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 Exergy wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 labmouse42 wrote:
That limits the invuln save to only one turn for Ghaz -- which tips the balance into Abbadons favor.

Why would Ghaz not just wait until he's in combat with Abaddon to Waaagh!?

cant he only waaaagh in his turn?

Yea but he can do it once he's already locked in the duel, surelly its a bit of a stretch for abby to one turn gib him.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also we should be doing it in a vacuum, so run the math once with Ghaz getting the waaagh on 1st turn then once with it 2nd turn.

he only has a 5++ so he could end up getting gibbed in one turn. If not, he likely will have taken enough damage that even with his 2++ he will still go down.

Of course, if you charge and challenge the first turn without declaring WAAGH, then Abaddon can accept your challenge directly and has a whole player turn to strike against your normal 5++

Reading this SW dex I borrowed off a mate, I reckon a properly loaded Lone Wolf could give him a run for his money.

Lone wolves are pretty awesome.
Your thinking of a terminator with SS?

The biggest concern I see is the lack of wounds. The lone wolf only has 2.
Build one up and we can test it out.

 labmouse42 wrote:
Lone wolves are pretty awesome.
Your thinking of a terminator with SS?

The biggest concern I see is the lack of wounds. The lone wolf only has 2.
Build one up and we can test it out.

beastslayer works on abby right?

ws 5 (still hitting on 4's though), reroll to hit, with hammer, would wound on 2's. has eternal warrior, FNP (which will work vs the AP2 daemon blade abby would have to use I'm assuming? (so 16% of hitting himself each round too)

Pretty good unit for 85 points to face down a 265 point model

3 of them is only 255 points. Would it be fair to have 3 on 1? or one after the other vs abby?



Edit: Woops, typo! fixed now.

 sudojoe wrote:


ws 5 (still hitting on 5's though)

DAFUQ? WS5 never hits on 5+, enemy models cannot be WS11

I was thinking of :

Termie Armour
Storm Shield
Thunder Hammer
2x Fenrisian Wolves

That Lone Wolf won't make it, a fully tooled out BT Chaplain won't, and he's got one more wound and more attacks.

Also, you can Waaagh! any time you like.

 IHateNids wrote:
I was thinking of :

Termie Armour
Storm Shield
Thunder Hammer
2x Fenrisian Wolves

The two wolves would be great for ducking the first 2 wounding hits.

I know he's not an IC, but Arjac holds his own in combat fairly well, and if you include the models shooting eachother first, Arjac has the possibility of reducing Abby to I1 before combat even begins. That coupled with the fact that he rerolls all failed to hits in close combat as well as always hitting on a 3+ is very nice, plus 5 attacks on the charge or counter charge, and 3 the rest is great.

Also, Lukas the Trickster can one shot Abby by suicide bombing, but that really doesn't count as winning unless you're taking down a titan like that!

As far as straight up fluffy IC's go, Abaddon is the best in the game bar none. I think it's fairly awesome from a fluff perspective that the right-hand man and protege of the Emperor's treacherous son Horus stands tall as the uncontested best IC in the 41st Millennium. I've always been a fan of the villains and anti-heroes in everything though, so i'm also a massive Ghazghul fanboy, who happens to be the next best thing in an IC vs IC challenge.

With that said though, he's far from the best use of 265 points in an overall challenge scenario when you include Monstrous Creatures like ye olde Swarmlord and other Characters like Crowe, who can just suicide challenge and remove him from play for 150 points. That's not what this thread about though...

Long may Abaddon hold the title of scariest IC to challenge!

Shock attack gun mig mek

 cheapbuster wrote:
Shock attack gun mig mek

Or 4 in a double FOC, you'll quadruple your odds of getting double 6

So just for fun I simulated a few duels between Abaddon and this guy (we'll call him High Chaplain Enceladus for the sake of fluffiness):

Black Templar Master of Sanctity (Accept Any Challenge vow taken)

Artificer Armour
Space Marine Bike
Master-Crafted Thunder Hammer
Storm Shield
Terminator Honours

Brings him in at 230 points and he's perfectly legal unless I'm mistaken?

I'll go for best of 5 and roll them both off to see who gets the charge bonus each fight.

