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I play DA and have found that throwing my HQs at Abby to be pretty suicidal. At least if they're alone... The new Belial with a thunderhammer/stormshield is kind of like Lysandor in being able to go toe to toe with tough as nails ICs like Abbadon, though not consistently.

So rather than throwing my HQ alone at Abbadon I add a Librarian in terminator armor to the command squad and roll on telepathy. If I get invisibility I end up with an HQ squad that's invisible, making Abbadon's weapon skill useless in the face of my now InvisiBelial in a challenge. This is real gimmicky but doing this made our LGS Chaos Abby player rethink his primary HQ choice... Up to then he'd been used to curb stomping opponent HQs but he was putting a lot of points into Abby, terminators, and a landraider. Abbadon still has a metric ton of attacks and wounds very easily, he just suddenly has a problem landing hits since he'll need a 5+ to hit in this situation.

I realize this thread is about Abbadon taking other IC's lunch money one on one so I apologize if using an HQ combo is out of the bounds, but why would I ever willingly throw an HQ into that meat grinder alone? Or allow Abbadon to get that close to my units at all? If I can shoot him to death I'd rather do that, or tar pit him, or as above; use a gimmick to trick the player into an assault he thinks he'll auto win and then yell "surprise your weapon skill is 1 while in combat with that squad!"

 BenchianFingers wrote:
n.I realize this thread is about Abbadon taking other IC's lunch money one on one so I apologize if using an HQ combo is out of the bounds, but why would I ever willingly throw an HQ into that meat grinder alone? Or allow Abbadon to get that close to my units at all? If I can shoot him to death I'd rather do that, or tar pit him, or as above; use a gimmick to trick the player into an assault he thinks he'll auto win and then yell "surprise your weapon skill is 1 while in combat with that squad!"

Opening up multiple ICs changes the equasion for many other ICs. What happens if Abbadon has a level 3 sorc helping him out by casting weakness on Belial? Giving 'combos' to one side but not the other is not fair.

The point of the thread is also not to say 'Abbadon will curb stop other ICs'. A smart reader will look at this and discover why Abbadon will take most other ICs lunch money. Looking at that, you can find a way to make your IC have the same benefits and become much more deadly in assault.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 azazel the cat wrote:
If Abbadon's weapons do not have armourbane, then I think Bjorn the Fell-Handed will likely keep his lunch money. AV 13, Venerable and a 5++ make Bjorn pretty tough to bring down in CC without the armourbane rule. I suspect that he simply doesn't have enough attacks to win, though..

Abbadon Vs Bjorn
Bjorn has AV 13, WS 6, STR 10, and 4 attacks per turn. He seems like a very dangerous matchup.
Lets see how it does.

Abbadon using "Talon of Horus":
WS 7 vs. WS 6 = 66.66% chance to hit
S 8 vs. AV13 = 33.33% chance to knock off hull point.
Abbadon has rage, so gets 7 attacks on the first round of combat.
Bjorn has a 5++ save, with 3 hull points.

66.66% × 33.33% × 66.66% × 7 attacks = ~1.03 Hull Points Knocked Off Round one
66.66% × 50.00% × 66.66% × 5 attacks = ~.74 unsaved wounds on the next rounds.
On round 4 Bjorn will die from hull point loss


Bjorn using DCCW:
WS 6 vs. WS 7 = 50.00% chance to hit
S 10 vs. T5 = 83.33% chance to knock off hull point.
Abbadon has a 4++ save = 50% chance to get through, and
Bjorn has a 5++ save, with 3 hull points.

50.00% × 83.33% × 50.00% × 4 attacks = ~.83 wounds per turn
Abbadon will die on turn 5.

Results
Bjorn will lose this battle. This was only counting hull point loss, and not even counting penetrating hits. To make matters worse, Bjorn does not have extra armor, so any 'stunned' result would result in Bjorn not attacking that round. Bjorn also risks losing his weapon.
Without those factors, I would say that its a fairly close matchup (being within 1 round) but with those factors, I think Abbadon has the edge in this duel.

