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Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Vallejo, CA

I was reading my codex again, and torturing my brain for a reason to take hellhounds, as they're so cool, but have generally been crummy.

As others have noted, it seems like they really rather need to have the hull multimelta, as a tank that can ONLY target light infantry was already of shaky use in 5th ed, and now in 6th ed, your needs for dedicated anti-light infantry are lessened, while the need to be able to crack serious armor has gone up.

But problems immediately arose once I started to look at this hellhound setup comparatively. For example, four hellhounds costs basically the same as three leman russ eradicators with multimelta sponsons. While the hellhounds give you 3 more HP, and more speed in reacting with the defensive weapons that are multimeltas, the eradicators give you 2 more multimeltas, 3 heavy bolters, and AV14, which all sounds like a much, much better deal. Likewise, four hellhounds stacking up against two medusas and two colossuses isn't very flattering to the hellhound either. In fact, four hellhounds don't even look all that much better than four squads of meltavets in 2x heavy flamer chimeras, and that's on scoring units.

It's starting to make me wonder, seriously, is there a point to hellhounds? For their cost, it doesn't seem like they do much that other units in the game can't do with better armor, longer ranges, or scoring, or are just plain old better. How often are you seriously going to need a hellhound in specific compared to its other alternatives?

I also ran the same kind of thinking for the devil dog and it was mostly the same. Compare, at equal points, 6 devil dogs to 4 las/multimelta vanquishers and you see something that loses out on 25% serious anti-tank weapons and AV14, but does gain 50% more hull points, I suppose.

Still...




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Regular Dakkanaut




Ailaros your over thinking this..

First off the HH shares a FA slot with the Vendetta...strike one

On the plus side its a fast, AV 12/!2?10 vehicle with a STR6/AP4 torrent flamer. You cannot compare it to the eradicator simply because the the HH is many times more accurate with its shot.

The killer about the HH is that its not AP3. Against MEQs your getting dangerously close to to assault range or melta rage to MEQ to use a flamer that will not deny their armor save.

Against Xenos it rocks but then again how many Xenos do you play against?

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Decrepit Dakkanaut





Vallejo, CA

Glocknall wrote:You cannot compare it to the eradicator simply because the the HH is many times more accurate with its shot.

Well yes you can. The torrent weapon is more accurate, but it's also much, much shorter range. Not only does this mean the eradicator hits faster, and always has a wider range of targets (and can engage them from a position of more safety), but it can also more easily hit the most concentrated part of a cluster of enemy infantry, rather than the part of the infantry that's closest to 12" from the tank.

Plus, if all you're trying to do is hit a big mob of infantry, it's not like the eradicator is THAT inaccurate. If you can scatter 3" and still count it as a hit, the eradicator is BS4. If you can count a scatter of 5" a hit, then it's BS5, and it only really misses when it scatters entirely off of any infantry, which is certainly possible, but it's definitely all that terrible.




Your one-stop website for batreps, articles, and assorted goodies about the men of Folera: Foleran First Imperial Archives. Read Dakka's favorite narrative battle report series The Hand of the King. Also, check out my commission work, and my terrain.

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Regular Dakkanaut




 Ailaros wrote:
Glocknall wrote:You cannot compare it to the eradicator simply because the the HH is many times more accurate with its shot.

Well yes you can. The torrent weapon is more accurate, but it's also much, much shorter range. Not only does this mean the eradicator hits faster, and always has a wider range of targets (and can engage them from a position of more safety), but it can also more easily hit the most concentrated part of a cluster of enemy infantry, rather than the part of the infantry that's closest to 12" from the tank.

Plus, if all you're trying to do is hit a big mob of infantry, it's not like the eradicator is THAT inaccurate. If you can scatter 3" and still count it as a hit, the eradicator is BS4. If you can count a scatter of 5" a hit, then it's BS5, and it only really misses when it scatters entirely off of any infantry, which is certainly possible, but it's definitely all that terrible.





Oh and this is coming from the King of Displacement!!!

If you actually measure threat range the HH its 32". The eradicator actually comes in at just about the same threat range with less accuracy. The eradicator benifits from better AV and range to threat, but will not seriously worry any player it comes against., The HH can scour any number of Zenos away from their AGLs and also has scout to boot for alpha strike.

In the end their both lackluster choices. Whats why you never see them on the tabletop.....

