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 Andrew1975 wrote:

 solkan wrote:
Did you miss the part where they said that there would be rules for using 25mm bases even though 30mm bases were preferred?

P.S. Everyone I know who bought the Dreamforge storm troopers did it for role playing game figures.

No I didn't miss that. But what if people want to use their new 30mm based warzone minis for 40k! This is my point. I've got a crap load of bases so to me it doesn't matter, but it will to other people.

Well their fault for being too lazy

Did Plastic Soldier Company flunk because it originally never came with any Flames of War bases? (or ANY bases to be exact)

Malifaux seems to be doing fine without providing 40k compatible bases as well.

It's a pretty weird complaint that the miniatures won't be compatible with some other company's rules.

I wasn't gaming back when orignal Warzone was out, as I was only around 8 or 9, but I remember my flgs having some of the miniatures in the discount bins when I was 13/14. Some of them were utterly awesome. Can't wait for this, based on that!

 -DE- wrote:

 Andrew1975 wrote:

 solkan wrote:
Did you miss the part where they said that there would be rules for using 25mm bases even though 30mm bases were preferred?

P.S. Everyone I know who bought the Dreamforge storm troopers did it for role playing game figures.

No I didn't miss that. But what if people want to use their new 30mm based warzone minis for 40k! This is my point. I've got a crap load of bases so to me it doesn't matter, but it will to other people.

Right, because every game should be backwards-compatible with 40k... Get over yourself.

Yeah, it probably should! It makes common sense. You are trying to get people to buy miniatures for a game that has failed multiple times, it would be wise to make the minis as accessible as possible. If that strategy is so foreign to you, maybe you aught to do some research. It's working pretty well to launch quite a few companies. It only makes sense. Companies do not make much money selling rules. Selling miniatures is where the money is, so a wise decision would be to make them accessible for what is the most popular game at the time....40K. That way you can sell to a larger audience and crossover is more likely.

Again, not an issue for me, but I can guarantee you that people will use it as a reason not to buy warzone miniatures. There will be other reasons too, I'm sure, but the idea is to eliminate as many reasons not to buy as possible. It's just marketing, it's not rocket science. Are there going to be companies that succeed without using GW size bases.....sure there are, its only one part of the formula.

Get over myself? Are you serious? This is not about me, its about what would be the best strategy to launch a new miniatures line, much less one that has a history of failing in multiple incarnations.

Did Plastic Soldier Company flunk because it originally never came with any Flames of War bases? (or ANY bases to be exact)

People do a lot of stupid stuff! Do they make bases now? Do they pretty much include them with all purchases now? Did it make the game easier and more accessible? Do the bases make the game more aesthetically pleasing?

With those thoughts in mind, did they fail because they did not include bases, NO. Do they include bases now? Yes. Does it make the game easier to get into, hence more accessible. Undoubtedly. Are they switching to plastic more and more to increase accessibility?Sure are. Was it probably a mistake to not include bases in the beginning? Probably.

Over the years gaming has switched very much from the DIY hobby days and are more and more turning into mass market projects and building audiences outside of the HARD CORE gamers. I still DIY most everything, but that's me. DIY is very intimidating for people new to the hobby and creates a barrier to entry, as small as that barrier may appear to you and me it is still a barrier.

Tell that to all the successful manufacturers that choose to sell their miniatures with 30mm round bases. I don't see anybody lamenting they can't use their Warmachine collection to proxy a 40k army. If somebody wants to use a model by a company that doesn't use 40k bases, they plop it onto a spare base and voila.

Not every company has to suck off Games Workshop.

You're making a mountain out of a molehill.

im itrestid in this lets see whats happens

http://shop.princeaugust.ie/warzone-mutant-chronicles-wargame/

 -DE- wrote:
Tell that to all the successful manufacturers that choose to sell their miniatures with 30mm round bases. I don't see anybody lamenting they can't use their Warmachine collection to proxy a 40k army. If somebody wants to use a model by a company that doesn't use 40k bases, they plop it onto a spare base and voila.

Not every company has to suck off Games Workshop.

You're making a mountain out of a molehill.

Once again agreed. "Minimizing the risk of failing", well 30mm bases is probably the LEAST of my concerns!

Things that are much more important

-Quality of Miniatures
-Price
-Size (dont want another Dystopian Legions now do we )

Heck I dont even care if its metal or plastic. I'd just like to see some new miniatures.

