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More Dakka wrote:... and have a spare 130 to throw around, you know what I mean.

Yeah, I'm starting to wonder if its just an awkward points filler unit. Something that better list building skills could help you avoid having to take.

lizardwolf19 wrote:Don't forget, the hellhound can outflank.

Except it can't, not having scouts.

If it did, then I'd agree that this would be a genuine reason to take them.

 Ailaros wrote:

More Dakka wrote:... and have a spare 130 to throw around, you know what I mean.

Yeah, I'm starting to wonder if its just an awkward points filler unit. Something that better list building skills could help you avoid having to take.

lizardwolf19 wrote:Don't forget, the hellhound can outflank.

Except it can't, not having scouts.

If it did, then I'd agree that this would be a genuine reason to take them.

Wow my apologies, I wasn't aware that had changed. Could have sworn it used to be able to outflank or something like that. Oh well, still fun to burn things!

 labmouse42 wrote:

 schadenfreude wrote:
3 problems with the hell hound

#1: Same force org as the vendetta
#2: See #1
#3: See #2

I have a prediction for you all ladies and gentlemen.
The supplement "Death from the Skies" will be released Feb 16th. It will have an updated cost of the Vendetta at 190 points.
At that point, the hellhound will seem like a more attractive option.



As a side note, the amount of QQ coming from IG players will be great rivers of tears.

Unfortunetly you probably will not see a points change for any existing flyer in that book. Reason is that the Death from the Skies will be a supplement to the 40k game. Imagine if you walk into a store not having purchased this book and a player presents you with their shiny new Eldar Flyer. Not too big of a problem, he explains its rules and you both get down to gaming. Now imagine that same player looking at your army and informing you that your army is now over points because in his book the Flyer for your army has changed points. Full Stop. You not likely to appreciate that.

GW does not adjust points for units that have gotten better/worse/overcosted/undercosted..etc Imagine all the units that would need their points cost adjusted because of 6thed rule changes. That stuff is best handled in new Codexes rather than in supplemental books.

Vendetta is undercosted but not by as much as people think. A better price would probably be around 150-160 points max. That wll be handled in the next IG Codex, 2014-15.

 PipeAlley wrote:

 labmouse42 wrote:

 schadenfreude wrote:
3 problems with the hell hound

#1: Same force org as the vendetta
#2: See #1
#3: See #2

I have a prediction for you all ladies and gentlemen.
The supplement "Death from the Skies" will be released Feb 16th. It will have an updated cost of the Vendetta at 190 points.
At that point, the hellhound will seem like a more attractive option.



As a side note, the amount of QQ coming from IG players will be great rivers of tears.

Good. Vendettas were underpriced hell in 5th, in 6th they're almost reaching Space Marine level of lameness.

If GW is going to club the Vendetta like a baby seal with the nerfbat I would expect it's AV value to drop to 11. It's not a heavy flyer.

lizardwolf19 wrote:

Don't forget, the hellhound can outflank.

How? Did they add Scout to it somewhere? It's not on the codex entry.

I roll a couple of HH with a couple Demolishers behind them. Provides cover.

An MEQ army will ignore the HHs, and aim for my Demolishers, allowing the HHs to block lanes and set stuff on fire for a while.

A non-MEQ army will try to destroy the HH as fast as possible, getting hit by Demolishers in the process.

I play ABG, but I do pretty much the same thing with the normal IG 'dex.

 schadenfreude wrote:

 PipeAlley wrote:

 labmouse42 wrote:

 schadenfreude wrote:
3 problems with the hell hound

#1: Same force org as the vendetta
#2: See #1
#3: See #2

I have a prediction for you all ladies and gentlemen.
The supplement "Death from the Skies" will be released Feb 16th. It will have an updated cost of the Vendetta at 190 points.
At that point, the hellhound will seem like a more attractive option.



As a side note, the amount of QQ coming from IG players will be great rivers of tears.

Good. Vendettas were underpriced hell in 5th, in 6th they're almost reaching Space Marine level of lameness.

If GW is going to club the Vendetta like a baby seal with the nerfbat I would expect it's AV value to drop to 11. It's not a heavy flyer.

PG. 56 IG Codex: "If Valkyries are attached to ground forces of any extended duration of time, the armor plating of the aircraft are commonly reinforced....