A real good point and I'm not trying to detract from the original intent of the thread of hypothetical one on one fights between HQs but in most practical cases the HQs wouldn't make it to combat if they were completely alone with no squad or delivery method at least other than footslog... they almost always come with a command squad or something beefy to back them up plus a delivery method; landraider, rhino, drop pod, deathwing assault, or real brave footslogging. So they're already not alone.

In my case a Deathwing Command squad with the Deathwing banner and an apothecary. That alone changes the fight between Belial and Abbadon. Even if the squad isn't involved in the challenge they're still there and the banner and FnP count on Belial while in the challenge with Abbadon.

In my situation the Abby player never brought a second HQ due to the cost of his HQ, the unit attached, and their landraider. Knowing this I capitalized and took the second HQ to improve my own chances. Surely he could have taken a sorcerer too but up to then he'd had a pretty high success rate with just Abbadon so I'm sure from his point of view it wouldn't have made a difference. I don't let HQs like Vecht or Abbadon get close enough to bully my units if I can help it.

From a one on one view yes Abbadon > Belial almost every time and from a point cost he absolutely should. Abbadon has more attacks, higher initiative, and a higher weapon skill. They both have four wounds, eternal warrior, but Belial (can) have better saves and a weapon that hits at str 10 AP 2, which if he survives the first wave of attacks from Abby stand a good chance of overcoming his 4+ invul save. However the point I'm trying to make is that going into that assault Belial is going to have +1 attack and FnP from the get go. This buff to the HQ is only accomplished via a command squad. So adding something else to the command squad like a Librarian is just gravy and can add additional effects to further buff the entire unit. Such as telepathy granting invisibility to the entire squad.

The point of the thread is also not to say 'Abbadon will curb stop other ICs'. A smart reader will look at this and discover why Abbadon will take most other ICs lunch money. Looking at that, you can find a way to make your IC have the same benefits and become much more deadly in assault.

A smart player isn't going to throw their HQ that can't hold up against Abbadon against Abbadon alone if they can help it. Unless it's a stop gap method to slow Abbadon down or something. I'm certainly open to suggestions to making a named HQ that costs 190 points (that can't buy a bunch of shnazzy wargear & relics) more deadly in the assault against an HQ that costs 275 points that doesn't involve outside intervention from other units in the army.

Please disregard my stupid lack of reading ability.

Except at T4 you get no FNP. Belial would need to be with death knights and in btb contact with them to bring his T up to 5. It's still iffy.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
Swarmlord. The only thing with a chance against the Swarmlord in a duel has Mindshackle Scarabs, and none of those guys are Eternal Warriors, so even they don't have a very good chance.

What about a Daemon Prince with the Murder Sword?

 BenchianFingers wrote:
I'm certainly open to suggestions to making a named HQ that costs 190 points (that can't buy a bunch of shnazzy wargear & relics) more deadly in the assault against an HQ that costs 275 points that doesn't involve outside intervention from other units in the army.

Abbadon is 265. Logan is 275. Abbadon is only 75 more points than Belail.

Your missing the point. You can make an IC that's very effective for less. Sure it won't kill Abbadon -- but he can do good against a lot of other ICs.
Let me illustrate what makes an 'IC excellent in challanges'

2+ Armor Save
Most ICs in the game have AP3 weapons. In fact, you are more pressed to find AP2 weapons on special ICs than you might think. The DA book has none, for example. The DE book has one - and he can only join incubi squads. The SW book has two, and one of them is a dread.

Given this, any time you can have a 2+ save for an IC, its a huge advantage. This means that anybody with an AP3 weapon -- which is most named characters -- will just bounce off you. Mephison is a hell of a lot less scary if hes just scratching away at your 2+ armor save!

Therefore, when making your own ICs (lords, captains, etc) any time you can give a 2+ save its worth it. Artificer armor is the best way to do this, as terminator armor prevents sweeping -- but even terminator armor is better than no 2+ save.


AP2 weapon
On the same token, a lot of ICs do have artificer armor/terminator armor. The DA book has 3 of them, for example.

In order to combat this, you want to ensure your IC has the ability to deliver AP2 attacks when required. This can be done through a PF or power axe.

