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I see some people using flails, and others using great weapons on their chaos marauders. Assuming the new codex doesn't goof things up, what're the pros and cons of each?

 Evertras wrote:
I see some people using flails, and others using great weapons on their chaos marauders. Assuming the new codex doesn't goof things up, what're the pros and cons of each?

Rumor is that marauders are 6 points and great weapons are 3 more.
Have not heard of the cost of flails yet.

-Matt

Well that would be an unfortunate near-doubling if that's true. o.O

Gahh, marauders were completely overpriced in the previous army book! To arms!

Not only rumours... but you gotta pay 2p for each mark you want..(for every maraurder) so it will be more expensive and yes the base cost is higher too, included the weps.

phatonic wrote:
Not only rumours... but you gotta pay 2p for each mark you want..(for every maraurder) so it will be more expensive and yes the base cost is higher too, included the weps.

But the marks got better.
A horde throwing out 40 attacks isn't as good as a horde throwing out 30 with re-rolls to hit. Not being forced to over-run is a huge boon.
Sword and Board marauders of nurgle are sweet. 5+/6++ with -1 to be hit.

-Matt

HawaiiMatt wrote:

phatonic wrote:
Not only rumours... but you gotta pay 2p for each mark you want..(for every maraurder) so it will be more expensive and yes the base cost is higher too, included the weps.

But the marks got better.
A horde throwing out 40 attacks isn't as good as a horde throwing out 30 with re-rolls to hit. Not being forced to over-run is a huge boon.
Sword and Board marauders of nurgle are sweet. 5+/6++ with -1 to be hit.

-Matt

Think they gonna need nurgle... yeh they dont come with light armor anymore.. 1p each maurader for that now :/

phatonic wrote:

HawaiiMatt wrote:

phatonic wrote:
Not only rumours... but you gotta pay 2p for each mark you want..(for every maraurder) so it will be more expensive and yes the base cost is higher too, included the weps.

But the marks got better.
A horde throwing out 40 attacks isn't as good as a horde throwing out 30 with re-rolls to hit. Not being forced to over-run is a huge boon.
Sword and Board marauders of nurgle are sweet. 5+/6++ with -1 to be hit.

-Matt

Think they gonna need nurgle... yeh they dont come with light armor anymore.. 1p each maurader for that now :/

They didn't come with light armor before...

-Matt

They iv'e been told wrong, iv'e barly started with WOC for now.

HawaiiMatt wrote:

phatonic wrote:
Not only rumours... but you gotta pay 2p for each mark you want..(for every maraurder) so it will be more expensive and yes the base cost is higher too, included the weps.

But the marks got better.
A horde throwing out 40 attacks isn't as good as a horde throwing out 30 with re-rolls to hit. Not being forced to over-run is a huge boon.
Sword and Board marauders of nurgle are sweet. 5+/6++ with -1 to be hit.

-Matt

Khorne is still Frenzy, unless I'm missing something?

Khorne still gives Frenzy normally. (including Marauders)
Forsakens get Hatred from Khorne (Frenzy is stock for them), they have their own sets of marks.
Forsaken is actually very good now, they are like the Chaos version of DE Corsairs. Should work well as either a small flanking unit or a medium size block.

Oh they are also Core now, so you can have a fast hard hitting WoC army with everyone move 6 or greater.

inb4 people replacing Chaos Marauders arms with tentacles playing them as Forsaken!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just had a look at the book and a single Marauder with Flail / MoK now costs the same as 5 Skaven slaves...that's almost as much as a vastly superior normal Lizardmen Warrior.

Marauders went from way undercosted to hilariously overcosted.

 Sigvatr wrote:
inb4 people replacing Chaos Marauders arms with tentacles playing them as Forsaken!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just had a look at the book and a single Marauder with Flail / MoK now costs the same as 5 Skaven slaves...that's almost as much as a vastly superior normal Lizardmen Warrior.

Marauders went from way undercosted to hilariously overcosted.