First duel (roll off won by Enceladus 4 to 2):

Round 1 - Abaddon chooses to attack with Drach'nyen and rolls a 4 for Daemon weapon to go up to 8 attacks. He rolls to hit on 3+, rolls 5 hits. Rolls to wound and causes 3 wounds. Enceladus fails 1 invuln and saves 2.
Enceladus hits back with his 6 attacks at 4+, hits 3, wounds all 3. Abaddon fails 2 invulns and saves 1. Both down to 2 wounds.
Round 2 - Abaddon chooses to attack with Drach'nyen but rolls a 1 for Daemon weapon, wounding himself and failing his invuln. He attacks 4 times, hits 1 at 5+, wounds 1. Enceladus saves the invuln.
Enceladus hits back with 4 attacks at 3+, hits 2, wounds 2, Abaddon fails both invulns and dies.

Second duel (roll off won by Abaddon 5 to 4):

Round 1 - Abaddon chooses to attack with Drach'nyen and rolls a 1, wounding himself but making his invuln. He attacks 5 times, 2 hits at 5+, 1 wound. Enceladus saves the invuln.
Enceladus attacks back 4 times at 3+, 3 hits, 3 wounds. Abaddon fails 2 invulns and is down to 2 wounds.
Round 2 - Abaddon chooses to attack with Drach'nyen, again shockingly rolling a 1 but failing his invuln. He attacks 4 times at 5+, misses all 4.
Enceladus attacks back 4 times at 3+, 4 hits, 4 wounds. Abaddon makes 3 invulns but fails one and dies.

Third duel (Abaddon wins the roll off 6 to 4):

Round 1 - Abaddon chooses to attack with Drach'nyen and rolls a 3, attacking 8 times at 3+, 6 hits, 3 wounds. Enceladus saves 2 and fails 1 invuln.
Enceladus attacks back 4 times, 2 hits, 1 wound. Abaddon makes the invuln, remains at 4 wounds and Enceladus at 2.
Round 2 - Abaddon chooses to attack with Drach'nyen and rolls a 5, attacking 9 times at 3+, 8 hits, 5 wounds. Enceladus saves 4 and fails 1 invuln.
Enceladus attacks back 4 times, 1 hit, 1 wound. Abaddon fails his save and is down to 3 wounds with Enceladus at 1.
Round 3 - Abaddon chooses to attack with Drach'nyen and rolls a 4, attacking 8 times, 4 hits, 2 wounds. Enceladus saves both invulns.
Enceladus attacks back 4 times, 2 hits, 2 wounds. Abaddon saves both invulns. Stalemate.
Round 4 - Abaddon chooses to attack with Drach'nyen and rolls a 2, attacking 6 times, 3 hits, 1 wound. Enceladus fails his invuln and dies. The Gods reward Abaddon for his triumph and he rolls a 43 on the Boon chart (Venomous).

Forth duel (Enceladus wins the roll off 3 to 1):

Round 1 - Abaddon chooses to attack with Drach'nyen and rolls a 5, attacking 9 times, 6 hits, 3 wounds. Enceladus saves 2 and fails 1 invuln.
Enceladus attacks back with 6 attacks, hits 3, wounds 3. Abaddon saves 1 and fails 2 invulns. Abaddon is down to 2 wounds, as is Enceladus.
Round 2 - Abaddon chooses to attack with Drach'nyen and rolls a 6, attacking 10 times (I'm actually terrified), 5 hits, 5 wounds. Enceladus saves 2 and fails 3 and dies. The Gods reward Abaddon for his triumph and he rolls a 64 on the Boon chart. He re-rolls for a 66 and menacingly transforms into a Daemon Prince.

Fifth duel (Enceladus wins the roll off 6 to 1):

Round 1 - Abaddon chooses to attack with Drach'nyen and rolls a 4, attacking 8 times, 5 hits, 1 wound. Enceladus saves the invuln.
Enceladus attacks back 6 times, 2 hits, 2 wounds. Abaddon makes 1 and fails 1 invuln. Both now at 3 wounds.
Round 2 - Abaddon chooses to attack with Drach'nyen and rolls a 2, attacking 6 times, 2 hits and 2 wounds. Enceladus saves 1 and fails 1 invuln.
Enceladus attacks back 4 times, 4 hits, 3 wounds. Abaddon fails 2 and saves 1 invuln. Abaddon at 1 wound and Enceladus at 2.
Round 3 - Abaddon chooses to attack with Drach'nyen and rolls a 1, wounding himself and failing his invuln. He dies.