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Some Tomb World in some galaxy by that one thing in that one place (or Minnesota for nosy people)

HH's are just those SnG's type of units that are fun for a fire ouchy burn burn type of army

just like every other codex they have a few useless things in their dex that people try to make use of but in the end other things will just out preform it

ex. SM Whirlwind, find a use for that in a competitive environment and you are the most tactical genius of a lifetime

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/02/01 06:26:05


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You could use them for a CoD battle with a lot of buildings. They'd be nice for clearing out a bunch of hostile mobs with their flamethrowers. Otherwise leave them at home. e

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Decrepit Dakkanaut






Springfield, VA

One thing you're forgetting is the 4hellhounds vs 3eradicators is the extra hellhound's main gun

you lose AV14, 3x Heavy Bolters, and 2 multimeltas, yes

but you gain

one more Str 6 AP 4 autohitting ignores cover, Fast vehicle, 3 more hull points, and not giving up a heavy support slot.
   
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Regular Dakkanaut



San Francisco

I've had fun using them, but at 130 pts base, they are damned expensive for what they do. They work great against 4+Sv units, but everything else they seem to get counter attacked and meltad to death without even doing anything. I think after a few games of running one, and two in my lists, I'm going to have to look elsewhere to spend the points.
   
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Some Tomb World in some galaxy by that one thing in that one place (or Minnesota for nosy people)

when versing xenos? HH
when versing anything else? stick to LRBT's

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/02/01 06:51:47


"Put your 1st best against you opponents 2nd best, your 2nd best against their 3rd best, and your 3rd best against their 1st best"-Sun Tzu's Art of War

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Vallejo, CA

Well, even if the hellhounds are slightly more efficient for bringing anti-infantry firepower (which I still find dubious, a 24" torrent weapon has a long way to go before it becomes a 42" large blast), it's still flimsier, and still has worse over-all quality with poorer access to melta than an eradicator. And that's just one of the things that outcompetes it, amongst several.

I'm left to re-ask my initial question, when do you specifically need a hellhound, because nothing else will do?


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Some Tomb World in some galaxy by that one thing in that one place (or Minnesota for nosy people)

a fortuned harlequin squad with a shadowseer

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Springfield, VA

 Ailaros wrote:


I'm left to re-ask my initial question, when do you specifically need a hellhound, because nothing else will do?



Never, unless your heavy support is full.
   
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Vallejo, CA

A GumyBear wrote:a fortuned harlequin squad with a shadowseer

... say hello to flamer stormies or eradicator or colossuses, or flamer vets jumping out of a vendetta, or a vendetta with cover-hating missiles, or, or...

Unit1126PLL wrote:Never, unless your heavy support is full.

Well, I'd really like to think there's SOMETHING to them.


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Ian Pickstock




Nottingham

6th edition means the Devil Dog is damn effective. It will hit land raiders pretty much 100% of the time, and even smaller vehicles most of the time.

Problem is unless your opponent uses Land Raiders they're pretty rubbish. The only tanks it gets to hurt tend to be cheap transports, even if it pops one it's usually a turn after the transport has done its job.

Vanilla hellhounds are rubbish though. Even against nid horde lists. Displacement means you get at most 3 models.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/02/01 08:21:47


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Connecticut

Glocknall wrote:
Against Xenos it rocks but then again how many Xenos do you play against?
What are the top-tier armies in today's meta?

Partially it depends on your local meta, but the best ones I've seen are the following
- Necrons (wraith and flyer spam)
- Daemons
- Grey Knights
- IG
- DE beast pack cheese

Of those, the hellhound will do fine against 3.
Two of them will basically counter the last one completely -- which would otherwise roll over an IG army.

As a final note -- Vendettas are indeed awesome. When the new flyer book comes out later this month, I expect the price of them to increase by about 50 points.
   
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You know those low points combat patrol games? They're pretty popular in the game shops in the two towns near where I live. The restriction on armour and characters causes a lot of people to leave all their tanks and AT at home. The flimsyness isn't an issue, heavier options aren't an option, and being able to kill a lot of dudes in cover is useful.

The ap4 is a huge hurt though.

A fantastic use for them is scaring hoard armies into wasting their time on it.

If they ignore it, it can mess up some targets of opportunity.

All in all though...... meh.

Codex isn't in hand, quick question: does the Bane Wolf torrent?
   