If you can force someone to go from a 2+ save to a 4++ save, you have increased your damage output by 250%.


Invlun
ICs with low invulns do not survive long. You want your IC to be toting at least a 4++ when possible. A 3++ is even better.

There is a reason that Mephiston is now the BA whipping boy. The lack of invuln save means he gets punked by any normal IC with artificer armor and a power fist.


Doubling Out / EW
Being able to double out ICs is really valueable. This is why I mentioned the PF earlier. This means that if your facing an enemy IC like Vect - one failed save means its good game.

What this means is that anyone without EW effectivly only has 1 wound from high str weapons. Even if your getting less total 'attacks' with your high STR weapon, your still doing more damage because you only need to do 1 wound to finish the fight.

At worst this means they die 100% faster (2 wounds) At worst they are dying 400% faster (4 wounds)


FNP
Any IC with FNP has significant boosts.
What makes FNP so good is that its an extra layer of defense. Any time you pick up those dice and reroll, more will fall through.

That's why a MEQ bolter is only has a 4/27 (14.8%) chance to kill a MEQ.
2/3 (to hit) * 2/3 (to wound) * 1/3 (failed save)
By forcing these dice to be picked up and rerolled your dramatically decreasing the total possible successes.

Lets show you how this works in action. Lets take a PG shot. Since they deny saves, they have a 4/9 chance to kill a MEQ. This is a 44.44%
2/3 (to hit) * 2/3 (to wound)

Now if you add in that 5++ FNP, the chances change to this.
2/3 (to hit) * 2/3 (to wound) * 2/3 (failed FNP)
The total is 2/9 or 29.62% to kill.

That's right. A 1/3 FNP save literally decreases the chances to kill by from ~45% to ~30%. That's significant!

How does this apply to ICs? Well, anytime your IC can get a FNP their survivability increases. Some ICs have this by default -- like Typhus, while others can get it from an apothicary.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 XT-1984 wrote:
What about a Daemon Prince with the Murder Sword?

This was covered earlier with a black mace -- which is better than the murder sword. Look at the OP and you will see that the DP can take abbadon's lunch money.

Sadly though, the DP is not an IC

Except at T4 you get no FNP. Belial would need to be with death knights and in btb contact with them to bring his T up to 5. It's still iffy.

This is a real good point and the FnP would be negated, but the +1 A from the banner would still apply and that still changes the potential outcome of the challenge. It's also still an outside modifier that Belial only gets when attached to the command squad.

Another way to think about this might be how to prevent Abbadon from taking your lunch at or below his point value.

So what would I bring for an IC to make him do well?

For SW, I would bring this
Wolf Lord
- Runic Armor
- Belt of Russ
- Saga of Bear
- Power Fist
- Wolf Claw

That's a 225 point IC that will take most other ICs lunch money.
He can either swing five STR 8 AP2 attacks, or 5 STR 4 attacks that reroll to wound. He has a 2+/4++.

Edit : Putting him onto a thunderwolf also helps greatly. At that point I would consider replacing the claw for a SS and dropping Saga of the Bear. Not many ICs have STR 10.

Your missing the point. You can make an IC that's very effective for less. Sure it won't kill Abbadon -- but he can do good against a lot of other ICs.
Let me illustrate what makes an 'IC excellent in challanges'

I see the point I'm just being oppositional defiant... It's too early and I haven't had my coffee. It's still a fun mental exercise. I'll conede that I'm definitely off topic; arguing a different view point entirely.

 BenchianFingers wrote:

Except at T4 you get no FNP. Belial would need to be with death knights and in btb contact with them to bring his T up to 5. It's still iffy.

This is a real good point and the FnP would be negated, but the +1 A from the banner would still apply and that still changes the potential outcome of the challenge. It's also still an outside modifier that Belial only gets when attached to the command squad.

Another way to think about this might be how to prevent Abbadon from taking your lunch at or below his point value.

