Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 XT-1984 wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:
Swarmlord. The only thing with a chance against the Swarmlord in a duel has Mindshackle Scarabs, and none of those guys are Eternal Warriors, so even they don't have a very good chance.

What about a Daemon Prince with the Murder Sword?

Swarmlord causes Insant Death and is generally immune to it, so no.

the murder sword causes ID as well. The DP strikes first, hits on 3s wounds on 2s, then the 4++. The swarmlord will kill the DP almost certianly if he gets to strike. IF HE GETS TO STRIKE.

pantofful wrote:
Llylith is a decent matchup.

she will attacke first,
roughly ~ 5 hits
roughly ~ 4 wounds, with no armor save.

it comes down to who makes their invlunerable saves (hers is a 3+).

lilith wounds on a 6 v abbadon

And still needs him to fail four invulnreable saves whereas he only needs to wound once with dracynen, short of a wizard casting something to make it closer abaddon would eat the she-elf

I know that their not independant characters, but how would a 5 man squad of DW Knights go. Their roughly the same price and this is the type of thing that they are supposed to do, with their 1 lower AP against chaos and their special killy thingo. Could anyone do the math?

Everytime I read more and more of this post, I really want to field Abaddon. Just waiting on getting my cultists finished to run with him.

I'll post what happens with him, see how it works out with the blob

 bobtheoverlord wrote:
I know that their not independant characters, but how would a 5 man squad of DW Knights go. Their roughly the same price and this is the type of thing that they are supposed to do, with their 1 lower AP against chaos and their special killy thingo. Could anyone do the math?

there are plenty of squads that can do it. Deathwing knights are actually pretty bad at it. Outside of their 1 smite round they are wounding on 3+ and abby gets his 2+ save.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Solomongrundy wrote:
Everytime I read more and more of this post, I really want to field Abaddon. Just waiting on getting my cultists finished to run with him.

I'll post what happens with him, see how it works out with the blob

I am liking chosen wing. Dont think it uber effective but I think it would be fun. Abby is gonna lead a squad of 10 chosen with MoN and 5 plasma(very expensive I know) There will be another squad of 6 with 5 flamers and 7 with 5 melta and perhaps another squad of 8 with 4-5 plasma running around in his bubble too.

not against the knight master he ain't but yeah DEathwing knight are not gonna take down abby however there is one Da character who can make him alot easier to deal with Ezekial.

 Exergy wrote:
I am liking chosen wing. Dont think it uber effective but I think it would be fun. Abby is gonna lead a squad of 10 chosen with MoN and 5 plasma(very expensive I know) There will be another squad of 6 with 5 flamers and 7 with 5 melta and perhaps another squad of 8 with 4-5 plasma running around in his bubble too.

I've been playing with Chosen, and I will keep working on it till I find what works.

This is my current 10 man chosen squads loadout
- Mark of Nurgle (as it gives a 30% increased RPP to bolters with only a 15% decrease to PGs)
- 2 Flamers (cheap and provides overwatch + hoard control)
- Autocannon (cheap anti-tank shot, good to snap shot vs flyers)
- 2 PGs (MEQ killing power)

The idea is to use them at TAC squads with 5 heavy/special weapon options. Unlike a C:SM TAC squad, they get 4 attacks on the charge.
The idea is to not overload them with to expensive of special weapons. While 5 PGs is appealing, its also 75 points. The weapon loadout above is 50 points, and provides a lot of flexability. I am tempted on changing out the AC for a LC in some squads. I might also swap out a flamer/PG for a MG every now and then.

It might not work out at all, of course. I may try it for a few weeks then discard it as 'garbage' but Ill give it a fair shot until then.

I have to say if abbadons strength 8 roll was 1 strength less then brother corbulo would be the ultimate troll for him. Abbadon walks up to corbulo and is all like lunch money loss corbulo says 2+ fnp and so 3 turns later corbulos down and Abbadon says panting now gimme yo lunch money corbulo stands up and says one re roll per game *troll face* but realistically corbulo would be dead. But is the ultimate one man tarpit put with some cheap unit to look out sir strength 8 weapons.

Haven't read the whole thread.

What about 29 shoota boyz with a PK Nob on the charge vs Abby? (not likely to happen as Abby does have friends too!).

Not sure if this was discussed but, has combat tactics and calagar's ap 2 twin linked bolter been factored in?