Not really.
You just want nurgle instead of khorne. Horde of Nurgle marauders with flails go before the saurus and out kills them. Hitting on 3's and wounding on 3's outclasses hitting on 5's and have base 2 attacks.
Khorne marauders are just about a killy (only slightly less) but go first, and are cheaper.
Also, just finding 1 match up that they are bad against doesn't make the unit over-costed.

People are going to bitch because they went from very undercosted to fair.

-Matt

30 Chaos Marauders (Khorne, Flails) vs. 28 Lizardmen:

Marauders strike first, 10 attacks, 6.p6 hits, 4.p4 wounds, 6+ armor save => ~3,25 wounds, parry save => ~2,75 => ~3 losses.

Lizardmen hit back: 15 attacks, 7.5 hits, wound on 3s, 5 wounds => 5 dead Marauders.

Marauders lose their S5 bonus and will clearly lose the battle.

That's not "sightly less killy", that's a considerable difference that makes them far inferior especially given the fact Saurus Warriors have the best army USR in the game.

10 points is too much for what they bring in comparison to the overall meta - I expect the other top tier armies to go up in price as well. They should be 8 points w/ Khorne and Flails as opposed to ~6 points in 7th and the current price.

From what edition is that math?

Even Marauders running in bus - an odd choice for GW + MoK - they get 15 attacks. In horde, they get anything from 24-41, depending on the enemy formation. Could you explain your calculation please because I'm rather confused?

Marauders are completely fairly priced in my opinion. Getting a ton of S5 hits costs 11-12 points this edition. Now Greatswords and Flagellants don't look so bad anymore.

Whoops my bad, completely forgot about frenzy.

 Sigvatr wrote:
30 Chaos Marauders (Khorne, Flails) vs. 28 Lizardmen:

Marauders strike first, 10 attacks, 6.p6 hits, 4.p4 wounds, 6+ armor save => ~3,25 wounds, parry save => ~2,75 => ~3 losses.

Lizardmen hit back: 15 attacks, 7.5 hits, wound on 3s, 5 wounds => 5 dead Marauders.

Marauders lose their S5 bonus and will clearly lose the battle.

That's not "sightly less killy", that's a considerable difference that makes them far inferior especially given the fact Saurus Warriors have the best army USR in the game.

10 points is too much for what they bring in comparison to the overall meta - I expect the other top tier armies to go up in price as well. They should be 8 points w/ Khorne and Flails as opposed to ~6 points in 7th and the current price.

You're off on the number of marauder attacks.

30 marauders will be in horde formation and have frenzy. Saurus will do better 5 wide and deep.
Marauders will get 28 attacks, hitting on 3's, wounding on 3's. Saurus will save on 6's and parry on 6's. Marauders average 9 kills.
Saurus get 15 attacks, hitting on 4's and wounding on 3's, marauders get no save. ~5 dead.
Marauders still have 25 left, lizardmen are down to 19. Lizardmen just lost steadfast and are taking a break at -3 to -5, depending on who charged.

If saurus go wider for more attacks:
Marauders get 40 attacks, killing 12-13.
Saurus get 26 attacks back (10 in the front, and the 6 that survive to support), killing 8-9. Again, saurus lose the flight.

Saurus don't come out ahead until the 2nd round of combat, or if you're running a block of 35-40 where they can absorb the initially impact of the init 4 swings and have enough left to deal damage back.

With the correct number of attacks for khorne marauders, they come out a fair bit ahead (up by ~4 before other combat res factors in). It makes it risky for both players. If the lizards make the initial break test, those marauders are as good as dead (S3 in 2nd round). If the lizards fail that first break test, they are as good as dead (they will either be caught, or the marauders can use the flails again).
I'm not a fan of taking Leadership -4 tests for a 300 point unit, even if I've got cold blooded.