By adding that, you could take Abbadon with FNP banner from slaanesh troops.

 labmouse42 wrote:

 BenchianFingers wrote:
n.I realize this thread is about Abbadon taking other IC's lunch money one on one so I apologize if using an HQ combo is out of the bounds, but why would I ever willingly throw an HQ into that meat grinder alone? Or allow Abbadon to get that close to my units at all? If I can shoot him to death I'd rather do that, or tar pit him, or as above; use a gimmick to trick the player into an assault he thinks he'll auto win and then yell "surprise your weapon skill is 1 while in combat with that squad!"

Opening up multiple ICs changes the equasion for many other ICs. What happens if Abbadon has a level 3 sorc helping him out by casting weakness on Belial? Giving 'combos' to one side but not the other is not fair.

The point of the thread is also not to say 'Abbadon will curb stop other ICs'. A smart reader will look at this and discover why Abbadon will take most other ICs lunch money. Looking at that, you can find a way to make your IC have the same benefits and become much more deadly in assault.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 azazel the cat wrote:
If Abbadon's weapons do not have armourbane, then I think Bjorn the Fell-Handed will likely keep his lunch money. AV 13, Venerable and a 5++ make Bjorn pretty tough to bring down in CC without the armourbane rule. I suspect that he simply doesn't have enough attacks to win, though..

Abbadon Vs Bjorn
Bjorn has AV 13, WS 6, STR 10, and 4 attacks per turn. He seems like a very dangerous matchup.
Lets see how it does.

Abbadon using "Talon of Horus":
WS 7 vs. WS 6 = 66.66% chance to hit
S 8 vs. AV13 = 33.33% chance to knock off hull point.
Abbadon has rage, so gets 7 attacks on the first round of combat.
Bjorn has a 5++ save, with 3 hull points.

66.66% × 33.33% × 66.66% × 7 attacks = ~1.03 Hull Points Knocked Off Round one
66.66% × 50.00% × 66.66% × 5 attacks = ~.74 unsaved wounds on the next rounds.
On round 4 Bjorn will die from hull point loss


Bjorn using DCCW:
WS 6 vs. WS 7 = 50.00% chance to hit
S 10 vs. T5 = 83.33% chance to knock off hull point.
Abbadon has a 4++ save = 50% chance to get through, and
Bjorn has a 5++ save, with 3 hull points.

50.00% × 83.33% × 50.00% × 4 attacks = ~.83 wounds per turn
Abbadon will die on turn 5.

Results
Bjorn will lose this battle. This was only counting hull point loss, and not even counting penetrating hits. To make matters worse, Bjorn does not have extra armor, so any 'stunned' result would result in Bjorn not attacking that round. Bjorn also risks losing his weapon.
Without those factors, I would say that its a fairly close matchup (being within 1 round) but with those factors, I think Abbadon has the edge in this duel.

abby hates and has PE space wolves, so he will kill Bjorn faster

I'm happy enough just tarpitting abby for 20 turns, good enough by my book for a cheaper IC. Leaves me more points to blow up the rest of the stuff around.

I just have to last long enough that the principal comes along to take care of abby the bully for me wmahahahaha.

 Exergy wrote:
abby hates and has PE space wolves, so he will kill Bjorn faster

Does that count?

I thought it was "space marines" and infantry/calvary models only. I did not think it would work vs a dread.

If it does, then your right, Bjorn will fall even faster.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 sudojoe wrote:
I'm happy enough just tarpitting abby for 20 turns, good enough by my book for a cheaper IC. Leaves me more points to blow up the rest of the stuff around.

I just have to last long enough that the principal comes along to take care of abby the bully for me wmahahahaha.

Now the question is -- will you be bringing that librarian in your all-comers list?

Im pretty sure PE works against anything from any SM dex.
So no matter what slot, its all SM at the end of the day and you will still be rerolling 1's.

sudojoe wrote:
I'm happy enough just tarpitting abby for 20 turns, good enough by my book for a cheaper IC. Leaves me more points to blow up the rest of the stuff around.

I just have to last long enough that the principal comes along to take care of abby the bully for me wmahahahaha.
Now the question is -- will you be bringing that librarian in your all-comers list?