 -DE- wrote:
Tell that to all the successful manufacturers that choose to sell their miniatures with 30mm round bases. I don't see anybody lamenting they can't use their Warmachine collection to proxy a 40k army. If somebody wants to use a model by a company that doesn't use 40k bases, they plop it onto a spare base and voila.

Not every company has to suck off Games Workshop.

You're making a mountain out of a molehill.

If I can make a mountain out of a molehill, you know what that means, There is a mole hill! Good marketing gets rid of mole hills.

I'm actually not making anything out of anything. I'm simply stating marketing facts.The bases will be a barrier for some people. That's a fact, maybe not to you or me, but they will be to some people. Good marketing makes things more accessible to the widest audience.

Flames of war is actually a pretty good study. I know plenty of people that didn't get into it because it was too fiddly. Little metal guys, half of them miscast or look that way because casting a rifle at that scale in metal is pretty much an autofail, and then you have to make your own bases. Too much work! The new plastics with bases seam to be selling pretty well though. Why, because it's easy and familiar and the plastic infantry are by far much better quality than the metal.

Infinity and warmahordes are really nothing like 40K. Warzone however is pretty close, it's space guys in armor with guns, where infinity is more like anime and warmahordes is well warmahordes. To be successful in any endevour you have to look at your competition, see what they do well and see what they do poorly, and try to exploit that as much as you can.

I suggest you take some marketing classes, before you enlighten me with more of your "wisdom" such as "suck of Games Workshop" its really short sighted and shows a lack of any real knowledge of what works in the real world.

 Andrew1975 wrote:


If I can make a mountain out of a molehill, you know what that means, There is a mole hill! Good marketing gets rid of mole hills.

I'm actually not making anything out of anything. I'm simply stating marketing facts.The bases will be a barrier for some people. That's a fact, maybe not to you or me, but they will be to some people. Good marketing makes things more accessible to the widest audience.

Infinity and warmahordes are really nothing like 40K. Warzone however is pretty close, it's space guys in armor with guns, where infinity is more like anime and warmahordes is well warmahordes. To be successful in any endevour you have to look at your competition, see what they do well and see what they do poorly, and try to exploit that as much as you can.

I suggest you take some marketing classes, before you enlighten me with more of your "wisdom" such as "suck of Games Workshop" its really short sighted and shows a lack of any real knowledge of what works in the real world.

So by your logic.....Nearly all the Infantry should come with Flamethrowers, "Nuclear Guns", "Guns with a glowy bit on top", "Pistols with glowy bit on top", a sword with cords, an ax with cords, a giant fist, a gun with an extra gun taped on thats either a flamethrower, a "nuclear gun", or a "gun with a glowy bit on top", etc etc

 kenshin620 wrote:

 Andrew1975 wrote:


If I can make a mountain out of a molehill, you know what that means, There is a mole hill! Good marketing gets rid of mole hills.

I'm actually not making anything out of anything. I'm simply stating marketing facts.The bases will be a barrier for some people. That's a fact, maybe not to you or me, but they will be to some people. Good marketing makes things more accessible to the widest audience.

Infinity and warmahordes are really nothing like 40K. Warzone however is pretty close, it's space guys in armor with guns, where infinity is more like anime and warmahordes is well warmahordes. To be successful in any endevour you have to look at your competition, see what they do well and see what they do poorly, and try to exploit that as much as you can.

I suggest you take some marketing classes, before you enlighten me with more of your "wisdom" such as "suck of Games Workshop" its really short sighted and shows a lack of any real knowledge of what works in the real world.

So by your logic.....Nearly all the Infantry should come with Flamethrowers, "Nuclear Guns", "Guns with a glowy bit on top", "Pistols with glowy bit on top", a sword with cords, an ax with cords, a giant fist, a gun with an extra gun taped on thats either a flamethrower, a "nuclear gun", or a "gun with a glowy bit on top", etc etc

Actually it would be smart seeing as most of those things were options in the old warzone! Flamethrowers, chainswords, gahenna pukers and different pistols were all there. So yeah probably a good idea.

Now the real question is why did they have all those weapons options that were pretty similar to 40k? Maybe because that was the competition and weapons options really seamed to work for people. So if it works for my competition it's probably a good idea to try to incorporate it into what I'm doing.