Now, factor in a BSB and a Slaan with banner of discipline, and that's another story. Of course you must also factor in chaos characters as well, and at that point you're looking at balance between army lists and not just 2 isolated units.
Nurgle with flails is actually worse, they kill ~9 and lose 6. They still win, just not by as many.

I had the numbers wrong when I first ran them, as I though khorne gave hate. It gives frenzy to most units, and some units get hate instead.

-Matt

Yep, as stated before, I forgot to add Frenzy in. Though Marauders are unlikely to be fielded in horde formation with only 30 models - every lost model results in a lost attack.

Another thing to consider, though, is overall resilence. Marauders are much more likely to be killed / weakened before they enter combat due to a lower T and the lack of an armor save.

Given the math, though, they do seem to be able to hold on their own...I'm intereted in seeing how it all turns out. I'd still consider 10p pretty pricey though and if I still played WoC, I would not field them anymore - almost double the cost, but still having the same major drawback: a single stone thrower hit effectively takes your unit out of the game / drastically weakens it. I'm more interested in seeing how Forsaken turn out to be. Too bad they got 1 malicious roll result.

 Sigvatr wrote:
Yep, as stated before, I forgot to add Frenzy in. Though Marauders are unlikely to be fielded in horde formation with only 30 models - every lost model results in a lost attack.

Another thing to consider, though, is overall resilence. Marauders are much more likely to be killed / weakened before they enter combat due to a lower T and the lack of an armor save.

Given the math, though, they do seem to be able to hold on their own...I'm intereted in seeing how it all turns out. I'd still consider 10p pretty pricey though and if I still played WoC, I would not field them anymore - almost double the cost, but still having the same major drawback: a single stone thrower hit effectively takes your unit out of the game / drastically weakens it. I'm more interested in seeing how Forsaken turn out to be. Too bad they got 1 malicious roll result.

I'm not sold on Forsaken. 19 points is a lot. D3+1 attacks is too extreme for my tastes. Mostly because a poor roll could cost you the whole unit. Frenzy is a liability.
Ld8 means lose one combat and you're in trouble. 19 points means you're very unlikely to have steadfast. If you do have steadfast, you're dumping too many points into a single target.
MSU Swift Striding forsaken may work (as you can get away when you lose).

For the same 19 points, you can get get khorne warriors with halberds. Always S5, 3 attacks instead of 2-4 attacks, and init 5 instead of 4.

-Matt

HawaiiMatt wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
Yep, as stated before, I forgot to add Frenzy in. Though Marauders are unlikely to be fielded in horde formation with only 30 models - every lost model results in a lost attack.

Another thing to consider, though, is overall resilence. Marauders are much more likely to be killed / weakened before they enter combat due to a lower T and the lack of an armor save.

Given the math, though, they do seem to be able to hold on their own...I'm intereted in seeing how it all turns out. I'd still consider 10p pretty pricey though and if I still played WoC, I would not field them anymore - almost double the cost, but still having the same major drawback: a single stone thrower hit effectively takes your unit out of the game / drastically weakens it. I'm more interested in seeing how Forsaken turn out to be. Too bad they got 1 malicious roll result.

I'm not sold on Forsaken. 19 points is a lot. D3+1 attacks is too extreme for my tastes. Mostly because a poor roll could cost you the whole unit. Frenzy is a liability.
Ld8 means lose one combat and you're in trouble. 19 points means you're very unlikely to have steadfast. If you do have steadfast, you're dumping too many points into a single target.
MSU Swift Striding forsaken may work (as you can get away when you lose).

For the same 19 points, you can get get khorne warriors with halberds. Always S5, 3 attacks instead of 2-4 attacks, and init 5 instead of 4.

-Matt

For 2 more you get hatred, which makes them more reliable.
They move 6, thats pretty darn fast for infantry.
Forsakens are probably not good line infantry material, but they should do well as a flanking support unit.

19 points? Woah, wait what? Looks like it's ye old Warrior spam again :O

 Sigvatr wrote:
19 points? Woah, wait what? Looks like it's ye old Warrior spam again :O

Or you can run Chariots and Hounds for Core and run Ogres as your main blocks.