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3 problems with the hell hound

#1: Same force org as the vendetta
#2: See #1
#3: See #2

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 schadenfreude wrote:
3 problems with the hell hound

#1: Same force org as the vendetta
#2: See #1
#3: See #2
I have a prediction for you all ladies and gentlemen.
The supplement "Death from the Skies" will be released Feb 16th. It will have an updated cost of the Vendetta at 190 points.
At that point, the hellhound will seem like a more attractive option.



As a side note, the amount of QQ coming from IG players will be great rivers of tears.
   
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Vallejo, CA

BryllCream wrote:6th edition means the Devil Dog is damn effective. It will hit land raiders pretty much 100% of the time, and even smaller vehicles most of the time.

?

The new blast rules bring devil dogs up to BS3, where large blast templates were before 6th. They do not hit 100% of the time, far from it.

maceria wrote:low points combat patrol games?

Okay, now this I could actually see. Mostly because a lot of the better options are restricted.

At this point, though, I think I might still be more tempted by heavy bolter HWSs and flamer stormies.


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Abstract Principles of 40k: Why game imbalance and list tailoring is good, and why tournaments are an absurd farce.

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Killer Klaivex




Oceanside, CA

The advantage I see in the hell hound (or devil dog) is the speed.
People deploy their units with the crap up front and the good stuff in the back. Pulling kills from the front means that slower tanks are picking off models my opponent is willing to give up.
Speed gives me shooting angles that let me have more control over who dies in a unit.
As far as why take a fast attack tank at all, it's saturation. You don't take them instead of 3 heavies, you take them with your 3 heavies.
As soon as you hit a 2nd force org, it's harder to justify.

I haven't got to try it yet, but I'm going to ally in some dark angel power fields. AV12 side army is decent against lighter guns, and a 4++ is going to make them decent vs heavy guns. We'll see.


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 thedarkavenger wrote:

So. I got a game with this list in. First game in at least 3-4 months.
 
   
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Hell Hounds were pretty slick when Scarab Farms were big. Now? Meh...


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Vallejo, CA

But the only advantage you're talking about with speed is to have longer range to short-ranged guns. Why don't you just take longer ranged guns?


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 Ailaros wrote:
BryllCream wrote:6th edition means the Devil Dog is damn effective. It will hit land raiders pretty much 100% of the time, and even smaller vehicles most of the time.

?

The new blast rules bring devil dogs up to BS3, where large blast templates were before 6th. They do not hit 100% of the time, far from it.

They will vs a Land Raider.

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Longtime Dakkanaut





Canada

I liked playing them a lot in 5th, them and the Banewolf (I know I know, but hey I used to play a null deployment army, and it was great at lighting up deepstriking MEQ's)

I don't think it makes sense to compare the HH directly to the Vendetta. If your FA slots are completely full of Vendettas then OK, it's an either or, but if not they serve totally different purposes.

Being able to flush 4+ armor out of cover at 24-32" is pretty good. The price isn't that high compared to an equivalent Leman Russ, and it's not competing for Heavy Support slots (this is where my Mantircores and LR squad goes).

If were talking 100% competitive sure, there are better options. For your average game I don't see a reason not to take one if you like the model.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/02/01 18:03:56


 
   
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Vallejo, CA

BryllCream wrote:They will vs a Land Raider.

Well, the blast template has only a 1.5" radius. Let's say that from the center of a land raider you can scatter 2.5" and that's when the hole just goes off (though land raiders aren't 5" wide, let's be generous and say that they are. That means you can scatter 4" and still at least wing it with the template. Throw on the BS3 and that means that you hit if you hit, or you hit if you scatter and roll a 7 or less.

7 is in the middle of the bell curve, which means you're hitting about half of the time you miss, which means you're hitting about 2/3ds of the time. Which means you're still only BS4. Against a target that we've made artificially large.

If you're never missing land raiders, that means you're lucky, not that devil dogs have phenomenal accuracy.

More Dakka wrote:I don't think it makes sense to compare the HH directly to the Vendetta.

Not even a little. I don't know why people are bringing things up.

Well, that's not true, we could be talking about a hellstrike missile vendetta, but I'm guessing that that's not what people mean.

More Dakka wrote:The price isn't that high compared to an equivalent Leman Russ

But it rather is. Only 30 more points gets you a much better range, way better armor, and the ability to put a lot of bargain hull weapons on it.