I know in a pure swing by swing abbadon wins but what about disengaging on on abandons turn and piping him with the ap 2 bolters every other round? Seems like it might tip the scale.

Abbadon is pure evil, but remember there are some pairings for him that are more valuable than others. Also, remember he has this affinity with some other units and makes them look better just by being around.

- Bring along a squad with a sergeant to take on the challenges. Khorne CSMs, Berzerkers, Possessed and Terminators are good choices.

- Give him AV support. He's not going to be able to take out Dreadnoughts efficiently. A lascannon havoc squad or a lascannon predator can go a long way to keeping him in productive battles.

- Pair him with shooty anti-infantry squads to wipe out enemy units in a single round. Noise Marines and Plasma Chosen are excellent at softening up targets before Abbadon charges in to kill what's left.

- Set him up to fight with something with a unit with an icon. IoS is outstanding, Abbadon with FNP is just plain mean to do to people.

Some things that seem to limit his effectiveness include:

- Cultists. Try embedding him in a 30 man cultist unit. There are going to be problems bringing Abbadon to the front because of all the models in the way.

- Spawn. Surprised me to think this, but they actually make poor bodyguards b/c of the lack of a sergeant. Abbadon gets tied up, and even units of 5 spawn are not enough to just wipe out units.

- Allies. When you have Abbadon, you have a vaccum cleaner that can rapidly eat up enemy units. Don't spend the points on an allied commander, spend the points on Chaos units that will compliment what you are doing with Abbadon.

I have been running him in 3 lists for the past couple months, here are some variations I have had a lot of success with:

- Abbadon and the Termipals: Get Abbadon, a CL in terminator armor with MoZ and the Black Mace, and a Terminator squad with MoT. Run it as a single unit and watch your enemies race to attack it. It's not going to happen, and you are going to dominate every close combat.

- Abbadon and His Chosen / Noise Marines: Get Abbadon and a few units of plasma chosen or Noise Marines. March Abbadon up the board and shoot up any units he encounters just before he charges. People will think Abbadon is an easy target to kill by shooting, he's not, so you get several free rounds of shooting for your troops with fairly powerful guns.

- Abbadon's Flying Circus: This is a harder list to play, there is no easy button, but it's outstanding when it works right. Put Abbadon in a Land Raider with a smaller assault squad and get 3 Heldrakes. Have the Heldrakes vector strike and baleflamer the toughest enemy unit (i.e. a deathstar), then have Abbadon assault from within the Land Raider. This just messed with people, they can't blow up anything the first couple rounds, then you march out and take out their toughest unit. It draws in their other units, and Abbadon is at this best when he is fighting a ton of units in cc.

 whembly wrote:
Haven't read the whole thread.

What about 29 shoota boyz with a PK Nob on the charge vs Abby? (not likely to happen as Abby does have friends too!).

Hey there Whembly. The point of the thread is not a 'beat this unit' thread, but instead a thread on what makes an IC dominate.
Some people have given good suggestions on how to use Abbadon properly.

To answer your question. A squad of 29 boys + PK nob are very hard to calculate. This is because not all 30 boys will be in range to swing. Your going to get a subset of them.
Also the PK nob won't swing. Abbadon will challange on the turn you come in. Its critical that your boys swing on that turn, so you cant afford to feed the nob to them. As such, the nob will just hide from Abbadon and not contribute. The nob will be gibbed if he challanges Abbadon.

To see how well an ork boy does. These are the chances of him hurting Abbadon
1/2 * 1/3 * 1/6 = 1/36 chance of wounding on the turn they charge. For every 9 (slugga) boys you have near him you can expect to do one wound.
1/2 * 1/6 * 1/6 = 1/72 chance of wounding afterwords. For every 24 boys within 3" of him you can expect to do one wound.

Abbadon will be killing ~8 ork boys per turn. To make matters even worse for the boys, Abbadons killing range will be so great that you won't be able to get many orks close to him.
If you want to see Abbadon die to a squad, look at DA knights.

Or a CC CheeseCourt.

 labmouse42 wrote:

 whembly wrote:
Haven't read the whole thread.

What about 29 shoota boyz with a PK Nob on the charge vs Abby? (not likely to happen as Abby does have friends too!).

Hey there Whembly. The point of the thread is not a 'beat this unit' thread, but instead a thread on what makes an IC dominate.
Some people have given good suggestions on how to use Abbadon properly.

