit) can never choose where a wound is allocated/goes barring LOS.

edit: And you're still ignoring the fact that to shoot a weapon you must select a unit as a target, not individual models.

null wrote:So wait, you are now claiming that despite the rules saying otherwise, the unit is NOT the target?

The Neural Shredder is still a weapon that you shoot, meaning you must delcare a TARGET

TARGET is defined as a UNIT

Therefore, using the wonder power known as substitution, means you are wounding against the UNITS leadership

Find a rule showing how you determine the UNITS leadership. Remember: you have only shown that templatesd work out how many models have been hit by what is under, you have made another fallacy in assuming that this somehow changes the target to be those models. Which it doesnt.

1) The target is the unit, a group of models.
2) The models hit in that unit are the ones under the template, as per the template rules.
3) Determining what happens to a target that has been hit by an attack is done via the 'Roll to Wound' (and latter) sections of the main book.

Following from step 1 to step 3, nowhere have a I violated a single precedural rule.
As for how you determine the leadership you must roll against? You refer to the statistics of the models in the unit, as that is the only location where such can be found. There is no 'majority leadership' statistic (as defined by a rule) for the unit as a whole and you are not given permission to modify the 'majority toughness' rule to accomodate what is so obviously your preference in this regard.

So if I have a unit with mixed toughness (say 4 models at T4 and 6 models at T3) and a flamer is fired at them only covering the T4 models I get to to use their Toughness instead of majority? Sweet.

Happyjew wrote:So if I have a unit with mixed toughness (say 4 models at T4 and 6 models at T3) and a flamer is fired at them only covering the T4 models I get to to use their Toughness instead of majority? Sweet.

I'd suggest that sarcasm isn't appropriate to this discussion?

Given that normal flamers wound vs toughness, you would of course use the majority toughness of the unit. To suggest otherwise is disingenuous at best.

The statistics of the individual models don't help you wound the unit itself which, as you stated, is a group of models, not a singular model. If you refer to the leadership of the individual models and roll for them seperately then you aren't wounding a group of models, you are wounding a singular model, which where you start violating the rules.

Show us the rule that allows you to substitute rolling against single models for rolling against a group of them.

Neo - so, yet again, you are claiming that the template rules have changed the target?

The target is the unit. Find a rule allowing you to wound against the target units leadership. Not the models, as they are not the target, the TARGET is singular, not plural.

Rules this time. From the 6th edition BRB please.

 Avatar 720 wrote:
The statistics of the individual models don't help you wound the unit itself which, as you stated, is a group of models, not a singular model. If you refer to the leadership of the individual models and roll for them seperately then you aren't wounding a group of models, you are wounding a singular model, which where you start violating the rules..

Not quite. I've bolded the part where you went astray with your reasoning. By rolling against the leadership statistics present on each of the models hit by the template, you are still wounding the unit as a whole by following the 'Roll to Wound' section of the main book to the letter, not wounding each model individually.

The unit is described as a group of models, ergo by wounding one, solitary model, you cannot possibly be wounding the unit.

I'm not advocating not using majority toughness but under templates in my BRB it says "Any models fully or partially under the template are hit." Via GW wording it does look like those models specifically are hit not the unit but then you are instructed to allocate as normal......

Edit: Templates also say the target unit though as well.

nosferatu wrote:The target is the unit. Find a rule allowing you to wound against the target units leadership. Not the models, as they are not the target, the TARGET is singular, not plural.

Please refer to my prior post where i indicated that for the purpose of the 6th edition rules, the 'unit' (therefore the target) and the 'models it is comprised of' are synonymous in game terms. The relevent rule is quoted there, so I'm not going to repeat myself when it's easy enough for you to just scroll back in this thread a bit.

Avatar wrote:The unit is described as a group of models, ergo by wounding one, solitary model, you cannot possibly be wounding the unit.

Actually you can, as that is exactly what happens.

EDIT 2: Actually, Nos has phrased it well enough.

The Target is a singular object; Unit. You are told to wound the target, the unit, and not the plurality of models.

Please provide a rule allowing you to target individual models. Actual rules.

nosferatu wrote: Please provide a rule allowing you to target individual models. Actual rules.

Who said anything about 'targetting' individual models? I'm saying you 'wound' (by rolling against their leadership) the unit based on the models under the template which are hit.

Except that isnt wounding the unit; the models hit by the template are not the target, they just tell you how many hits you have achieved.

So, again, how do you determine the Units leadership, as that is the Target?

You can give up any time you like, and admit that using the majority toughness rules makes the most sense, and was what was FAQ'd in previous editions.

Nope.

The 'Roll to Wound' section tells you how to deal with the target models that were hit. I'll quote it for you: "...compare the weapon's Strength characteristic with the target's Toughness characteristic using the To Wound chart..."

The Neural Shedder tells us"...hits are resolved against the target's Leadership, rather than its Toughness...

Given that the target of the shot is the unit, and the unit is the same thing as the models it is composed of, you have to resolve against the leadership of the models.

With me so far? Ok then, what is the Leadership (in this context) of the models you ask? A Characteristic Test.

How do we make characteristic tests? "...Roll a D6 and compare the result to the relevant characteristic in the model's profile..."

which models is the above referring to? "...A unit takes a hit for each model that is fully, or even partially underneath the template..."

tl;dr
you hit models, those models take characteristic tests against their leadership statistics based on the 'To Wound' chart, and the wounds are then pooled and distributed in accordance with the rules for such.

Any other questions?

 Neorealist wrote:
With me so far? Ok then, what is the Leadership (in this context) of the models you ask? A Characteristic Test.