The Vend/Valk all come with Extra Armor standard.....

What about the silver lining being 'take it because it looks cool' ? Sometimes being cool is better then being chessy.

 KingmanHighborn wrote:
What about the silver lining being 'take it because it looks cool' ? Sometimes being cool is better then being chessy.

Not to mention that a tank that is essentially a giant gas can is extremely manly.

 KingmanHighborn wrote:
What about the silver lining being 'take it because it looks cool' ? Sometimes being cool is better then being chessy.

Because this is the tactics forum, not the pretty looking model forum. Oh and good =/= "chessy"

I've honestly never liked the Hellhound, even before the Vendetta came into existence. It's just in such an awkward spot, where it excels at one thing that other units are just better at. Its niche is filled unfortunately, and it doesn't have the durability to warrant its inclusion in a list.

 Hedkrakka wrote:

lizardwolf19 wrote:

Don't forget, the hellhound can outflank.

How? Did they add Scout to it somewhere? It's not on the codex entry.

Ailaros corrected me a few posts back, you're both correct, they cannot outflank. Not sure why I thought they could...

 Ailaros wrote:

More Dakka wrote:... and have a spare 130 to throw around, you know what I mean.

Yeah, I'm starting to wonder if its just an awkward points filler unit. Something that better list building skills could help you avoid having to take.

lol, I hope that wasn't a snipe.

When I write up armor heavy lists I do tend to have around 130 extra points (and have the 2nd ed model), but aside from that it does serve a purpose.

Like I said, if you're looking for the ultimate tournament beatstick look elsewhere, if you're looking for something different and decent at what it does it's a good option.

From my own experience it seems to be one of those models that needs to be taken in multiples. That sounds dumb coming from a codex that relies on taking multiples of unit x, but the hellhound stands out above the rest in requiring more than one on the table to do what you want them to do.
I think every time I have taken just one hellhound it was only to shoot off it's template once before being blown up by something or other compared to a single russ or vendetta which can take a good deal of fire before taking damage.

That said, you could technically do an outflank, albeit a pseudo one (no I'm not talking Creed here). Outfit them with some smoke and run them up the side turn 1. Pop the smoke and then on turn 2 run them up another 12 and you've kind of got the effect of having outflanked someone. Or at least you've forced your opponent to move towards or away in your favor.

But it does free up your heavy slots if you don't want to have to take the eradicator or colossus. Maybe you'd rather take the manticore, vanquisher, or w/e, and you are left without your anti-cover aoe unit. That is where the hellhound comes in I suppose. It competes with a slot for the vendetta for sure, but you've got three slots so reserving one slot for 2-3 hellhounds won't kill your vendettas' ability to do well.

As for the math, that's a little hard when taking the hellhound into account. Whenever I have taken it, it was entirely dependent on the situation and deployment. It is one of those units that will benefit from deploying second for sure and being backed up by a lot more armor. I could see a list of hellhounds and russes being very effective.

 A GumyBear wrote:
HH's are just those SnG's type of units that are fun for a fire ouchy burn burn type of army

just like every other codex they have a few useless things in their dex that people try to make use of but in the end other things will just out preform it

ex. SM Whirlwind, find a use for that in a competitive environment and you are the most tactical genius of a lifetime

I use whirlwinds in most of my all comers lists. They are cheap, cause pinning, and can ignore cover. I usually can't afford a 2nd auto/las because I have to bring the stupid stormraven for anti-flier duty, so I bring this as the third heavy. ANd BA whirlwinds can move 12" and still fire.

Oh one more thing, some of us can't afford or seem to trade enough, to get even one Valk, let alone a Vendetta, so if we want to take Fast Attack stuff it's Hounds, Sentinels, or Rough Riders. I.E. the stuff the rich boys don't want. (slight joke.) Just have to get by. Plus I play on some small boards (often 4'x4' or 6'x4' so...I'm close to begin with.)

 KingmanHighborn wrote:
Oh one more thing, some of us can't afford or seem to trade enough, to get even one Valk, let alone a Vendetta, so if we want to take Fast Attack stuff it's Hounds, Sentinels, or Rough Riders. I.E. the stuff the rich boys don't want. (slight joke.) Just have to get by. Plus I play on some small boards (often 4'x4' or 6'x4' so...I'm close to begin with.)