The liby is kind of useful still as a buffing unit for other stuff even if there was no super challenge. I generally get him with the codex power and just give up 5 points to be flexible in case I'm just using him for stealth + reinfoced ruins combo to give alot of units a 2+ cover or 3+ cover behind an aegis vs using him to engage in close combat so he can support my henchmen gunlines and or go on the attack with purifiers in a land raider. (yes the land raider in this case would have 2+ cover in a ruins so it's a big boat lol)

The liby build I typically use is actually the one I modeled in this case example which is kind of why I figured he'd do just fine accepting abby's challenge. ( in this showcase fight though I'd have made him lv 3 just to up to 48% chance to get precognition)

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/460371.page

see the HQ section, it's kind of been one of my standard liby's in 6th (when we still did some assaults, now I've moved onto quite a few more DK+ gunline builds I may bring him back for some fun as I'm retooling trying to figure out how to beat the CSM noisemarine + heldrake spam now or w/e the new upcomming tau/eldar will bring (which I also play so I fight myself quite a bit lol)

Incidentially having the liby in a squad with the right orientation, I can tank a heldrake for the squad as he'll eat all the AP3 wounds on his termy armor before anyone in the squad will die to AP3 ignore cover flamers or blast masters so he's even a bit more useful there.

 labmouse42 wrote:

 Exergy wrote:
abby hates and has PE space wolves, so he will kill Bjorn faster

Does that count?

I thought it was "space marines" and infantry/calvary models only. I did not think it would work vs a dread.

If it does, then your right, Bjorn will fall even faster.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 sudojoe wrote:
I'm happy enough just tarpitting abby for 20 turns, good enough by my book for a cheaper IC. Leaves me more points to blow up the rest of the stuff around.

I just have to last long enough that the principal comes along to take care of abby the bully for me wmahahahaha.

Now the question is -- will you be bringing that librarian in your all-comers list?

not limited to infantry / calvary and there is a note in the dex that SM includes BA, DA, GK, C:SM, SW yadda yadda.

 labmouse42 wrote:

 BenchianFingers wrote:
n.I realize this thread is about Abbadon taking other IC's lunch money one on one so I apologize if using an HQ combo is out of the bounds, but why would I ever willingly throw an HQ into that meat grinder alone? Or allow Abbadon to get that close to my units at all? If I can shoot him to death I'd rather do that, or tar pit him, or as above; use a gimmick to trick the player into an assault he thinks he'll auto win and then yell "surprise your weapon skill is 1 while in combat with that squad!"

Opening up multiple ICs changes the equasion for many other ICs. What happens if Abbadon has a level 3 sorc helping him out by casting weakness on Belial? Giving 'combos' to one side but not the other is not fair.

The point of the thread is also not to say 'Abbadon will curb stop other ICs'. A smart reader will look at this and discover why Abbadon will take most other ICs lunch money. Looking at that, you can find a way to make your IC have the same benefits and become much more deadly in assault.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 azazel the cat wrote:
If Abbadon's weapons do not have armourbane, then I think Bjorn the Fell-Handed will likely keep his lunch money. AV 13, Venerable and a 5++ make Bjorn pretty tough to bring down in CC without the armourbane rule. I suspect that he simply doesn't have enough attacks to win, though..

Abbadon Vs Bjorn
Bjorn has AV 13, WS 6, STR 10, and 4 attacks per turn. He seems like a very dangerous matchup.
Lets see how it does.

Abbadon using "Talon of Horus":
WS 7 vs. WS 6 = 66.66% chance to hit
S 8 vs. AV13 = 33.33% chance to knock off hull point.
Abbadon has rage, so gets 7 attacks on the first round of combat.
Bjorn has a 5++ save, with 3 hull points.

66.66% × 33.33% × 66.66% × 7 attacks = ~1.03 Hull Points Knocked Off Round one
66.66% × 50.00% × 66.66% × 5 attacks = ~.74 unsaved wounds on the next rounds.
On round 4 Bjorn will die from hull point loss


Bjorn using DCCW:
WS 6 vs. WS 7 = 50.00% chance to hit
S 10 vs. T5 = 83.33% chance to knock off hull point.
Abbadon has a 4++ save = 50% chance to get through, and
Bjorn has a 5++ save, with 3 hull points.

