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The only thing that is useful is effectiveness. The only benefit to efficiency is to be able to have a few points left over to cram in more guns (read: more effectiveness). Efficiency isn't, in itself a virtue, it's merely a means to an end. The end being more overall killing power.

A dreadknight costs a lot, but gives you a lot of killing power. A hellhound costs less, but gives you even less killing power than even its reduced price allows. Meanwhile, you would get more killing power out of hellhound alternatives than you would from its points in hellhounds.

Yes, that does reference efficiency, but it's for the purpose of talking about effectiveness.

 Ailaros wrote:
The only thing that is useful is effectiveness. The only benefit to efficiency is to be able to have a few points left over to cram in more guns (read: more effectiveness). Efficiency isn't, in itself a virtue, it's merely a means to an end. The end being more overall killing power.

A dreadknight costs a lot, but gives you a lot of killing power. A hellhound costs less, but gives you even less killing power than even its reduced price allows. Meanwhile, you would get more killing power out of hellhound alternatives than you would from its points in hellhounds.

Yes, that does reference efficiency, but it's for the purpose of talking about effectiveness.

Except you are quantifying efficiency by your own yard stick and not being very objective. Your also comparing apples to oranges as these are separate armies released at different time, hence why people were rating it to the "insert flier here". I will take a hellhound over a DK if I need to burn through poisoned gaunts for example as the hellhound does it without risk in return unlike the more expensive DK. You also get two HH for the cost of one DK with a teleporter.

Martel732 wrote:
Everything that was said about the hell hound in this thread applies to the Baal with a flamestorm cannon. Now it doesn't have to compete against a fantastic flier in this slot, but there are plenty of other BA fast attack choices that have way better utility in 6th. Makes me kinda sad; I had fun with the fast flame tank in 5th.

Av:13 and ap3 (IIRC) really make the Baal stand out compared to the hellhound. There's nothing in the BA codex that fills the baal's niché better than the baal. I don't know how many points the baal costs, but it's better than the hellhound. Although I still wouldn't use it if it was in the IG codex.

It's not AV 13 for long. As it approaches the enemy to use the flamer, the AV 11 sides get exposed quickly. It's a suicide tank in an army that can't afford to suicide anything.

 Ailaros wrote:
The only thing that is useful is effectiveness. The only benefit to efficiency is to be able to have a few points left over to cram in more guns (read: more effectiveness). Efficiency isn't, in itself a virtue, it's merely a means to an end. The end being more overall killing power.

A dreadknight costs a lot, but gives you a lot of killing power. A hellhound costs less, but gives you even less killing power than even its reduced price allows. Meanwhile, you would get more killing power out of hellhound alternatives than you would from its points in hellhounds.

Yes, that does reference efficiency, but it's for the purpose of talking about effectiveness.

So... efficiency is good when it increase effectiveness? Just like the definition says it does!

We should really have a new topic to debate, this one's getting old.

Martel732 wrote:
It's not AV 13 for long. As it approaches the enemy to use the flamer, the AV 11 sides get exposed quickly. It's a suicide tank in an army that can't afford to suicide anything.

Well yeah it exposes its side if you don't back it up with razorbacks and vidicators. I've never seen a Baal on its own charging me. I've seen the AV:13 wall a lot; it's pretty worrisome. It's hard to pull off in smaller games though, so it's not a reliable tactic <1750pts.

Terrain also breaks up AV 13 walls. But it's something I suppose.

I personally use Dreadknights armed with only a Heavy Incinerator (160pts). These units die to mass fire and plasma usually with some lascannons thrown in.

It takes approximately 14 BS4 plasma gun shots to kill a DK. Less once you add in the bolters and other weapons from the squads those plasma guns are in.

A plasma gun will kill a hellhound 3.6% of the time. A lascannon is not much better honestly bringing the total up to 10%. It's slightly easier to strip hull points but not as easy as it is to wound and have a GK fail his save to less than St6 weapons (weapons a hellhound is immune to).

There is a 30 point difference in their costs and yes, a DK can brawl but a DK also can't lay the template down well on turn one like a hellhound.

Personally, I've found my fast attack to look something like this in every non-chaos allied army I build:

-Vendetta
-Vendetta
-2 Hellhounds

In one force org I've got massive anti-infantry and solid AA & AT. All for 520pts (for 28% of an 1850 list).

It's far from useless. Torrent weapons are amongst the best weapons in the game right now. The ability to take two in a squadron is insane.

Without looking at the other units i've found the hellhounds gained a good boost against my regular necron opponant as the warrior is now SV4. That little change meant my hellhounds became viable. I've not used them much before because of that. I'd still be weary about taking them to my FLGS. The hellhound, in my eyes, should support a mechanized advance. That said, the chimera can pour out firepower already. The best thing that plays in the hellhounds favor is the fact that you can aim the template and it is auto-hit. This means that each shot will generally hit more models per shot than most other weapons. Between it's strength, high hit ratio and decent ap, I think it's worth consideration.

I've not played HHs in 6th yet, but I found them pretty underwhelming in 5th, although I play in a MEQ heavy meta.