GW must really NOT want to sell their new forsaken models.. Can't believe they didn't get a price drop to something more reasonable.

 Kirasu wrote:
GW must really NOT want to sell their new forsaken models.. Can't believe they didn't get a price drop to something more reasonable.

...Necron FO ;D

 Sigvatr wrote:
Though Marauders are unlikely to be fielded in horde formation with only 30 models - every lost model results in a lost attack.

Another thing to consider, though, is overall resilence. Marauders are much more likely to be killed / weakened before they enter combat due to a lower T and the lack of an armor save.

If you don't field Marauders in horde formation, don't buy MoK + GW. A bus is there to tarpit and break steadfast; go for a cheap version. Overall resilience is not an issue because you have more models. The individual model is more likely to be killed but it's also worth less. Losing a Skullcrusher or Knight is a much bigger chunk of the unit, percentage-wise.

We've had the very same debate with Flagellants and Greatswords, so I totally see where you are coming from but compared to these, Marauders are a good deal (and I do field Greatswords). It's good that they stuck to their guns when it came to the pricing of tons of S5 attacks.

i am very upset

Chaos marauders
flails
full command
Mark of khorne

used to be 300pts... now = 520. That kind of price change makes me want to not use them like that any more it's insane. Is there a place for them in my army anymore?



Automatically Appended Next Post:
anyway answering the original question, gotta be flails... they're cheaper and marauders are bloody expensive enough now. I tried great weapons for a bit with the old rules and found that high initiative was better than hitting hard again in the 2nd round of combat

As can be seen above, we did some mathhammer (which was wrong first and thankfully got corrected!) and it turns out, Marauders do pretty good in melee.

Their main downfall is their lack of saves. They have no defense against shooting and average T, thus even normal arrows can easily take your unit out of the game.

I, personally, would not field them anymore as I consider them too expensive. I still think that 8 points would have been a fair price as on the one hand, they'd be superior in melee stats-wise compared to the average but on the other hand, they still have a major downfall which is their lack of defense and mobility. 10 points is too expensive.

Sad times. Do you think there is any good way to use them any more? Or is there a best way to use them now the points have changed so drastically?

BAN wrote:
Sad times. Do you think there is any good way to use them any more? Or is there a best way to use them now the points have changed so drastically?

A big block still holds it's own against most opponents, it's just fair now and not over-powered.
I'm thinking marauders are now for character led units.
An exalted hero with stubborn crown and scaly skin and dragon helm (and halberd), leading great weapon warriors (nurgle).
-1 to be hit, and stubborn, with lots of S5 attacks and the hero dishing out S6. If near the general, they'll be Ld9 or 10 with a re-roll fighting to the death.
They are no longer a unit that operates alone successfully. Which is fine, scrub infantry should have never been a stand alone unit.

Add in a block of warriors as the generals body guard (if on foot) for the banner of discipline, and a chariot or two. If you go daemon prince, I'd still bring the pair of chariots, but would run choppy warriors instead of sword and board.

A big block of Marauders at that price is far too fragile to be viable. With zero defense and average T, massed S3 fire / template weapons immediately take your unit out of the game.

10 pts is too much. 8 points would have been fair, 6 is too low, 10 too expensive.

Just for the mathhammer:

20 Elven archers fire at 30'' and thus hit at 4s, 10 hits, wound on 4s, 5 wounds. 5 dead Marauders at 30''. Even if we assume a full march every turn, it still takes them ~2 shooting phases to get in reliable attack range. That's about 16 dead Marauders before they charge. Add another 11 dead Marauders when assaulting due to stand and shoot. That's it.

A single stone thrower hit is likely to kill 13*0,5 = ~8 Marauders. In the first turn.

If I'd still play WoC, I'd somehow use them for conversions or sth. But even Forsaken are so expensive :/