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It still seems as if invading the EoT is useless and unlikely

1. The Tyranids develope a resistance to the Warp AND

2. They view Chaos forces coming from the EoT as a strategic threat to their consumption of the galaxy.

OR

1. The Tyranids develope a resistance to the Warp AND

2. They have consumed everything else in the galaxy AND

3. Invading the EoT is more worthwhile than just leaving for the next galaxy

Ok First off nid's can't use corrupted genes. It has been shown several times, like old one eye who's genetics is at a stop which is why they won't reconsume him. Or like Ymgaril genestealers. (Bad spelling I know) Chaos has this same effect, it messes up with genetics creating deadends. something that can harm the nid race as a whole.

As for psychic beacons, I do not believe they can tell a incoming nid force that this world has "Tough defences" It is just how big the vangaurd population on that planet is. If you have a source that suggests otherwise please tell me. Only time I know of that the nids skip is necron sleeper worlds. This is when humans don't know about the necrons sleeping below them of course.

 Shlazaor wrote:
They view Chaos forces coming from the EoT as a strategic threat to their consumption of the galaxy.

Do they even acknowledge Chaos at all for what it is, do they even see the warp?

willhman wrote:
Ok First off nid's can't use corrupted genes. It has been shown several times, like old one eye who's genetics is at a stop which is why they won't reconsume him. Or like Ymgaril genestealers. (Bad spelling I know) Chaos has this same effect, it messes up with genetics creating deadends. something that can harm the nid race as a whole.

That is a fairly good point, but if the Tyranid did assault the the Eye of Terror they would need to adapt by creating more species that would be able thrive in the warp and would have to absorb tainted Biomass. It might lead to two separate Tyranid species, one that can live and survive in the warp the other, the material.

willhman wrote:
As for psychic beacons, I do not believe they can tell a incoming nid force that this world has "Tough defences" It is just how big the vangaurd population on that planet is. If you have a source that suggests otherwise please tell me. Only time I know of that the nids skip is necron sleeper worlds. This is when humans don't know about the necrons sleeping below them of course.

I think it's determined from how the initial assault goes, how many of the lesser organisms die gets past up the chain and the Hive Mind decides the best course of action and what to deploy next.

En Excelsis wrote:

 xSPYXEx wrote:
Now, an important question.

Can 'nids even eat daemons? AFAIK daemons are basically just solidified warp energy and return to the warp when they die.

Nids are extremely powerful because even though they sustain an incredible amount of casualties, they can still eat everything that's attacking them to regain strength. But since daemons aren't really a food source, the nids would just keep getting killed and would have to recycle their dead just to make new troops.
And if nids can't eat daemons, why would they even bother attacking the EoT? Surely the few CSM living there wouldn't be worth more than, say, moving onto the next galaxy.

Yes.

The C:GK has a list of artefacts that are used by certain inquisitorial bodies. One such entry was the hellpistol, which fires fires munitions composed entirely of "demon matter" bascially what remains of a daemon's body after it is slain. This is proof enough that the daemons would be a vialbe food source for Tyranids i it ever came to that.

And, as with all things that the Tyranids consume, they will learn from it. Biovores were created after the hive first tasted Ork bimoass. Zoanthropes were created after they assimilated Eldar biomass. Genestealers are the result of them feeding on human biomass... etc. What wicked esult would come from the Tyrandids consuming a quantity of Daemon Biomass is yet to be seen.

But, ultimately it does not matter.

The warp, exists only as a result of the physical world or materium. It wishes to destroy the materium, yes, and it can even influence it just as it is influenced by it. But every single peice of the warp is made from the thoughts of the living being who inhabit real space. From the lowliest simple daemon, to the 666 named greater daemons, all the way up to the 4 ruinous powers you know as the Chaos Gods. They are all born of us.

The reason the Tyranids cast a "shadow in the warp" is because where they go, they consume all life that has thought... with no though, the warp has nothing mirror... there are no murderous intents to form bloodletters, no schemes to form the whims of Tzeentch... no hate, no lust, no greed or any other mechanism of thought than can become manifest. If the Tyranids were to consume the galaxy Chaos would cease to exist.