Then you lack creativity or don't bother to put in effort. I am far from well off, but I have 3 fliers. All of them I got from eBay in vastly differing conditions. Two required a large amount of fixing and green stuff, but for a fraction of the price it was worth it.

If you want to discuss the cost of units, do so in the general forum. This is a tactics thread and unfortunately for you monetary cost is rather irrelevant to whether a unit is good or not. If you want to take 3 gakky units instead of one good one, then that's your prerogative. However, it's not really relavent to this thread.

Martel732 wrote:

 A GumyBear wrote:
HH's are just those SnG's type of units that are fun for a fire ouchy burn burn type of army

just like every other codex they have a few useless things in their dex that people try to make use of but in the end other things will just out preform it

ex. SM Whirlwind, find a use for that in a competitive environment and you are the most tactical genius of a lifetime

I use whirlwinds in most of my all comers lists. They are cheap, cause pinning, and can ignore cover. I usually can't afford a 2nd auto/las because I have to bring the stupid stormraven for anti-flier duty, so I bring this as the third heavy. ANd BA whirlwinds can move 12" and still fire.

The recosting in the DA codex means the WW has a place... As a marine, I have found that the biggest struggles are against hoard armies. Also when a template just has to touch a vehicle, S5 can actually affect multiple AV10 vehicles... not healthy for IG parking lots and the like. The castellan round is good for those pesky rangers pathfinders, scouts sitting in reinforced terrain. At 85 they were very questionable, at 65 they may have a place.

^ Why don't you tell him what you really think.

Anyways that aside. I find Hellhounds and there variants to make great flank protectors there AV12 side armour can be the difference between a Chimera full of Troops getting splatted or them living to fight another day. Yes the Vendetta is better point for point but it can be garenteed that it won't be laying down fire till atleast turn 2 or later where as the Hellhound and variants can. All in all I think there not too bad you just need to do something with them that most people don't understand and thats apply tactics.

 Griddlelol wrote:

 KingmanHighborn wrote:
Oh one more thing, some of us can't afford or seem to trade enough, to get even one Valk, let alone a Vendetta, so if we want to take Fast Attack stuff it's Hounds, Sentinels, or Rough Riders. I.E. the stuff the rich boys don't want. (slight joke.) Just have to get by. Plus I play on some small boards (often 4'x4' or 6'x4' so...I'm close to begin with.)

Then you lack creativity or don't bother to put in effort. I am far from well off, but I have 3 fliers. All of them I got from eBay in vastly differing conditions. Two required a large amount of fixing and green stuff, but for a fraction of the price it was worth it.

If you want to discuss the cost of units, do so in the general forum. This is a tactics thread and unfortunately for you monetary cost is rather irrelevant to whether a unit is good or not. If you want to take 3 gakky units instead of one good one, then that's your prerogative. However, it's not really relavent to this thread.

Or you can chose not to be a judgmental jerk....

Sinji wrote:
^ Why don't you tell him what you really think.

Anyways that aside. I find Hellhounds and there variants to make great flank protectors there AV12 side armour can be the difference between a Chimera full of Troops getting splatted or them living to fight another day. Yes the Vendetta is better point for point but it can be garenteed that it won't be laying down fire till atleast turn 2 or later where as the Hellhound and variants can. All in all I think there not too bad you just need to do something with them that most people don't understand and thats apply tactics.

You know what's better? Av:13 in the form of LRs. A demolisher is one of the best flank protectors around, and can be used for an armoured push if your opponent has castled up in a corner. It just seems that people are trying so hard to did a use for the hellhound, which pretty much means it's not that great.

Agreed but if your heavys are full then the Hellhound is a good option B.

Sinji wrote:
Agreed but if your heavys are full then the Hellhound is a good option B.

I guess. Although it's got a little short range to just sit back and wait. Unlike the demolisher which can afford to wait thanks to its av14. Then again, a bastion or adl would mitigate that somewhat.

Glocknall wrote:

 labmouse42 wrote:

 schadenfreude wrote:
3 problems with the hell hound

#1: Same force org as the vendetta
#2: See #1
#3: See #2

I have a prediction for you all ladies and gentlemen.
The supplement "Death from the Skies" will be released Feb 16th. It will have an updated cost of the Vendetta at 190 points.
At that point, the hellhound will seem like a more attractive option.