50.00% × 83.33% × 50.00% × 4 attacks = ~.83 wounds per turn
Abbadon will die on turn 5.

Results
Bjorn will lose this battle. This was only counting hull point loss, and not even counting penetrating hits. To make matters worse, Bjorn does not have extra armor, so any 'stunned' result would result in Bjorn not attacking that round. Bjorn also risks losing his weapon.
Without those factors, I would say that its a fairly close matchup (being within 1 round) but with those factors, I think Abbadon has the edge in this duel.

You also failed to take into account that Abaddon gets re-rolls to hit against him....might even have preferred enemy too, can't remember at the minute


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 labmouse42 wrote:

 BenchianFingers wrote:
I'm certainly open to suggestions to making a named HQ that costs 190 points (that can't buy a bunch of shnazzy wargear & relics) more deadly in the assault against an HQ that costs 275 points that doesn't involve outside intervention from other units in the army.

Abbadon is 265. Logan is 275. Abbadon is only 75 more points than Belail.

Your missing the point. You can make an IC that's very effective for less. Sure it won't kill Abbadon -- but he can do good against a lot of other ICs.
Let me illustrate what makes an 'IC excellent in challanges'

2+ Armor Save
Most ICs in the game have AP3 weapons. In fact, you are more pressed to find AP2 weapons on special ICs than you might think. The DA book has none, for example. The DE book has one - and he can only join incubi squads. The SW book has two, and one of them is a dread.

Given this, any time you can have a 2+ save for an IC, its a huge advantage. This means that anybody with an AP3 weapon -- which is most named characters -- will just bounce off you. Mephison is a hell of a lot less scary if hes just scratching away at your 2+ armor save!

Therefore, when making your own ICs (lords, captains, etc) any time you can give a 2+ save its worth it. Artificer armor is the best way to do this, as terminator armor prevents sweeping -- but even terminator armor is better than no 2+ save.


AP2 weapon
On the same token, a lot of ICs do have artificer armor/terminator armor. The DA book has 3 of them, for example.

In order to combat this, you want to ensure your IC has the ability to deliver AP2 attacks when required. This can be done through a PF or power axe.

If you can force someone to go from a 2+ save to a 4++ save, you have increased your damage output by 250%.


Invlun
ICs with low invulns do not survive long. You want your IC to be toting at least a 4++ when possible. A 3++ is even better.

There is a reason that Mephiston is now the BA whipping boy. The lack of invuln save means he gets punked by any normal IC with artificer armor and a power fist.


Doubling Out / EW
Being able to double out ICs is really valueable. This is why I mentioned the PF earlier. This means that if your facing an enemy IC like Vect - one failed save means its good game.

What this means is that anyone without EW effectivly only has 1 wound from high str weapons. Even if your getting less total 'attacks' with your high STR weapon, your still doing more damage because you only need to do 1 wound to finish the fight.

At worst this means they die 100% faster (2 wounds) At worst they are dying 400% faster (4 wounds)


FNP
Any IC with FNP has significant boosts.
What makes FNP so good is that its an extra layer of defense. Any time you pick up those dice and reroll, more will fall through.

That's why a MEQ bolter is only has a 4/27 (14.8%) chance to kill a MEQ.
2/3 (to hit) * 2/3 (to wound) * 1/3 (failed save)
By forcing these dice to be picked up and rerolled your dramatically decreasing the total possible successes.

Lets show you how this works in action. Lets take a PG shot. Since they deny saves, they have a 4/9 chance to kill a MEQ. This is a 44.44%
2/3 (to hit) * 2/3 (to wound)

Now if you add in that 5++ FNP, the chances change to this.
2/3 (to hit) * 2/3 (to wound) * 2/3 (failed FNP)
The total is 2/9 or 29.62% to kill.

That's right. A 1/3 FNP save literally decreases the chances to kill by from ~45% to ~30%. That's significant!

How does this apply to ICs? Well, anytime your IC can get a FNP their survivability increases. Some ICs have this by default -- like Typhus, while others can get it from an apothicary.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 XT-1984 wrote:
What about a Daemon Prince with the Murder Sword?