Your one-stop website for batreps, articles, and assorted goodies about the men of Folera: Foleran First Imperial Archives. Read Dakka's favorite narrative battle report series The Hand of the King. Also, check out my commission work, and my terrain.

Abstract Principles of 40k: Why game imbalance and list tailoring is good, and why tournaments are an absurd farce.

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 labmouse42 wrote:
Glocknall wrote:
Against Xenos it rocks but then again how many Xenos do you play against?
What are the top-tier armies in today's meta?

Partially it depends on your local meta, but the best ones I've seen are the following
- Necrons (wraith and flyer spam)
- Daemons
- Grey Knights
- IG
- DE beast pack cheese

Of those, the hellhound will do fine against 3.
Two of them will basically counter the last one completely -- which would otherwise roll over an IG army.

As a final note -- Vendettas are indeed awesome. When the new flyer book comes out later this month, I expect the price of them to increase by about 50 points.


I would be shocked by this. More likely they simply reformat all those entries to have flier data faxes. I think costs should be adjusted, but by the same measure the night scythe is also under cost and the brand new DA flier is way over cost.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@Ailaros- LR are actually a bit wider then 5" at the sponsons and are about 7.25" long meaning if you place the blast in the center even if it drifts diagonally by your math it should be fine. I think you are artificially underestimating how easily LR are to hit with blasts, but I will agree that it is silly to bring a 120 pt (without hull MM) platform to get one S8 hit that needs to be within 12" in order to have a shot at wrecking av 14. 105pt storm trooper unit with dual meltas is a better option.

I think it was just idiocy to cost a 12/12/10 fast tank equal to a 12/12/10 flier or skimmer at the time, both with scout, while one can transport 12 models has options for more dakka and out guns the HH in the first place anyways. If you are avoiding IG fliers then I don't see it as a bad tank however, it's speed and scout makes it awesome for killing backfield grot squad objective holders and it is more durable verse certain threats then storm troopers. I would maybe consider taking one of each, flamer stormies and a HH for back field disruption, like I said, anything that can wipe stormies won't wipe the HH and vice versa typically.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/02/01 18:46:21


   
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Canada

 Ailaros wrote:


More Dakka wrote:The price isn't that high compared to an equivalent Leman Russ

But it rather is. Only 30 more points gets you a much better range, way better armor, and the ability to put a lot of bargain hull weapons on it.



Well, if your 3 HS slots are 2x Manticores and 2-3 LRBTs, Vanquishers, or any of the other more popular LR variants and you have a pair of Vendettas and have a spare 130 to throw around, you know what I mean.

But here's the thing I like about the HH, it's got some really mean ways to fire that flame template, as long as the narrow end is closer than the wide end you can get maximum efficiency out of the shot, compared to a large blast with BS3 scatter, which even if it hits might not be ideally places (enemy in a line behind a strung out Aegis, or just up on a 2nd tier of a ruin).

I find it's a good unit in the army book, not an autotake by any stretch, but if you have a place for it then it becomes worth while. I found in 5th that they were very readily ignored by most opponents in favor of juicier targets in my armor-centric list. But with the degraded resilience of AV12 compared to 14 that could be a whole different story.


 
   
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 labmouse42 wrote:
 schadenfreude wrote:
3 problems with the hell hound

#1: Same force org as the vendetta
#2: See #1
#3: See #2
I have a prediction for you all ladies and gentlemen.
The supplement "Death from the Skies" will be released Feb 16th. It will have an updated cost of the Vendetta at 190 points.
At that point, the hellhound will seem like a more attractive option.



As a side note, the amount of QQ coming from IG players will be great rivers of tears.


Good. Vendettas were underpriced hell in 5th, in 6th they're almost reaching Space Marine level of lameness.

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 Ailaros wrote:
But the only advantage you're talking about with speed is to have longer range to short-ranged guns. Why don't you just take longer ranged guns?



Don't forget, the hellhound can outflank. In the majority of missions, this can get it VERY close to its targets as soon as it arrives, and as many guard players are already taking an astropath, he lets you reroll your outflank rolls, making it even more likely you will get the hellhound to come in where you need it. I played a game last night with the diagonal deployment (I don't recall the name) and my hellhound came right in my opponents deployment zone because he was in the corner. It lasted one turn but it absolutely wrecked his firebase. They're not uber competitive, but don't discount them!

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