That was fun! Since Enceladus was on a bike and was T5 there was not much point hitting with Talon of Horus because it wouldn't have been an insta-death, so Abaddon was better off trying to maximise his attacks each round with Drach'nyen. Hitting him on no worse than a 4+ and at 3+ when he spanked himself is pretty standard. The Storm Shield kept me motoring on and eating his attacks up and attacking back at S8 meant I was wounding on 2's.

You can math hammer all you like but the dice wanna do what the dice wanna do. My made up BT Chaplain just got the better of Abaddon 3-2. A TH/SS model at T5 is a nasty prospect for anything to have to hit, including the great Despoiler.

On a side note, he managed a 66 on the Boon chart after killing Enceladus the second time. The chart specifies that the Daemon Prince keeps any mark the character had... Does this transform Abaddon into a Daemon Prince with the benefits of all 4 Gods?!?!

Your Abaddon doesn't have enough attacks. You didn't take rage or counter-attack into your # of attacks.

Enceladus wrote:
You can math hammer all you like but the dice wanna do what the dice wanna do. My made up BT Chaplain just got the better of Abaddon 3-2. A TH/SS model at T5 is a nasty prospect for anything to have to hit, including the great Despoiler.

Good job with the dice.

Out of curiousity
- How is the BT hero hitting on 3s?
- Did you remember Abbadon has 4 wounds and EW?
- Did you remember that Abbadon has hatred of marines, so can reroll attacks on the charge?
- Did you remember that Abbadon has perferred enemy so can reroll any results of a 1 on to-hit or to-wound.
- Did you remember that Abbadon has rage, so gets 7 attacks on the charge, not 5?
- Did you remember that Abbadon has 2 specialist weapons, so he gets 5 attacks base, not 4?
- Did you remember that Abbadon has counter-assault so he gets 6 attacks back when charged.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 labmouse42 wrote:

Enceladus wrote:
You can math hammer all you like but the dice wanna do what the dice wanna do. My made up BT Chaplain just got the better of Abaddon 3-2. A TH/SS model at T5 is a nasty prospect for anything to have to hit, including the great Despoiler.

Good job with the dice.

Out of curiousity
- How is the BT hero hitting on 3s?
- Did you remember Abbadon has 4 wounds and EW?
- Did you remember that Abbadon has hatred of marines, so can reroll attacks on the charge?
- Did you remember that Abbadon has perferred enemy so can reroll any results of a 1 on to-hit or to-wound.
- Did you remember that Abbadon has rage, so gets 7 attacks on the charge, not 5?
- Did you remember that Abbadon has 2 specialist weapons, so he gets 5 attacks base, not 4?
- Did you remember that Abbadon has counter-assault so he gets 6 attacks back when charged.

Abaddon is reduced to WS1 if he hits himself, meaning he's then hit on 3's.
I did indeed take into account 4 wounds and EW.
I did take into account Veterans of the Long War.
I didn't realise he had Rage and Counter-Attack, just realised he has all 4 Marks and this slipped my mind.

So I was pretty much only a swing short on his behalf. It probably would have made a slight difference to the outcomes but you can see he still has issues dealing with a T5 SS.TH model. I'd back Abaddon every time, don't get me wrong, but this Chaplain has more than a chance of competing. On all 3 occasions I killed him, he reduced himself to WS1 and I could hit him on 3+, otherwise he smashed me to bits because he was too hard to hit on 5+.

I'm by no means saying "MY IC BEATS ABADDON OMGWTFBBQ!!!" I just think I've thrown a pretty good option out there as far as IC's go! :-)

Abbadon Vs BT Champion
Now, onto the battle!
The BT champion has a number of advantages going for him. He has a STR 8 weapon, he has a 2+ save/3++ save. He even has a lot of attacks on the charge (though I'm not sure how he gets 6 attacks when charging). I took these averages assuming the BT always get the charge, since he has a 12" move it seems logical.