Given that the Tyranids have a form of genetic memory, and have consumed entire galaxies before arriving at ours... it is entirely possible that they have encountered similar warp entities in their past. They may also be aware of this and simply igore Chaos altogether kowing that once they had fed, Chaso will abate and no longer be a threat to them.

Aren't daemons just made of warp-energy made tangible? The GK weapon you mentioned would just be firing warp energy if this is the case. Furthermore, even if a daemon could be eaten, there's no guarantee that the tyranid organisms would be able to use it in the same way as bio-matter.

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 Shlazaor wrote:
They view Chaos forces coming from the EoT as a strategic threat to their consumption of the galaxy.

Do they even acknowledge Chaos at all for what it is, do they even see the warp?

willhman wrote:
Ok First off nid's can't use corrupted genes. It has been shown several times, like old one eye who's genetics is at a stop which is why they won't reconsume him. Or like Ymgaril genestealers. (Bad spelling I know) Chaos has this same effect, it messes up with genetics creating deadends. something that can harm the nid race as a whole.

That is a fairly good point, but if the Tyranid did assault the the Eye of Terror they would need to adapt by creating more species that would be able thrive in the warp and would have to absorb tainted Biomass. It might lead to two separate Tyranid species, one that can live and survive in the warp the other, the material.

willhman wrote:
As for psychic beacons, I do not believe they can tell a incoming nid force that this world has "Tough defences" It is just how big the vangaurd population on that planet is. If you have a source that suggests otherwise please tell me. Only time I know of that the nids skip is necron sleeper worlds. This is when humans don't know about the necrons sleeping below them of course.

I think it's determined from how the initial assault goes, how many of the lesser organisms die gets past up the chain and the Hive Mind decides the best course of action and what to deploy next.

To the extent that they harm the Tyranids then yes. Honestly it's not hard to believe. If Chaos in the eye of terror would be exterminated by the lack of emotion in the galaxy they would most assuredly go out of there way to inflict as much harm on the Nids as possible.

 Shlazaor wrote:


To the extent that they harm the Tyranids then yes. Honestly it's not hard to believe. If Chaos in the eye of terror would be exterminated by the lack of emotion in the galaxy they would most assuredly go out of there way to inflict as much harm on the Nids as possible.

Sorry, I miss your point. From the view point of Chaos, yeah, because they are sentient in a way like us. Tyranids, no.

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 Shlazaor wrote:


To the extent that they harm the Tyranids then yes. Honestly it's not hard to believe. If Chaos in the eye of terror would be exterminated by the lack of emotion in the galaxy they would most assuredly go out of there way to inflict as much harm on the Nids as possible.

Sorry, I miss your point. From the view point of Chaos, yeah, because they are sentient in a way like us. Tyranids, no.

I'm saying that the Tyranids will react when millions of Chaos soldiers attack them in an attempt to mantain life and therefore emotion in the universe.

It's very unlikely that they would for the reasons stated above. Also, they won't end up near the EoT for a very very very long time since they're not a warp-capable species. They're invading from the Ultima sector's fringe so it's about the furthest away from the EoT as you can get.

Additionally the Tyranids were drawn to the galaxy by the Astronomicon, so their headed for Terra, and the EoT isn't really on their radar.

Other than that it would go the same way as any other invasion, with the Nids probably winning because they don't have souls for the Daemons of the warp to feed on and the Traitor legions and their ilk have limited resources and nowhere to run.

Simply not enough biomass in the longrun imo.
Many EoT worlds are simply chunks of rock with all sorts of Daemon infested magic infused into them.
There is no actual biomass the Nids could use - plant/animal life/water/standard chemicals/hell even air is questionable there.
When Daemonkilla the Ork invaded the Warp, on one of the planets he attacked the ground was literally made of Daemons who rose up to attack him - theres little evidence to suggest other Daemon planets arent as wacky or contain any soure of usseable biomass.