This was covered earlier with a black mace -- which is better than the murder sword. Look at the OP and you will see that the DP can take abbadon's lunch money.

Sadly though, the DP is not an IC

The dark eldar books one your referring to would be Drazhar correct? AFAIK unless its been FAQ'D the witch special characters attacks bypass armour

Thoroughly enjoyable thread labmouse, love the mathammering and really interesting stuff to know/apply.
#salute

 Ratius wrote:
Thoroughly enjoyable thread labmouse, love the mathammering and really interesting stuff to know/apply.
#salute

Thanks

Well hell, if we're including escort units than Ghaz in a min. size Green Tide attacking a solo Abby would get 20 rerolls to hit, to wound and his 2++ save. Alas, 90 Shoota Boyz with 10 BS's would Dakka him to death before the fun started.

 PipeAlley wrote:
Well hell, if we're including escort units than Ghaz in a min.

Of all the ICs, Ghaz is actually one of the closest to being able to punk Abbadon. The reason for this is his ability to get a 2++ for two rounds of combat. If Ghaz can set it up so he gets both rounds in his duel with Abbadon he will win.

The problem, of course, is that rarely happens. My buddy plays Ghaz and I face him once every other week. What always happens is this. Ghaz charges forward with 4 mega-nobs. I challenge with a PM aspiring champion. Abbadon challenges on round two. That limits the invuln save to only one turn for Ghaz -- which tips the balance into Abbadons favor.

Ghaz has many of the key elements to make him a beast in a duel.
* High damage output
* High damage resistance (2++ for two rounds!)
* EW
* High STR for insta-death

 labmouse42 wrote:
That limits the invuln save to only one turn for Ghaz -- which tips the balance into Abbadons favor.

Why would Ghaz not just wait until he's in combat with Abaddon to Waaagh!?

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 labmouse42 wrote:
That limits the invuln save to only one turn for Ghaz -- which tips the balance into Abbadons favor.

Why would Ghaz not just wait until he's in combat with Abaddon to Waaagh!?

cant he only waaaagh in his turn?

 Exergy wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 labmouse42 wrote:
That limits the invuln save to only one turn for Ghaz -- which tips the balance into Abbadons favor.

Why would Ghaz not just wait until he's in combat with Abaddon to Waaagh!?

cant he only waaaagh in his turn?

Yea but he can do it once he's already locked in the duel, surelly its a bit of a stretch for abby to one turn gib him.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also we should be doing it in a vacuum, so run the math once with Ghaz getting the waaagh on 1st turn then once with it 2nd turn.

 Red Corsair wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 labmouse42 wrote:
That limits the invuln save to only one turn for Ghaz -- which tips the balance into Abbadons favor.

Why would Ghaz not just wait until he's in combat with Abaddon to Waaagh!?

cant he only waaaagh in his turn?

Yea but he can do it once he's already locked in the duel, surelly its a bit of a stretch for abby to one turn gib him.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also we should be doing it in a vacuum, so run the math once with Ghaz getting the waaagh on 1st turn then once with it 2nd turn.

he only has a 5++ so he could end up getting gibbed in one turn. If not, he likely will have taken enough damage that even with his 2++ he will still go down.

 XT-1984 wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:
Swarmlord. The only thing with a chance against the Swarmlord in a duel has Mindshackle Scarabs, and none of those guys are Eternal Warriors, so even they don't have a very good chance.

What about a Daemon Prince with the Murder Sword?

Swarmlord causes Insant Death and is generally immune to it, so no.

I've played four games against my friend with Tyranids. He's only rolled Iron Arm for one of his 'Nids in only one game.

That's some bad rolling, but it goes to show that it can not be depended on.

This thread makes me want to run Abaddon.

Keeper of Secrets w/ Strength, -1A, and defensive grenades. Quick math shows Abby using talon for dying round 4 before he swings.

 Chubs wrote:
Keeper of Secrets w/ Strength, -1A, and defensive grenades. Quick math shows Abby using talon for dying round 4 before he swings.

Already been covered sir. Check the OP, and you will see.

Also, note that greater daemons are not ICs.