And no GW did not invent weapons options. In fact GW did not invent much at all. You want to know what they did? For the most part they incorporated (read as stole) everything that worked for other people and brought it to market in a package that was more accessible than most anything else at the time. That's it. Which is also why they are so protective of what they have now.

What reason do you have that would say it's a bad idea to include weapon options? You know, besides just being argumentative.

 Andrew1975 wrote:

 -DE- wrote:
Tell that to all the successful manufacturers that choose to sell their miniatures with 30mm round bases. I don't see anybody lamenting they can't use their Warmachine collection to proxy a 40k army. If somebody wants to use a model by a company that doesn't use 40k bases, they plop it onto a spare base and voila.

Not every company has to suck off Games Workshop.

You're making a mountain out of a molehill.

If I can make a mountain out of a molehill, you know what that means, There is a mole hill! Good marketing gets rid of mole hills.

I'm actually not making anything out of anything. I'm simply stating marketing facts.The bases will be a barrier for some people. That's a fact, maybe not to you or me, but they will be to some people. Good marketing makes things more accessible to the widest audience.

Flames of war is actually a pretty good study. I know plenty of people that didn't get into it because it was too fiddly. Little metal guys, half of them miscast or look that way because casting a rifle at that scale in metal is pretty much an autofail, and then you have to make your own bases. Too much work! The new plastics with bases seam to be selling pretty well though. Why, because it's easy and familiar and the plastic infantry are by far much better quality than the metal.

Infinity and warmahordes are really nothing like 40K. Warzone however is pretty close, it's space guys in armor with guns, where infinity is more like anime and warmahordes is well warmahordes. To be successful in any endevour you have to look at your competition, see what they do well and see what they do poorly, and try to exploit that as much as you can.

I suggest you take some marketing classes, before you enlighten me with more of your "wisdom" such as "suck of Games Workshop" its really short sighted and shows a lack of any real knowledge of what works in the real world.

When has Battlefront not included bases for it's Flames of War figures? I think I got plastic bases in my old generic 15mm infantry boxes before the Flames of War branding back in like 2002...

Interestingly, what you advocate is kind of the opposite of reality. When a company wants to make a generic version of a popular brand, they'll emulate it pretty carefully, down to colors and product appearance, and the public perceives this as 'generics' (think grocery-store brand or Wal-Mart generic brand) with the associated perception that it's a lot cheaper but probably isn't as good. When a company attempts to establish it's own branding _without positioning themselves as a generic substitute_, then usage of similar designs is viewed by investors as weakness and by consumers as just a 'rip off'.

 judgedoug wrote:
When a company attempts to establish it's own branding _without positioning themselves as a generic substitute_, then usage of similar designs is viewed by investors as weakness and by consumers as just a 'rip off'.

Well the be fair many gamers I show Warzone to say "what is that, a ripoff of warhammer?"

Basically, will Warzone's marketing be:

"hey look at our not-Chaos and our not-Sisters of Battle, aren't they groovy? i mean we have our own setting and all, but check it out, they're the same scale and have 25mm circle bases so you can use them for anything!!"

or

"Warzone is here to rape your dog and kick your mother with how awesomely badass explosion of SWEET this fether is. Uberawesome designs and smooth-ass rules means that this game is the be-all-and-end-all of wargaming. Once you roll your first d20 you'll be throwing your old pansy ass space elves into the dumpster and getting tattooes of Razides across your face. Our figures are the fething best in the world and they're so goddamn awesome that we had to use 30mm bases because 25mm just couldn't contain them!!"

 judgedoug wrote:
Basically, will Warzone's marketing be:

"hey look at our not-Chaos and our not-Sisters of Battle, aren't they groovy? i mean we have our own setting and all, but check it out, they're the same scale and have 25mm circle bases so you can use them for anything!!"

or

"Warzone is here to rape your dog and kick your mother with how awesomely badass explosion of SWEET this fether is. Uberawesome designs and smooth-ass rules means that this game is the be-all-and-end-all of wargaming. Once you roll your first d20 you'll be throwing your old pansy ass space elves into the dumpster and getting tattooes of Razides across your face. Our figures are the fething best in the world and they're so goddamn awesome that we had to use 30mm bases because 25mm just couldn't contain them!!"