On the Chaos warband worlds and Legion worlds perhaps there would be a bit more but places like Perturbos homeworld is literally just one giant fortress so most the Nids will get is ferrocrete and adamantium and its debatable if they can use that as efficently for regeneration as organic biomass.
The rest of the warband worlds may well be simply gigantic battlefields or worlds already devastated of all life/organic life from the constat fighting and wars fought amongst the Choas factions.

For me, in short,t he Nids could invade initially and probably do well but long term its unsustainable and futile.

I also dont subscribe to the mutation theory, wasnt that a small piece saying a subfleet encountered a Nurgle Hulk and got infected? Is it still cannon?
I'd assume as usual the HM would find a way to overcome such mutations even if they could occur.

I also dont subscribe to the mutation theory, wasnt that a small piece saying a subfleet encountered a Nurgle Hulk and got infected? Is it still cannon?
I'd assume as usual the HM would find a way to overcome such mutations even if they could occur.

Nids who come into contact with the corrupting effects of the Warp are purged by their parent Hive, and are not re-assimilated into its biomass. If this happens to enough Nids in a Hive Fleet, the Hive Mind fragments (locally) and that fleet falls apart.

Source on that Psi? Interesting but I dont recall reading it anywhere?

 Psienesis wrote:

I also dont subscribe to the mutation theory, wasnt that a small piece saying a subfleet encountered a Nurgle Hulk and got infected? Is it still cannon?
I'd assume as usual the HM would find a way to overcome such mutations even if they could occur.

Nids who come into contact with the corrupting effects of the Warp are purged by their parent Hive, and are not re-assimilated into its biomass. If this happens to enough Nids in a Hive Fleet, the Hive Mind fragments (locally) and that fleet falls apart.

Source?Or just personal interpretation? I think its an interesting idea, but I personally think that even if the Hive Mind purges them eventually, it would try to learn how to make other organisms more warp resistant.

Mix of both, as it is rare for anything in 40K to be spelled out clearly:

I want to say that the IW infected a Bio-Ship with the Obliterator Virus in Storm of Iron, though I might be misremembering the title of the book.

The Ymgarl Genestealers have the ability to shape-shift and some apparently mutate uncontrollably. Though details on Ymgarl are scant, this brood-type is never reabsorbed by Hive Fleets, and are, in fact, actively avoided. If their mutations are Chaos-influenced, this strongly suggests that the Hive Fleet is not equipped to deal with unplanned, Warp-tainted genetic strands.

Also, the Tyranid army, as a whole, gains no special resistance to Psychic or Sorcerer effects and attacks, whereas say, Orks gain a hard counter to a special ability of one of the Necron Lords. I want to say its Trayzn, but I don't have my Codex on hand to confirm. IIRC, this particular Necron, if used as the HQ, automatically wins initiative, except against Orks. Again, don't have my Codex with me atm, but this one Necron grants an army-wide bonus against every opponent... except Orks. Tyranids, by contrast, gain no special bonus against Chaos.

Also, while the Tyranid lack true psykers (as in, they do not channel the Warp), they do have psyker-like creatures, which opens them to the possibility of corruption (though they do not risk Perils as other Psykers do). This is analogous to the Necron's various dimension-shifting abilities and tactics... which makes them immune to detection or pursuit by most armies, except Daemons, who find these pocket dimensions and hyper-spatial realms as "new flavors of reality".

If the Tyranid were some army of a bajillion Blanks, one would expect both their rules and their fluff to reflect this... but it doesn't.

Never mind.

About the obliterator virus: Every living thing is prone to that virus, even say, Grey Knights, who are supposed to be the literal anti chaos. Tau too, even though they are of no or little interest to the chaos gods. We know nids are weak against certain virii. Didn't the ultramarines use a virus to decimate a certain fleet tendril?

As for the Ymgarl, there is no evidence that Chaos is causing these mutations. In fact, is Ymgarl even close to any major chaos point in that region? Not that this really matters of course, but I simply do not believe the mutations to be chaotic in nature (yeah ok, Tzeentch causes all change, whatever), but rather the natural evolution of genestealers adapting to their environment for maximum effect.