The only variant I have had any luck with was the Banewolf. I ran two at one point, used Creed to give them outflank then rolled them in somewhere nasty.
The ability to move 12", fire their (classes as defensive!) weapon and the hull heavy flamer, and then be hit in CC only on 6's by whatever survived worked quite well. Worst case they at least soaked up a lot more than their points cost in firepower for a turn and forced my opponent to move his units to ensure they died. (Tank shocking through a unit with one tank to bunch up a unit then dropping the gas template of AP3 poisoned instadeath with the other proved particularly amusing at times)

I usually play fluffy, but I just can't see a place for any of the HH variants in a competitive IG list, they don't really fit in with the current gun-line / leafblower / air-cav / power-ally-blob meta lists (or have 'better' alternatives)

Anyone else amused that 'He Who Scoffs At Templates' had a change of heart?

But anyway:

Hell Hounds are a niche unit. They're not the everything unit people pine for, which is a rather nice alternative than spamming Vendettas simply because everyone knows they're underpriced...

You don't build your list around it; more over, its there if you have the points/desire for its strengths: Fast, Outflanking Anti-Infantry Vehicle that had a ranged template.

The only reason everything gets ignored in the FA slot is because the Vendetta is drastically underpriced for what it does...

Who the hell scoffs at templates? Not rolling to hit has always been awesome sauce. Ignoring cover is an extra bonus. That's two mechanics that templates just give the middle finger to.

 KplKeegan wrote:
Anyone else amused that 'He Who Scoffs At Templates' had a change of heart?

No one has scoffed at the hellhound's template weapon. Maybe you should look at the responses.

Hell Hounds are a niche unit. They're not the everything unit people pine for, which is a rather nice alternative than spamming Vendettas simply because everyone knows they're underpriced...

The thing is, it's a niché unit, that can have its niche filled by better alternatives which can also function as multi-role units. Griffons can do anti-infantry for cheaper, and act as snipers. Manticores do anti-infantry better, act as snipers and are great anti-tank.

You don't build your list around it; more over, its there if you have the points/desire for its strengths: Fast, Outflanking Anti-Infantry Vehicle that had a ranged template.

It's not outflanking. That would make it a slightly different story.

The only reason everything gets ignored in the FA slot is because the Vendetta is drastically underpriced for what it does...

Also there is nothing else in the codex that does what the vendetta does. Show me a unit that is reliable anti-air (hydras suck pretty hard), decent anti-tank and can transport scoring units making them almost invulnerable until they need to clear something off an objective.
It can't be done. The hellhound does one thing. It's good at that one thing, but there are multi-role units that do it as well, or if not, better.

I have played a 2k list that was all mech vets with plasma and autocannons teams and melta guys with demos 3 vendettas, two russes and two hell hounds squadroned. The hell hounds did their job exceptionally well making a mockery of my opponents hellions and in turn clearing that side of the board so I could relax sit back and watch my castle melt everything while my vendettas took out his ravagers. Only thing I found was you must squadron them the single template is good but works much better in twos.

 Daedricbob wrote:
I've not played HHs in 6th yet, but I found them pretty underwhelming in 5th, although I play in a MEQ heavy meta.

The only variant I have had any luck with was the Banewolf. I ran two at one point, used Creed to give them outflank then rolled them in somewhere nasty.
The ability to move 12", fire their (classes as defensive!) weapon and the hull heavy flamer, and then be hit in CC only on 6's by whatever survived worked quite well. Worst case they at least soaked up a lot more than their points cost in firepower for a turn and forced my opponent to move his units to ensure they died. (Tank shocking through a unit with one tank to bunch up a unit then dropping the gas template of AP3 poisoned instadeath with the other proved particularly amusing at times)

I usually play fluffy, but I just can't see a place for any of the HH variants in a competitive IG list, they don't really fit in with the current gun-line / leafblower / air-cav / power-ally-blob meta lists (or have 'better' alternatives)

I have a nicely built (glued) and very well painted Banewolf, and I have been thinking a lot about how I should use it properly now in 6th. I used it to great effect a few times in 5th edition, but I haven't had any luck with it in 6th so far. The thing is that vehicles are always at least hit on a 3+ in close combat now, so you have to make sure that it kills off any models that can hurt it. The biggest drawback to it is that it costs so many points with a dozer blade and smoke launchers, it costs about the same as a stock LRBT. It does draw a gakload of fire, but the thing is that you almost never can get a better coversave than 5+ for it, nomatter what you do.

Hellhounds are amazing against infantry, and under-rated against MEQ.

Just remember to mvoe and fire, move and fire. They can be an awesome part of a wall of AV.

The problem with Banewolves is that the marines that you want it to kill are usually capable of taking out an AV 12 vehicles. Even a tactical squad with meltagun and power fist will do the job.

 BryllCream wrote:
Hellhounds are amazing against infantry, and under-rated against MEQ.

Just remember to mvoe and fire, move and fire. They can be an awesome part of a wall of AV.

The problem with Banewolves is that the marines that you want it to kill are usually capable of taking out an AV 12 vehicles. Even a tactical squad with meltagun and power fist will do the job.

Exactly, that is why you want to make sure that the Bane Wolf either completely finishes off the squad, or at least kills off the sergeant and special weapon.