As a side note, the amount of QQ coming from IG players will be great rivers of tears.

Unfortunetly you probably will not see a points change for any existing flyer in that book. Reason is that the Death from the Skies will be a supplement to the 40k game. Imagine if you walk into a store not having purchased this book and a player presents you with their shiny new Eldar Flyer. Not too big of a problem, he explains its rules and you both get down to gaming. Now imagine that same player looking at your army and informing you that your army is now over points because in his book the Flyer for your army has changed points. Full Stop. You not likely to appreciate that.

GW does not adjust points for units that have gotten better/worse/overcosted/undercosted..etc Imagine all the units that would need their points cost adjusted because of 6thed rule changes. That stuff is best handled in new Codexes rather than in supplemental books.

Vendetta is undercosted but not by as much as people think. A better price would probably be around 150-160 points max. That wll be handled in the next IG Codex, 2014-15.

BS... A stormraven costs 200+ points for transport, AV12 and a couple of decent weapons. A valkrie may be 150-160 but the vendetta yielding 3 TL Lascannons should at least be 200+ points... 75% accurate S9 fire should cost.

DAaddict wrote:

BS... A stormraven costs 200+ points for transport, AV12 and a couple of decent weapons. A valkrie may be 150-160 but the vendetta yielding 3 TL Lascannons should at least be 200+ points... 75% accurate S9 fire should cost.

Oh you mean aside from the fact the storm raven is an assault transport that can carry a dreadnought. Oh it also flat out ignores melta weapons. Has PotMS, AV12 on the rear as well as weapon options that are worth it.

The vendetta is under-costed. I'm not disputing that, but it's not as drastically under-costed as your knee jerk reaction says.

 Griddlelol wrote:

DAaddict wrote:

BS... A stormraven costs 200+ points for transport, AV12 and a couple of decent weapons. A valkrie may be 150-160 but the vendetta yielding 3 TL Lascannons should at least be 200+ points... 75% accurate S9 fire should cost.

Oh you mean aside from the fact the storm raven is an assault transport that can carry a dreadnought. Oh it also flat out ignores melta weapons. Has PotMS, AV12 on the rear as well as weapon options that are worth it.

The vendetta is under-costed. I'm not disputing that, but it's not as drastically under-costed as your knee jerk reaction says.

Judging from the costs of Nephilim and Helldrakes - only AV 11 in one case and limited AT fire in both cases... 3 x S9 AP2 Twin-linked shots on an AV 12 armor with a troop transport capability is highly undercosted at less than 200. Now if the AV is reduced perhaps but the quick fix is to take out the value of taking 6 or even 9 vendettas. Or perhaps now that they are flyers reducing the slot to 1 Vendetta instead of 1 to 3.

I can't believe no one has brought this up yet, but look at this: Competative Grey Knights are starting to use Dreadknights with Heavy Incinerators, to great effect from what I understand. I have a gamer in our group that owns three, and most of the time runs two. The torrent Str 6 AP 4 weapon is great for smoking a lot of armies backfield objective holders, good for putting wounds on 2+ or 3+ armored models and makes sure no one is using that Defense Line 2+ cover bull-crap.
The Heldrake is amazing. AP3 means a lot but don't discount the lowly Hellhound because its AP4. They have their different roles. The Heldrake means a heck of a lot more to Chaos Space Marines then the Hellhound does the Imperial guard.
If you need torrent ST6 AP4 weapons, I don't think allying in Grey Knights to fill out a weakness is a bad idea. Coteaz, strike squad and a dreadknight is a good little allied force that would compliment Guard well, IMO.

DAaddict wrote:

 Griddlelol wrote:

DAaddict wrote:

BS... A stormraven costs 200+ points for transport, AV12 and a couple of decent weapons. A valkrie may be 150-160 but the vendetta yielding 3 TL Lascannons should at least be 200+ points... 75% accurate S9 fire should cost.

Oh you mean aside from the fact the storm raven is an assault transport that can carry a dreadnought. Oh it also flat out ignores melta weapons. Has PotMS, AV12 on the rear as well as weapon options that are worth it.