To answer your question. A squad of 29 boys + PK nob are very hard to calculate. This is because not all 30 boys will be in range to swing. Your going to get a subset of them.
Also the PK nob won't swing. Abbadon will challange on the turn you come in. Its critical that your boys swing on that turn, so you cant afford to feed the nob to them. As such, the nob will just hide from Abbadon and not contribute. The nob will be gibbed if he challanges Abbadon.

To see how well an ork boy does. These are the chances of him hurting Abbadon
1/2 * 1/3 * 1/6 = 1/36 chance of wounding on the turn they charge. For every 9 (slugga) boys you have near him you can expect to do one wound.
1/2 * 1/6 * 1/6 = 1/72 chance of wounding afterwords. For every 24 boys within 3" of him you can expect to do one wound.

Abbadon will be killing ~8 ork boys per turn. To make matters even worse for the boys, Abbadons killing range will be so great that you won't be able to get many orks close to him.
If you want to see Abbadon die to a squad, look at DA knights.

Gotcha...

Ghazzie on his Waagh might have a chance...albeit slim.

Other than that... my answer is usually to avoid him and dakka him to death (roll those 's).

In a battle of HQs a year or two ago, the Bloodthirster came out on top, beating even the Swarmlord and Abaddon. Might've just been luck, but the Thirster is supposed to be the king of melee and that proved it.

Today I was deciding whether to use Kharn and AxeLord (with Berzekers) vs Typhus and Plague Marines....this is for an 1850 tournie. I'd have either bunch in a Land Raider. Typhus survived 5 test rounds vs Kharn in a challenge and killed Kharn in a minimum of 2 rounds each time. The same happened vs the AxeLord, though he lasted 2 rounds 2 more times than Kharn (Sigil of Corruption helped there).

I think Typhus might be able to keep his lunch money vs Abaddon, as vs Drachnyen he'd still get the 5+ invul and Feel No Pain, plus that would only wound Typhus on 4s, whereas the ManReaper would wound Abaddon on 3s, though they hit on 4s/3s respectively.

Putting both Typhus and Abaddon together with Plague Marines in a Land Raider would be ridiculously awesome vs nearly any unit!

 Exergy wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

Swarmlord causes Insant Death and is generally immune to it, so no.

the murder sword causes ID as well. The DP strikes first, hits on 3s wounds on 2s, then the 4++. The swarmlord will kill the DP almost certianly if he gets to strike. IF HE GETS TO STRIKE.

You missed a part.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Watchersinthedark wrote:
What about a Dark Angels Company Master? Take Artificer Armour, Storm Shield, Bike, Mace of Retribution, and Shroud of Heroes.

Company Masters can't take Bikes.

Don't suppose Lysander is up for contention? Decent wounds, 2+/3++ and a mastercrafted str10 t-hammer to boot. ANd I think hes got EW as well, not sure.

You forgot about one, Abbadon vs. Abbadon! Lol no. Seriously though, I feel as though Abbadon vs the well kitted Necron Lord, or a psyker, like Njal Stormcaller or Mephiston, he would be in deel trouble. Also against Logan Grinmar. Using Morkai as a Power fist, always hitting on 3+ and 2+/4++ save, which isnt the best, but certainly good, also with Counter Attack, he could do well against Abbadon.

However I also feel as though the new CSM book is a little ridiculous over all. 65pt HQ choices which start of really good, and cheap infantry mixed with cheap marks and crazy new units/rules with the Obliterators and Terminators, make them really way better than regular marines, and most armies.

Though it is a pretty stellar example of GW and the usual, each book is more ridiculous than the last, sort of deal. Space Wolves were awesome, then Blood Angles were just ridiculous, and now Chaos Space Marines are ridiculous. Though Dark Angels only mildly broke that pattern. Also showing how GW favors the evil style armies.

Mountain-Breaker wrote:
You forgot about one, Abbadon vs. Abbadon! Lol no. Seriously though, I feel as though Abbadon vs the well kitted Necron Lord, or a psyker, like Njal Stormcaller or Mephiston, he would be in deel trouble. Also against Logan Grinmar. Using Morkai as a Power fist, always hitting on 3+ and 2+/4++ save, which isnt the best, but certainly good, also with Counter Attack, he could do well against Abbadon.