Abbadon using "Drach'nyen":
WS 7 vs. WS 6 = 77.77% chance to hit (with perferred enemy)
S 5 vs. T5 = 58.3% chance to wound (with perferred enemy)
Champion has a 3++ save = 33.33% chance to get through, and
Abbadon has counter-attack, so gets 6 attacks on the first round of combat.
On a roll of 1, the daemon weapon reduces WS to 1, and wounds Abbadon.

55.55% × 50.00% × 33.33%× 6 attacks. × 16.67% = 0.10, plus
83.33% × 50.00% × 33.33% × 8 attacks. × 16.67% = 0.22, plus
83.33% × 50.00% × 33.33% × 9 attacks × 16.67% = 0.24, plus
83.33% × 50.00% × 33.33% × 10 attacks × 16.67% = 0.26, plus
83.33% × 50.00% × 33.33% × 11 attacks × 16.67% = 0.29, plus
83.33% × 50.00% × 33.33% × 12 attacks × 16.67% = 0.32 equals ~1.45 unsaved wounds first turn.

38.90% × 50.00% × 33.33%× 5 attacks. × 16.67% = 0.06, plus
83.33% × 50.00% × 33.33% × 7 attacks. × 16.67% = 0.17, plus
83.33% × 50.00% × 33.33% × 8 attacks × 16.67% = 0.20, plus
83.33% × 50.00% × 33.33% × 9 attacks × 16.67% = 0.22, plus
83.33% × 50.00% × 33.33% × 10 attacks × 16.67% = 0.25, plus
83.33% × 50.00% × 33.33% × 11 attacks × 16.67% = 0.27 equals ~1.45 unsaved wounds first turn.
The BT Champion will likely die on round three before swinging.


BT Champion:
WS 6 vs. WS 7 = 50.00% chance to hit
Champion wounds Abbadon on a 2+
Champion has a master crafted weapon.
Champion has 6 attacks on the charge, 4 normally.
Abbadon has a 4+ save = 50.00% chance to get through, and

75.00% × 83.33% × 50.00% × 1 attacks =
50.00% × 83.33% × 50.00% × 5 attacks = 1.35 unsaved wounds round one

75.00% × 83.33% × 50.00% × 1 attacks =
50.00% × 83.33% × 50.00% × 3 attacks = 0937 unsaved wounds round two+
Abbadon will likely die at the bottom of round four.


Results:
Its a tougher matchup than some of the others. Abbadon will kill the BT champion two rounds earlier, meaning that the BT champion has a decent shot at it -- but odds are not in his favor. If Abbadon can use a normal CSM champion to each the 6 attack charge, the odds shift even better in Abbadon's favor.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Enceladus wrote:
I'm by no means saying "MY IC BEATS ABADDON OMGWTFBBQ!!!" I just think I've thrown a pretty good option out there as far as IC's go! :-)

Most importantly, you realized the hidden point of this thread.

"What makes an IC kick face in assault?" Its a few key things, all of which the BT champion has.
- 2+ save
- Good invuln
- Lots of attacks
- Good wound pool
- AP2 weapon

Put that BT IC up against nearly any other IC in the game, and you will see him crush face.

What about a standard Wolf Lord?

With a Thunderwolf Mount, WTN, Thunderhammer, Storm Shield, runic armor, saga of the bear, and two dogs.

He hits on 3+, wounds on 2s. The dogs give him a free reroll for moral support. He gets a hammer of wraith attack off the bat, and 6 attacks first turn, for just under 2 wounds to Abbadon.

Abbadon will do .75 with Drac.

Next round, both go at I 1, with the WL doing 1.4 w to Abbadon's .75

WL should kill by Turn 3, while Abbadon will have to wait till turn 4.

Wolf Lord comes out to 290, so only 25 points more.

edit: WL is WS 6, T5, 5A base, with 2+/3++ and EW.

 labmouse42 wrote:
Abbadon Vs BT Champion

Do you mean the Chaplain on a bike like in Enceladus' post or the EC, because the EC is not nearly that good and I'm not sure which one you mean (I'm finding my EC is getting roflstomped by every other character he meets atm )

BT characters (except the EC) are WS5
a chaplain on the charge would also get rerolls to hit

he can get 6 attacks from 3 in profile, +1 for Terminator honours, and with rage +2 on the charge =6

I've found my BT marshal on a bike to be quite a bulldozer except for when he meets Abbadon of Ghazghkull

What about a Dark Angels Company Master? Take Artificer Armour, Storm Shield, Bike, Mace of Retribution, and Shroud of Heroes. He has a 2+/3++, hits on a 4, wounds on a 2 with an AP2 weapon and has preferred enemy CSM, so re-rolls 1's on to hit and to wound. At T5 he won't get ID by the talon, and with the 2+ doesn't have to worry as much about the Daemon weapon. To top is all off, he would also get FNP from the Shroud. All in all a pricey way to take on Abaddon but might get the job done.