The vendetta is under-costed. I'm not disputing that, but it's not as drastically under-costed as your knee jerk reaction says.

Judging from the costs of Nephilim and Helldrakes - only AV 11 in one case and limited AT fire in both cases... 3 x S9 AP2 Twin-linked shots on an AV 12 armor with a troop transport capability is highly undercosted at less than 200. Now if the AV is reduced perhaps but the quick fix is to take out the value of taking 6 or even 9 vendettas. Or perhaps now that they are flyers reducing the slot to 1 Vendetta instead of 1 to 3.

Remember that the Vendetta is BS3. Twin linked is very good but it will fail you more than you think. The Stormraven is by far a better flyer with much more utility. You have more weapon loadouts, missles, hurricane bolters...etc. PotMS is money because you can ignore the restrictions on skyfire and fire a TL Multi-melta at a ground target and light up a flyer with TL assault cannons and missles. Hurricane Bolters gives you even more utility. You can also take a TL Lascannon for anti flyer and w/ a BS 4 Multi-melta makes it a much better anti-flyer.

The DA flyers are just awful at almost any points level. A total fail by GW on every level.

One tactic that I like is outflanking the Hellhounds with Creed AND including pie plates in the army. Pie plates could be Eradicators, Griffons, Manticores, LRBT's.

On deployment, if the opponent fears the outflankers they will cluster towards the middle of their depolyment zone so as not to get flamed to death when the HH's arrive. This makes for a target rich center of the table for your pie plates.

If they dont fear the outflankers - they will once they arrive , theyre fast vehicles and have good reach with their torrent weapon and hull mounted MM.

DAaddict wrote:

Glocknall wrote:

 labmouse42 wrote:

 schadenfreude wrote:
3 problems with the hell hound

#1: Same force org as the vendetta
#2: See #1
#3: See #2

I have a prediction for you all ladies and gentlemen.
The supplement "Death from the Skies" will be released Feb 16th. It will have an updated cost of the Vendetta at 190 points.
At that point, the hellhound will seem like a more attractive option.



As a side note, the amount of QQ coming from IG players will be great rivers of tears.

Unfortunetly you probably will not see a points change for any existing flyer in that book. Reason is that the Death from the Skies will be a supplement to the 40k game. Imagine if you walk into a store not having purchased this book and a player presents you with their shiny new Eldar Flyer. Not too big of a problem, he explains its rules and you both get down to gaming. Now imagine that same player looking at your army and informing you that your army is now over points because in his book the Flyer for your army has changed points. Full Stop. You not likely to appreciate that.

GW does not adjust points for units that have gotten better/worse/overcosted/undercosted..etc Imagine all the units that would need their points cost adjusted because of 6thed rule changes. That stuff is best handled in new Codexes rather than in supplemental books.

Vendetta is undercosted but not by as much as people think. A better price would probably be around 150-160 points max. That wll be handled in the next IG Codex, 2014-15.

BS... A stormraven costs 200+ points for transport, AV12 and a couple of decent weapons. A valkrie may be 150-160 but the vendetta yielding 3 TL Lascannons should at least be 200+ points... 75% accurate S9 fire should cost.

I like how you left rear armor 12, PoTMS, the fact the raven can carry a dread also and the assault ramp out of your equation. I do think vendettas are a little underpriced but not to the degree you are suggesting.

 Brymm wrote:
I can't believe no one has brought this up yet, but look at this: Competative Grey Knights are starting to use Dreadknights with Heavy Incinerators, to great effect from what I understand. I have a gamer in our group that owns three, and most of the time runs two. The torrent Str 6 AP 4 weapon is great for smoking a lot of armies backfield objective holders, good for putting wounds on 2+ or 3+ armored models and makes sure no one is using that Defense Line 2+ cover bull-crap.
The Heldrake is amazing. AP3 means a lot but don't discount the lowly Hellhound because its AP4. They have their different roles. The Heldrake means a heck of a lot more to Chaos Space Marines then the Hellhound does the Imperial guard.
If you need torrent ST6 AP4 weapons, I don't think allying in Grey Knights to fill out a weakness is a bad idea. Coteaz, strike squad and a dreadknight is a good little allied force that would compliment Guard well, IMO.

The difference being that Dreadknights don't crumple like a wet noodle if something attacks it in CC.