I don't quite understand the relevance of the necrons here. The orks gain a hard counter because of their lack of strategy, against which Trazyn's superiority is useless. That doesn't have anything to do with chaos.

I agree that all living creatures, and perhaps even inert matter can be corrupted by the warp, but who's to say that the Hive Mind wouldn't find a way to evolve around this? Or at least evolve a way to increase resistance. I mean, they already hibernated through the intergalactic void, a fear considered impossible by the Imperium, exactly like surviving unprotected in the warp...

Also: shadow in the warp. It's been discussed before and multiple theories have been put forward including some in this thread. I know it's not described as being like a massive Blank or anything, but rather either a tremendous presence or a swarm of countless smaller presences forming a whole (see the swarm of locusts metaphor someone used in this thread). You can't deny that the Shadow in the Warp definitely affects chaos in ways nothing else does, and chaos doesn't like it. And I'd say, while this rule is not specifically pointed at chaos, it may have a greater effect when a 6th ed codex comes out. Who knows, perhaps as orks are singled out by the necrons, chaos will be singled out by the nids according to some special rule?

I just keep thinking of the movie Evolution.

The scene where the dragon-looking things are all dying, except for one who takes off and attacks a mall because it can breathe oxygen.

I feel like the Tyranids would do that same sort of thing with gaunts until it figured out how to exist in the immaterium; then it would extend that to the rest of the Hive Fleet.

I don't quite understand the relevance of the necrons here. The orks gain a hard counter because of their lack of strategy, against which Trazyn's superiority is useless. That doesn't have anything to do with chaos.

It has nothing at all to do with Chaos. It's used as an illustrative point that shows that, if a given Army has a built-in hard counter (one might say an immunity) to a trait or tactic of another Army, the table-top rules reflect that. The Tyranids currently have no such rule, and nothing in their history suggests that they have any especial immunity to Chaos taint. What will or won't be added in a future publication has no real bearing, because that's simple guesswork.

I think that we need to bring forth some hard and soft facts in one place on those we all can agree and further speculate from them.

As it seems now, Tyranids would have little to no reason to invade Eye of Terror. Even if Hive mind manages to out-evolve warp then it may consider "investing" its biomass for continuous evolvement. I believe that even tyranids psykers have to be intelligent and independent in order to manipulate warp's energies thus creating a extremely powerful rogue element in hive mind arsenal.


Also, there are some soft proof that tyranids may be created by chaos gods in other universe or reckless scientists (like humans created an unshackled AI at the end of their dark age of technology, but with an opposite outcome of those wars, tyranids were set free).


''I don't know where they come from. It seems highly unlikely that they evolved naturally into what they are now - impossible, given what we know about evolution. Perhaps they are some kind of bioweapon, created millennia ago by madmen for some long-forgotten war. If so, I suspect that their creators soon came to regret their creation. Or perhaps they come straight from the warp. Possibly the Lords of Chaos themselves cast them out because they were too unpleasant.''


-Space Hulk (Board Game), 1989 (First Edition), Missions and Background book/lexicanum

That's the thing about 40K, hard facts are hard to come by, as there's not really an established "canon". We're left with suggestions, inferences, interpretations and flat-out guesswork based on rumors, hearsay, in-universe documents drafted light-years and centuries away from events, and contradictory eye-witness reports.

Now the reason that the nids don't eat ymgaril genestealers is not because of chaos but because of the random mutations that their genetics cause, also because of the corruption that is in their genetics. The same thing applies to Chaos warped flesh, it is completly riddled with genetic flaws that would harm the nid race as a whole, so they don't eat it because of the same thing mentioned with the ymgaril genestealers. It's not about evolving around chaos it is about chaos altered flesh is bad genetics this is random and as such has no way of being of use to the Hive mind.

How can you adapt to something that is pure randomenss? If I recall the warp can not be comprehended, plus we do not know anything in the 40k universe that can go through the warp without being affected in someway even csm have bad problems from their ships to themselves, that is what why the Iom think no one can survive in the warp except Draigo who is ridicules fluff that literally makes Orks seem sane...