Edit: Just noticed you can't take the bike with the company master so nevermind.

I run a GK Draigowing and Abby gives all sorts of crazy problems. Best way i have found is to take a Vindicator Assassin. Strip his 2+ sv for the rest of the game and let Draigo or a Libby with a Warding Stave and some Paladins go to town on him. With the new FAQ he isn't even able to LoS the Vindicator shots. He aint so tough with only a 4++!

As far as I was aware you don't negate an armour save with the Vindicare Assassin, you negate any invuln conveyed by the model's wargear for the rest of the game. Abaddon would remain 2+ but would lose his invuln of 4++.

Enceladus wrote:
As far as I was aware you don't negate an armour save with the Vindicare Assassin, you negate any invuln conveyed by the model's wargear for the rest of the game. Abaddon would remain 2+ but would lose his invuln of 4++.

That could be my plan out the window. Ill double check when i get home. This could still be effective. Without a 4++ he would be vulnerable to AP2 shots and Weapons. Would still be a beast in CC but high volume of attacks might be the way to go.

Enceladus wrote:
As far as I was aware you don't negate an armour save with the Vindicare Assassin, you negate any invuln conveyed by the model's wargear for the rest of the game. Abaddon would remain 2+ but would lose his invuln of 4++.

Exitus Rifle is AP:1 Pretty sure that negates Abby's armour save.

 Krellnus wrote:
.
Exitus Rifle is AP:1 Pretty sure that negates Abby's armour save.

It would, in theory you could kill him in 2 turns using Turbo-penetrator rounds to cause 2 wounds per turn but he would still have his 4++ or use Shieldbreaker rounds first to strip the 4++ then keep popping him with the AP1 Exitus Rifle to soften him up for assault or just kill him without having to go through all the ablative terminator wounds he will surely have. Shame the Assassin is so damn squishy and probably wont last more than 2 or 3 turns.

Yea, he would probably be the main target of every helldrake on the board.

Probably a waste of a target for a Heldrake, with the flamer anyway. Can only cause 1 wound that would still have a 4++, but it would be a high priority target, and if Abby is deepstriking then he may not get a chance to shoot him at all.

 Messy0 wrote:
I run a GK Draigowing and Abby gives all sorts of crazy problems. Best way i have found is to take a Vindicator Assassin. Strip his 2+ sv for the rest of the game and let Draigo or a Libby with a Warding Stave and some Paladins go to town on him. With the new FAQ he isn't even able to LoS the Vindicator shots. He aint so tough with only a 4++!

That is the best testament to Abby's badassery.

Let me rephrase : "You can get rid of him by sending some assassin sniping him, then get a GK librarian with his paladin squad to go face to face with him, and for good measure, have him run over by a tank. Twice. Just to be sure."

The more I read this thread, the more I ask myself this :
1. Abbadon is a beast. How can you deliver him safely in CC?
2. How is he better than a DP with wings, PA and the black mace (mark to your liking)

Cause yeah, Abbadon rocks. But is he really useable in game?

I would say so. Best way off the top of my head would be to Deepstike him with 10 Terminators. Plenty of wounds, more than 1 character for challenges and they would be able to resist 1 round of shooting before they can get into CC. To me he is pretty much unstoppable unless you tailor to beat him, and im not a fan of tailoring my lists to beat 1 IC

You just wouldn't take him over a winged DP in competitive play though, would you? I'd do it just cos he's a pimp.

 Seb wrote:
Cause yeah, Abbadon rocks. But is he really useable in game?

I've been using him for a few weeks lately to a good degree of success.

I've been using my CSM for mid-board control by spamming lots of bodies. The problem with spam lists is that they are very weak to assault.
Abbadon solves this problem with his unique ability to say "Get of my Lawn!" when any assault unit gets close. Really, if anything gets close.