However I also feel as though the new CSM book is a little ridiculous over all. 65pt HQ choices which start of really good, and cheap infantry mixed with cheap marks and crazy new units/rules with the Obliterators and Terminators, make them really way better than regular marines, and most armies.

Though it is a pretty stellar example of GW and the usual, each book is more ridiculous than the last, sort of deal. Space Wolves were awesome, then Blood Angles were just ridiculous, and now Chaos Space Marines are ridiculous. Though Dark Angels only mildly broke that pattern. Also showing how GW favors the evil style armies.

Mephiston would be very bad, his AP3 sword bouncing of Abby's armour, same for Njal.

lol if you think chaos is better than dark angels

 Juvieus Kaine wrote:
Don't suppose Lysander is up for contention? Decent wounds, 2+/3++ and a mastercrafted str10 t-hammer to boot. ANd I think hes got EW as well, not sure.

Lysander lacks the attacks to take Abbadon down. When Abbadon is smacking Lysander 8.5 times per round, and Lysander is smacking 3 times back, he just can't stand the punishment.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lord Krungharr wrote:
I think Typhus might be able to keep his lunch money vs Abaddon, as vs Drachnyen he'd still get the 5+ invul and Feel No Pain, plus that would only wound Typhus on 4s, whereas the ManReaper would wound Abaddon on 3s, though they hit on 4s/3s respectively.!

Typhus is an excellent contender. With FNP and 5++, he has a 55% chance to save.

The big drawback typhus has is the lack of attacks. His base is 3 attacks and he does not get an extra CCW like Abbadon does. This means Abbadon is sporting 5 attacks base while Typhus only gets 3. Those extra attacks edge it out over Typhus over a few rounds -- though it is close.

Typhus has a number of tools to be an excellent IC. He has a 2+ save, a 55% to ignore AP2 attacks, an AP2 weapon, and lots of attacks. His big weakness is that STR 10 attacks gib him.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 whembly wrote:
Ghazzie on his Waagh might have a chance...albeit slim.

Ghaz actually comes within one round of killing Abbadon. If Ghaz gets both rounds of Waaagh off, he has an edge over Abbadon.

Ghaz is a remarkably nasty IC for 2 combat rounds.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mountain-Breaker wrote:
You forgot about one, Abbadon vs. Abbadon! Lol no. Seriously though, I feel as though Abbadon vs the well kitted Necron Lord, or a psyker, like Njal Stormcaller or Mephiston, he would be in deel trouble. Also against Logan Grinmar. Using Morkai as a Power fist, always hitting on 3+ and 2+/4++ save, which isnt the best, but certainly good, also with Counter Attack, he could do well against Abbadon..

* The Necron Lord will kill Abbadon, provided the lord has gotten the correct gear.
* Njal and Mephiston bounce off Abbadon. They die quickly.
* Logan is a decent matchup. He eventually fails due to only having 3 wounds and 5 attacks.

Mountain-Breaker wrote:


However I also feel as though the new CSM book is a little ridiculous over all. 65pt HQ choices which start of really good, and cheap infantry mixed with cheap marks and crazy new units/rules with the Obliterators and Terminators, make them really way better than regular marines, and most armies.

Um how?

DA tac marines come with more options and skills and cost 5 points less to start with. We have to pay additional points to get bonus vs Marines, their bonus vs Chaos is built in.

Most of our elite choices are only there to make into troop choices with the right HQ, the remaining elite section is decidedly lackluster, no cult terminators for example while the new niche marine codex includes not only Deathwing armies, but a new sub-sect of EVEN MORE ELITE DEATHWING RAWR.

Oblits and Terminators aren't new units either, not sure why you make a note of them. Oblits are now more limited than they were in 5E being that they can't use the same weapon consecutively - for no apparent reason other than they wanted to add a rule in.

We can't use drop pods, even though fluff-wise Chaos has superior ones. Even if we could marines would just ally with GK and quake us off the table/Coteaz. Chaos is from the warp and yet we have absolutely no extra bonus to effecting enemy deepstrike or psychics, whereas marines (and specifically GK have skills abound).

MarsNZ wrote:
DA tac marines come with more options and skills and cost 5 points less to start with. We have to pay additional points to get bonus vs Marines, their bonus vs Chaos is built in.

That's because they are not paying for a sergeant. If you count the cost of a sergeant, they are 1 more point base than CSM. If you kit a DA TAC squad out exactly like a C:SM TAC squad the cost is identical. The only advantage DA TACs have is they can go 5 man with a heavy weapon.