Mix of both, as it is rare for anything in 40K to be spelled out clearly:

I want to say that the IW infected a Bio-Ship with the Obliterator Virus in Storm of Iron, though I might be misremembering the title of the book.

The Ymgarl Genestealers have the ability to shape-shift and some apparently mutate uncontrollably. Though details on Ymgarl are scant, this brood-type is never reabsorbed by Hive Fleets, and are, in fact, actively avoided. If their mutations are Chaos-influenced, this strongly suggests that the Hive Fleet is not equipped to deal with unplanned, Warp-tainted genetic strands.

Also, the Tyranid army, as a whole, gains no special resistance to Psychic or Sorcerer effects and attacks, whereas say, Orks gain a hard counter to a special ability of one of the Necron Lords. I want to say its Trayzn, but I don't have my Codex on hand to confirm. IIRC, this particular Necron, if used as the HQ, automatically wins initiative, except against Orks. Again, don't have my Codex with me atm, but this one Necron grants an army-wide bonus against every opponent... except Orks. Tyranids, by contrast, gain no special bonus against Chaos.

Also, while the Tyranid lack true psykers (as in, they do not channel the Warp), they do have psyker-like creatures, which opens them to the possibility of corruption (though they do not risk Perils as other Psykers do). This is analogous to the Necron's various dimension-shifting abilities and tactics... which makes them immune to detection or pursuit by most armies, except Daemons, who find these pocket dimensions and hyper-spatial realms as "new flavors of reality".

If the Tyranid were some army of a bajillion Blanks, one would expect both their rules and their fluff to reflect this... but it doesn't.

Pure waffle imho :
1. there is no "mix of both" - you either have GW cannon to back this up or not.
There is no cannon that we have read that splinters a Hive Fleet due to contagion - you have to confirm or deny. End.

That's the thing about 40K, hard facts are hard to come by, as there's not really an established "canon". We're left with suggestions, inferences, interpretations and flat-out guesswork based on rumors, hearsay, in-universe documents drafted light-years and centuries away from events, and contradictory eye-witness reports.

Agreed - to a point.
However, Most of us here (and in the vast other 40k forums) will argue though, that unless its cannon and or written by GW - it aint cannon.

Query: one can argue extrapolation and conjecture and ideas but unless the (good/bad/ugly/inept) GW cannon it; ideas like "Hive fleets splinter when corrupt" Etc. is fanism and frankly nonsense in the realm of what we know and accept.

Again Psi:
Source or stop the hypotethsis, thanks.

Oh yeah almost forgot, the Ultramarines did use a virus, but it was only able to work because the bio-engineered it from a lictor's body that was from the first wave, so had the original genome in it. Plus they had administre it directly to the Norn queen in the main hive ship to have the effect wanted.

willhman wrote:
Oh yeah almost forgot, the Ultramarines did use a virus, but it was only able to work because the bio-engineered it from a lictor's body that was from the first wave, so had the original genome in it. Plus they had administre it directly to the Norn queen in the main hive ship to have the effect wanted.

No-one has been able to do it since, either. As with all anti-Tyranid strategies, if it's used too often then the Hive Fleets work out a counter and suddenly your superweapon is a dud. It's very Borg.

Xyptc wrote:

willhman wrote:
Oh yeah almost forgot, the Ultramarines did use a virus, but it was only able to work because the bio-engineered it from a lictor's body that was from the first wave, so had the original genome in it. Plus they had administre it directly to the Norn queen in the main hive ship to have the effect wanted.

No-one has been able to do it since, either. As with all anti-Tyranid strategies, if it's used too often then the Hive Fleets work out a counter and suddenly your superweapon is a dud. It's very Borg.

If you don't count the Dow 2 Games, but even then it wasn't on the scale of the Um's were it made the nid's attack each other to survive, were in the Dow 2 games it just destroyed the leader and poisened the main hive ship.

 Psienesis wrote:
That's the thing about 40K, hard facts are hard to come by, as there's not really an established "canon". We're left with suggestions, inferences, interpretations and flat-out guesswork based on rumors, hearsay, in-universe documents drafted light-years and centuries away from events, and contradictory eye-witness reports.