Nope. That's not correct. Rolling to Wound is not a Toughness test either.

the normal 'To Wound' rule: "...compare the weapon's Strength characteristic with the target's Toughness characteristic using the To Wound chart..."

If you resolve the above with the word 'leadership' instead of 'toughness' , what do you have?

 Neorealist wrote:
the normal 'To Wound' rule: "...compare the weapon's Strength characteristic with the target's Toughness characteristic using the To Wound chart..."

If you resolve the above with the word 'leadership' instead of 'toughness' , what do you have?

Not a characteristic test as you asserted. Since that's defined as rolling a d6 under the given characteristic.

And if you resolve the above with the word Leadership instead of Toughness you need to use the target's Leadership - which is not individual models, it's the unit as a whole.

The targets' leadership is comprised of the models' leaderships. (that is the only location that you can find that statistic and yet again there is no rule telling us to use the majority leadership of the unit)

 Neorealist wrote:
The targets' leadership is comprised of the models' leaderships. (that is the only location that you can find that statistic and yet again there is no rule telling us to use the majority leadership of the unit)

Comprised of? So you add up all the Leaderships?

If all the Leaderships in the unit are the same, you'd wound on that number. If they're mixed your only choices are a) the unit is impossible to wound with this weapon or b) majority Leadership because that is the unit's Leadership. I'll let you pick.

So, perusing the rulebook for other similar weapons/abilities and ran across something that might throw a monkey wrench in there for Neo...The "Psychic Shriek" telepathy power is a shooting attack of which you roll 3d6 and subtract the targets leadership to determine how many wounds are caused. So how would you determine the targets leadership in this instance if you had a LD7 unit with a LD10 character leading them?

rigeld2 wrote:Comprised of? So you add up all the Leaderships?

I'm sorry, you really do know better than this. I'm not going to dignify that by even trying to formulate a response.

rigeld2 wrote:If all the Leaderships in the unit are the same, you'd wound on that number. If they're mixed your only choices are a) the unit is impossible to wound with this weapon or b) majority Leadership because that is the unit's Leadership. I'll let you pick.

how about C) You wound each model under the template at their own leadership score?

 Neorealist wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:If all the Leaderships in the unit are the same, you'd wound on that number. If they're mixed your only choices are a) the unit is impossible to wound with this weapon or b) majority Leadership because that is the unit's Leadership. I'll let you pick.

how about C) You wound each model under the template at their own leadership score?

C has no basis in any rules whatsoever.
How can you roll to wound a unit (as required - because the unit was the target not individual models) using the characteristics of individual models?

Kevin949 wrote:So, perusing the rulebook for other similar weapons/abilities and ran across something that might throw a monkey wrench in there for Neo...The "Psychic Shriek" telepathy power is a shooting attack of which you roll 3d6 and subtract the targets leadership to determine how many wounds are caused. So how would you determine the targets leadership in this instance if you had a LD7 unit with a LD10 character leading them?

Well if that is considered a leadership test, we are told to always use the highest leadership in the unit on an individual model basis. If you are just asked to check the units leadership score straight up however, then i have no idea how you'd determine that in accordance with an actual rule.

rigeld2 wrote: How can you roll to wound a unit (as required - because the unit was the target not individual models) using the characteristics of individual models?

it's simple really: As i've already mentioned you just follow the normal procedure starting with 'Roll to Wound' and work your way down the page. Resolving hits against various models does not in any way mean you are specifically targetting those models, just that they are the ones the template has been placed on top of.

 Neorealist wrote:

rigeld2 wrote: How can you roll to wound a unit (as required - because the unit was the target not individual models) using the characteristics of individual models?

it's simple really: As i've already mentioned you just follow the normal procedure starting with 'Roll to Wound' and work your way down the page. Resolving hits against various models does not in any way mean you are specifically targetting those models, just that they are the ones the template has been placed on top of.

As you've said before.
Remembering that the target is the unit, how do you determine the target's Leadership value as you're required to do?

By resolving against the leadership of each of the models underneath the template; as per the 'Roll to Wound' section as modified by the Neural Shredders' special rule.

There is no way to determine (currently within the rules) the leadership statistic of a entire unit that i am aware of. Fortunately you do not have to do so.

 Neorealist wrote:

Kevin949 wrote:So, perusing the rulebook for other similar weapons/abilities and ran across something that might throw a monkey wrench in there for Neo...The "Psychic Shriek" telepathy power is a shooting attack of which you roll 3d6 and subtract the targets leadership to determine how many wounds are caused. So how would you determine the targets leadership in this instance if you had a LD7 unit with a LD10 character leading them?

Well if that is considered a leadership test, we are told to always use the highest leadership in the unit on an individual model basis. If you are just asked to check the units leadership score straight up however, then i have no idea how you'd determine that in accordance with an actual rule.

rigeld2 wrote: How can you roll to wound a unit (as required - because the unit was the target not individual models) using the characteristics of individual models?

it's simple really: As i've already mentioned you just follow the normal procedure starting with 'Roll to Wound' and work your way down the page. Resolving hits against various models does not in any way mean you are specifically targetting those models, just that they are the ones the template has been placed on top of.

It is not a leadership test. For reference, it is the Primaris power listed in BRB pg 423.

What I am getting at here is that the only way to resolve this is majority leadership, just like majority toughness.

What you're referencing is claiming that you can precision shoot with weapons that are never allowed to precision shoot (regardless to who is firing them).

Your claims would also mean that an Abyssal Staff from the necron codex would operate the same way as the neural shredder.