Hey now lets not copy Privateer Press here!

 kenshin620 wrote:

 judgedoug wrote:
Basically, will Warzone's marketing be:

"hey look at our not-Chaos and our not-Sisters of Battle, aren't they groovy? i mean we have our own setting and all, but check it out, they're the same scale and have 25mm circle bases so you can use them for anything!!"

or

"Warzone is here to rape your dog and kick your mother with how awesomely badass explosion of SWEET this fether is. Uberawesome designs and smooth-ass rules means that this game is the be-all-and-end-all of wargaming. Once you roll your first d20 you'll be throwing your old pansy ass space elves into the dumpster and getting tattooes of Razides across your face. Our figures are the fething best in the world and they're so goddamn awesome that we had to use 30mm bases because 25mm just couldn't contain them!!"

Hey now lets not copy Privateer Press here!

You're right, Warzone should use 32.5mm bases, with a spoiler and flame decals, and 4th dimensional angles, made out of titanium, pre-primed in whatever color you think of really hard of when you hold them. Also they move around the table at your command.

 judgedoug wrote:

You're right, Warzone should use 32.5mm bases, with a spoiler and flame decals, and 4th dimensional angles, made out of titanium, pre-primed in whatever color you think of really hard of when you hold them. Also they move around the table at your command.

Ahh well my comment was aimed at the "SUPER AWESOME DESCRIPTION OF BADASSNESS" that PP is famed for with their page 5

But ok

 Warzone Resurrection wrote:


Option nr1

New Necromutant aka Sgt! NICE!~

 kenshin620 wrote:

 judgedoug wrote:

You're right, Warzone should use 32.5mm bases, with a spoiler and flame decals, and 4th dimensional angles, made out of titanium, pre-primed in whatever color you think of really hard of when you hold them. Also they move around the table at your command.

Ahh well my comment was aimed at the "SUPER AWESOME DESCRIPTION OF BADASSNESS" that PP is famed for with their page 5

But ok

It's all about the base size, baby...

Warzone's so goddamn awesome that they're 7.5 mm more awesome than 40k and 2.5 mm better than PP... 32.5mm bases is the new badass standard!
All the 40k goons will start playing Warzone because of base size envy.
Perfect marketing plan!

Interestingly, what you advocate is kind of the opposite of reality. When a company wants to make a generic version of a popular brand, they'll emulate it pretty carefully, down to colors and product appearance, and the public perceives this as 'generics' (think grocery-store brand or Wal-Mart generic brand) with the associated perception that it's a lot cheaper but probably isn't as good. When a company attempts to establish it's own branding _without positioning themselves as a generic substitute_, then usage of similar designs is viewed by investors as weakness and by consumers as just a 'rip off'.

There is generic copying of a product and then there is using what is effective to launch your own brand. And most times even the borrowing of ideas is just to get a foot in the door. Most companies do start off this way, from automobile manufacturing to game design. They emulate another product with just their own twist, once/if they are succesfull enough to build a name then they may go off the reservation and start having their own ideas.

Lamborghini started by making tractors that were pretty much copies of surplus US military hardware left behind after the war. They were quality and they made a lot of money and name recognition. They then went to produce touring cars, they copied a lot from the competition, using alot of the same technology and designers, they just always made their products different enough that you knew it was a Lambo. Such things as nicer seats, better brakes or sturdier transmission.

When they had the money they went into super cars. Now other people rip of Lambo. It's how products are brought to market. You can be similar without being generic.

 kenshin620 wrote:
Well the be fair many gamers I show Warzone to say "what is that, a ripoff of warhammer?"

Well, it is. I love the setting and all, but just as 40k is derivative of many things, so is Warzone derivative of 40k on a pretty big scale, especially on the fluff side - Durand, unification, his sacrifice, the Apostoles, heresy and so on. There was even a Durand Algeroth show down IIRC.

In other news, the new preview is awesome. I already said that, but we're getting drowned in discussions about base marketing so there...

 His Master's Voice wrote:
Well, that Centurion/Necromutant should make c0un7_z3r0 happy. He looks like he was ripped out of a Bonner illustration.

How nice of you to mention me so I won't be forgotten!

Base sizes? Really? That is what there is going to be a heated debate about? The most easily swapped part of a miniature, the part that you can buy dozens of spares of from countless manufacturers? This is worth having an argument over? Not even scale (which sounds to be 100% compatible), bases.

Look, if people are too picky to swap out bases, then they were likely buying GW already because a model being "official" or not was an important piece of the puzzle to them. Almost any other human being would just do a quick base swap and be done with it.