Agree. Problem with 40k is that it lacks some hard facts about itself. But on the other hand, we all can agree that codexs make a reliable source for cannon. Second, 40k books also can be used as cannon, of course first we need to agree which books can be trusted and which cannot. After that, fan debates offers quite reliable source of fluff. I mean, fans who know that they are talking about... Warhammer's lore evolved far past the point there GW could simply point out that's cannon and that's not. Or will you accept this...if tommorow GW announces that Imperium, TAU and Eldar are forming an permanent alliance and Chaos, Dark Eldar and Orks are doing their own coalition?
As it's now, we basically talk about same thing over and over again, making it confusing and wasting our time. By bringing all that we need to know about tyranids, warp and chaos to one place we could safely decide the possibility of such action. Now, we just slowly going off-topic without reaching any conclusion.


There was a lot of good points raised like:
-

How can you adapt to something that is pure randomenss? If I recall the warp can not be comprehended, plus we do not know anything in the 40k universe that can go through the warp without being affected in someway even csm have bad problems from their ships to themselves

It lacks sources, but I agree with him and I believe that we could find some soft proof for it. For example, in "Mechanicus" novel there are hints that warp do not follow rules. At some point, book hints that by enchanting your weapons by the power of warp removes the need to obey physics. Even more, you can set physics to your needs instead of merely following it. Also, warp enchanted life eater virus were able to bypass impossible barriers for him.
I think that it's safe to say that warp is, in fact, is random. It's more like art, not science. Only artist may fully understood it while scientist can only skim through its surface. It's why I believe in order for Tyranids out-evolve warp is necessary free from Hive Mind psykers. To evolve such psyker out of current knowledge would be a long trial and error process for Tyranids. It would be better to create some mind controling parasits like Q'orl have did and salvage alien tech to transport the swarm.


-

Many EoT worlds are simply chunks of rock with all sorts of Daemon infested magic infused into them. Many EoT worlds are simply chunks of rock with all sorts of Daemon infested magic infused into them.There is no actual biomass the Nids could use - plant/animal life/water/standard chemicals/hell even air is questionable there.
When Daemonkilla the Ork invaded the Warp, on one of the planets he attacked the ground was literally made of Daemons who rose up to attack him - theres little evidence to suggest other Daemon planets arent as wacky or contain any soure of usseable biomass.

Indeed. In book "Death sky, black sun" deamon world is nothing, but rock, factories and fortresses and as we all know it, Tyranids rally heavily on their biomass to survive as Inquisitor Kryptman have clearly showed. It's safe to say that all deamon worlds are light on biomass thus making Tyranids to loose biomass heavily in constant warfare with chaos. Although, I really doubt that deamon worlds are deadly like that. There was probably others factors playing there.

Honestly? Daemons win. No question.

To begin with, the forces of Chaos are technically the strongest single faction in the setting. The only reasons they haven't already trounced everyone else is because they spend most of their time fighting amongst themselves and have a very hard time getting into and staying in the mortal realm.

Furthermore, the primary advantage of the Tyranids is their ability to strengthen themselves on the biomass of their enemies (which won't work against Daemons for obvious reasons).

Throw in the fact that Daemons are more powerful in the warp than in realspace, and a Tyranid Hive Fleet invading the Eye of Terror would have no hope of victory.

Of course, the idea of Tyranids beating Daemons on their home turf is still nowhere near as silly as the idea of Tyranids actually invading the Eye of Terror. What will they invade next? Lifeless tomb worlds? Barren asteroids? A black hole?

 xSPYXEx wrote:
Now, an important question.

Can 'nids even eat daemons? AFAIK daemons are basically just solidified warp energy and return to the warp when they die.

Actually, i've been wondering. what happens if you kill a daemon in the Warp? Does it go regenerate somewhere else, or does it scream and is subsequently erased from creation? Also, how would Tyranids react to Necrons? While I'm at it, how would the Chaos gods react if the Necrons somehow got in the Warp (most likely through the EoT)? (Final question) Just wondering, did Tzeentch see the Necrons resurrection, or if he even knew of them at all, and when they woke up, he just went ? you gotta think about this stuff.