The problem is DA TACs suck for troops. They are not resilient.
First is the LD problem. If you skip the sergeant, your failing break tests 27.77% of the time instead of 16.66% of the time. While DA have ATSKNF, it does not help you if your fall off the board, or break on the bottom of the last turn. Breaking is great when you have combat tactics and you choose when to break. Breaking sucks when it happens when you don't want it to.

The second problem is the failure of TAC squads in assault. Having no extra CCW and only 1 attack means they just crumple when anyone looks at them. DA are even worse than C:SM tacs. Normally when wraiths attack C:SM, they lose the combat by 5, fall back then shoot the wraiths in the face. DA TACS are stubborn so are rolling on their unmodified leadership. Instead of shooting wraiths in the face, they become wraith o'derves.

Are CSM better? No. You can give them some nice upgrades, like MoN, but they are still lacking when compared to PMs/NMs. The cost to boost up a squad of CSM to be decent makes them point prohibitive.

OK, I've skimmed and I think Wolf Lords were mentioned but didn't see the maths. Would the following lord keep his lunch money?

Wolf Lord on Thunderwolf, Artificer Armour, Thunderhammer and Storm Sheild, Saga of the Beastslayer.

About the same price as Abby at 260 points.

[

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

Swarmlord causes Insant Death and is generally immune to it, so no.

the murder sword causes ID as well. The DP strikes first, hits on 3s wounds on 2s, then the 4++. The swarmlord will kill the DP almost certianly if he gets to strike. IF HE GETS TO STRIKE.

You missed a part.

 Exergy wrote:
Typhus has no invulnerable save.

He wears terminator armor. Doesn't that come with a 5++?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dundas wrote:
OK, I've skimmed and I think Wolf Lords were mentioned but didn't see the maths. Would the following lord keep his lunch money?

Wolf Lord on Thunderwolf, Artificer Armour, Thunderhammer and Storm Sheild, Saga of the Beastslayer.

About the same price as Abby at 260 points.

If the wolf lord also takes the wolf tail talisman so hes always hitting on 3+ they will kill each other on the same round, on I1, due to the concussive effect of the thunder hammer.

This happens on round 3 of the assault.

The problem, of course, is that your wolf lord wants to take saga of the bear. If he does not, Ghaz will gimp him in round 1 with an ID.

 labmouse42 wrote:

 Exergy wrote:
Typhus has no invulnerable save.

He wears terminator armor. Doesn't that come with a 5++?

yup, ooppps

Has the break down of Abbadon v. Papa Smurf been done? factoring combat tactics to allow Papa smurf to keep shooting his ap 2 twin linked bolter and charging abbadon? Seems like he might be a good contender.

Pony_law wrote:
Has the break down of Abbadon v. Papa Smurf been done? factoring combat tactics to allow Papa smurf to keep shooting his ap 2 twin linked bolter and charging abbadon? Seems like he might be a good contender.

Pappa smurf must beat Abbadon in an init check to use combat tactics.

Hes Init 5, while Abbadon it init 6. Since he must beat Abbadon, not tie him, the odds are not good that he can fall back and shoot Abbadon in the face.

Also, remember that bolter is not that great vs Abbadon.
It hits 5/6 of the time, wounds 1/3 of the time, and Abbadon saves 1/2 the time for a whopping 5/36 (13.8%) to wound Abbadon with his bolter. Even with two shots, its not really good odds.

 labmouse42 wrote:

Pony_law wrote:
Has the break down of Abbadon v. Papa Smurf been done? factoring combat tactics to allow Papa smurf to keep shooting his ap 2 twin linked bolter and charging abbadon? Seems like he might be a good contender.

Pappa smurf must beat Abbadon in an init check to use combat tactics.

Hes Init 5, while Abbadon it init 6. Since he must beat Abbadon, not tie him, the odds are not good that he can fall back and shoot Abbadon in the face.

Also, remember that bolter is not that great vs Abbadon.
It hits 5/6 of the time, wounds 1/3 of the time, and Abbadon saves 1/2 the time for a whopping 5/36 (13.8%) to wound Abbadon with his bolter. Even with two shots, its not really good odds.

and it then allows abby to charge and get +2 attacks, although abby will take overwatch. It also only happens if Abby beats Papa smurf, which is likely but not guarenteed.