I can't think of a single, bloody game, that failed because it didn't use GW's standard slotta base. Warmachine/Hordes is doing fine, Mantic (the name in GW generics) is doing fine (and way harder to re-base), and Malifaux is purportedly doing fine. You may also note that Warzone crashed twice before (not that either time was because of the game itself, but rather the company) and previously used the standard 40k base size. Your argument for using the GW base is entirely anecdotal and has no basis in reality that I can see. I'm just amazed because it seems like an odd (mole)hill to die on.

I doubt the game will crash or succeed depending on the base size. I never seemed to be a concern at any point in the base, after all.

It was a really ridiculous point and people called Andrew1975 on it and now he's doubled down and decided to fight over a nonsensical issue.

I think there's loads of room in the market for Warzone to make a lasting return. So far the concept art, renders and the partially complete torso sculpt all look quite promising. As does the scope and model count of the game.

I'm going to keep enjoying the daily updates and will be interested in seeing exactly what is revealed in ten days time.

 judgedoug wrote:


You're right, Warzone should use 32.5mm bases, with a spoiler and flame decals, and 4th dimensional angles, made out of titanium, pre-primed in whatever color you think of really hard of when you hold them. Also they move around the table at your command.

Next week on "PIMP MY BASE"

I can honestly say that if the Dark Legion stuff continues looking this good, they may have a new convert. I always love the art for DL, but the minis were crap. These new ones rock (I love that Razide) and actually capture the feel of a multi-dimensional aggressor that recycles your dead in to its new soldiers. Their big beasties are sure to impress (come on non-gak Mercurian Masculator).

Look I'm not saying that they are doomed if they use different sized bases. I'm just saying that it probably behooves them to keep them standard. It's all going to come down to the miniatures and the sculpts, I'm not even that concerned about the rules. You can always sell miniatures without rules, and the warzone rules were pretty good, with some exceptions. The last few times warzone failed has been because of bad (inconsistent may be a better word, as some of their minis were pretty good) miniatures, if you make good miniatures there are people that are going to buy them and use them for whatever they want. I really think that is going to have to be their strength. The basing issue is small but it will still be an issue for some people, especially people relatively new to the hobby, have 40k armies and want to be able to use their miniatures in both games. If you make people choose, especially newbies, they are going to choose what is popular, easy and guaranteed.

I guess the case in point would be, how many of those plastic bags of warzone miniatures would prince august have sold if they were on a different base? The answer is not nearly as many. Its a trivial thing, but many people don't want to be hassled to change bases, but they are going to want an insurance policy on a game that has repeatedly failed, that insurance policy is standard bases.

These newer people are the people that spend the most money quickly. They are a key demographic for getting a return on capitol.

Listen, don't listen. Doesn't matter. I have tons sci fi minis anyway, including old warzone minis, so I don't really need anything new. I won't be buying any of these unless the sculpts are so good that I get excited about them. At that point for me base size wont matter.

We all know that if the bases are different sizes, there is going to be some kid holding a box, thinking about buying them, when some GW fanboy comes up to him (and there is always a GW fanboy)and tell him not to buy them because he can't use them in 40K, so he's better off just buying some IG or marines, because warzone always dies!

 Ronin_eX wrote:
I love that Razide

Wait, what? Where's that new Razide I haven't seen?

OH GOD JUST WENT TO THEIR FACEBOOK AND SAW IT GOTTA CHANGE MY PANTS BE RIGHT BACK

Well if your looking to make the minis usable in

'as many games' as possible you probably should go for lipped 30mm rounds now as that seems to be the most popular choice for sf games

it's only if your looking to make them usable in the biggest game outthere at present (40K) that 25mm rounds make sense

 Andrew1975 wrote:
Look I'm not saying that they are doomed if they use different sized bases. I'm just saying that it probably behooves them to keep them standard.

Personally I'd consider the 30mm lipped bases to be the new standard, since it seems lots of newer games are using them now. Eventually 40k will be one of the only games still using 25mm slotta bases, and I expect that to change if GW ever thinks it becomes as big of an issue as you've made it out to be here.

 His Master's Voice wrote:

 Ronin_eX wrote:
I love that Razide

Wait, what? Where's that new Razide I haven't seen?

OH GOD JUST WENT TO THEIR FACEBOOK AND SAW IT GOTTA CHANGE MY PANTS BE RIGHT BACK

Indeed, it is perfect. It really makes the concept art just leap off the page.