Edit: just answer whatever you can. I'm not asking you to give me all the answers about everything (except how to play the game lol)

reaper with no name wrote:

Of course, the idea of Tyranids beating Daemons on their home turf is still nowhere near as silly as the idea of Tyranids actually invading the Eye of Terror. What will they invade next? Lifeless tomb worlds? Barren asteroids? A black hole?

Not all hypothetical questions must be taken seriously. This is simple that if scenario.



I will assume a liberty of setting conclusion to this topic who had burned out.

It's highly unlikely that Hive Mind would decide to attack Eye of Terror. While we confused warp storms with warp rifts, it's still highly unstable place there barriers from aether and real space are thin due extensive use of magic and probably, huge storms in Empyrean. Due to that, forces of chaos will be able to call vast reserves of deamonic troops into the war and by them, engage Great Devourer in bloody and long war of attrition. More than that, the swarm will be denied of any biomass. There are simply non to very little biomass are available on deamon worlds (probably all worlds can be considered as deamon worlds in Eye of Terror). Enemy troops provide extremely inefficient way of replenishing looses thus starving a Hive Mind. While I can point out that Kryptman's revolutionary kind of warfare was highly successful I cannot remember if there was any others incidents there the swarm would starve due to extensive fighting on light on biomass world. In any way, I think it's safe to state that Tyranids war-machine relies heavily on its biomass and it would loose its biomass either way. It's why I think that only after devouring entire galaxy Hive Mind might consider to invests some of its newly gain power for continues evolvement of the swarm. Sadly, this possibility isn't exactly most probable due to the very nature of Devourer. All w40k fluff that I have read about tyranids indicates that their only goal in life is consumption of bio-matter. Our apocalyptic battle between chaos and tyranids might only involve tyranids scouting armies trying to evaluate its opposition strength as we have seen in "Warriors of Ultramar" novel.


While chaos posses an impressive ground defenses, we didn't said anything about chaos naval forces. Due to immense numbers of Great Devourer's forces, chaos might be very easily out-gunned and destroyed in space battles leaving planet to be bombarded at will. (I assume that Tyranids had consuming all remaining bio-matter without significant loss). Ensuring that space supremacy are in Tyranids hands, I can imagine how Tyranids might eventually destroying all chaos presence in material universe.


Chaos might in-fact prove a foe which cannot be completely out-evolved due to nature of psyker's powers. While there is no doubt that tyranids will out-evolve conventional means of chaos warfare there is no theoretical possibility to out-evolve warp's effects on flesh without help of psykers. The Great Devourer do posses their own kind of psychic users which might evolve to protect swarm's organisms from negative effects to warps energies exposure, but if that fails, then there could be no victory to tyranids. Clever usage of magic will simply demolish any attempt of effective defense or attack from tyranids. Creation of independent sub-species is disliked by Hive Mind. Also, creation process is long trial and error journey in which, many extremely dangerous and uncontrolable individuals might be created. On top of that, it's unlikely that tyranids would encounter any usable DNA at that point, the biggest part of that contributes very nature of deamons essence which probably cannot be read.

 Ratius wrote:

Mix of both, as it is rare for anything in 40K to be spelled out clearly:

I want to say that the IW infected a Bio-Ship with the Obliterator Virus in Storm of Iron, though I might be misremembering the title of the book.

The Ymgarl Genestealers have the ability to shape-shift and some apparently mutate uncontrollably. Though details on Ymgarl are scant, this brood-type is never reabsorbed by Hive Fleets, and are, in fact, actively avoided. If their mutations are Chaos-influenced, this strongly suggests that the Hive Fleet is not equipped to deal with unplanned, Warp-tainted genetic strands.

Also, the Tyranid army, as a whole, gains no special resistance to Psychic or Sorcerer effects and attacks, whereas say, Orks gain a hard counter to a special ability of one of the Necron Lords. I want to say its Trayzn, but I don't have my Codex on hand to confirm. IIRC, this particular Necron, if used as the HQ, automatically wins initiative, except against Orks. Again, don't have my Codex with me atm, but this one Necron grants an army-wide bonus against every opponent... except Orks. Tyranids, by contrast, gain no special bonus against Chaos.

Also, while the Tyranid lack true psykers (as in, they do not channel the Warp), they do have psyker-like creatures, which opens them to the possibility of corruption (though they do not risk Perils as other Psykers do). This is analogous to the Necron's various dimension-shifting abilities and tactics... which makes them immune to detection or pursuit by most armies, except Daemons, who find these pocket dimensions and hyper-spatial realms as "new flavors of reality".

If the Tyranid were some army of a bajillion Blanks, one would expect both their rules and their fluff to reflect this... but it doesn't.

Pure waffle imho :
1. there is no "mix of both" - you either have GW cannon to back this up or not.
There is no cannon that we have read that splinters a Hive Fleet due to contagion - you have to confirm or deny. End.

That's the thing about 40K, hard facts are hard to come by, as there's not really an established "canon". We're left with suggestions, inferences, interpretations and flat-out guesswork based on rumors, hearsay, in-universe documents drafted light-years and centuries away from events, and contradictory eye-witness reports.

Agreed - to a point.
However, Most of us here (and in the vast other 40k forums) will argue though, that unless its cannon and or written by GW - it aint cannon.

Query: one can argue extrapolation and conjecture and ideas but unless the (good/bad/ugly/inept) GW cannon it; ideas like "Hive fleets splinter when corrupt" Etc. is fanism and frankly nonsense in the realm of what we know and accept.

Again Psi:
Source or stop the hypotethsis, thanks.

It's spelled "canon". 40K doesn't have one. What fans agree or disagree on is the purpose of forums such as these. However, excepting relatively few cases, there are no "right" or "wrong" answers, as there are no answers to these questions. If you believe that majority consensus makes canon, I invite you to browse the YMDC forums.

There is no cannon that we have read that splinters a Hive Fleet due to contagion - you have to confirm or deny. End.

We have evidence that other sentient societies splinter and fracture when the corruption of Chaos spreads through them (see also: Plague of Unbelief, The Badab War, The Horus Heresy, The Fall of the Eldar). As we have no evidence to suggest that Tyranids are immune to the corrupting effects of Chaos, and plenty of evidence indicating that the Tyranid bio-forms are reliant on their Synapse Creatures, and the Hive Mind, as a whole, is dependent on each individual member of the swarm to exist, we can extrapolate that the results will be as previously established. It would be "fanism", and utter groxgak, to assume the Tyranids are insectoid GK, and utterly immune to Chaos.

Are they going to go running about, hissing "For the Dark Gods!" and painting eight-pointed stars on everything? No, not the least of which reasons being because most Tyranid lack thumbs, but also because once cut-off from the Hive Mind, the Tyranid bio-form falls back on Instinctive Behavior, which is usually to attack and kill anything near it, including other Tyranids. If the Hive Mind is replaced by another controlling intellect? Well, this is getting into speculation here... but, then again, the entire forum is speculation, in the main.

Extrapolate: transitive verb: to infer (values of a variable in an unobserved interval) from values within an already observed interval

Again, as there is no such thing as a 40K canon, and many (most?) areas are left (purposefully) vague, we are left to extrapolate data that does not exist in a Codex, Imperial Armour volume, White Dwarf issue, or other GW-published source. A Black Library novel is, like the Expanded Universe of Star Wars, open to artistic license and authorial discretion as to how the contents within each individual novel or story fits in with the information presented in the official materials. As we have seen in the case of Space Marines, this is often "not very well". In a novel by one of the most-lauded BL authors, a squad of Chaos Space Marines is wiped out, to a man, by half-a-dozen Guardsmen with las-guns and a feral tribal society carrying crossbows. In another novel, by the same author, a Space Marine is described as having a pinky finger "the size and shape of an Arbiter's truncheon". Even within the works of the same author, consistency is not a requirement.