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If someone really wants to buy new Warzone figs for 40k they will have no problem attaching them to the so-cheap-they're-almost-free 25mm plastic round bases available everywhere.

 Andrew1975 wrote:

 -DE- wrote:
Tell that to all the successful manufacturers that choose to sell their miniatures with 30mm round bases. I don't see anybody lamenting they can't use their Warmachine collection to proxy a 40k army. If somebody wants to use a model by a company that doesn't use 40k bases, they plop it onto a spare base and voila.

Not every company has to suck off Games Workshop.

You're making a mountain out of a molehill.

If I can make a mountain out of a molehill, you know what that means, There is a mole hill! Good marketing gets rid of mole hills.

I'm actually not making anything out of anything. I'm simply stating marketing facts.The bases will be a barrier for some people. That's a fact, maybe not to you or me, but they will be to some people. Good marketing makes things more accessible to the widest audience.

Flames of war is actually a pretty good study. I know plenty of people that didn't get into it because it was too fiddly. Little metal guys, half of them miscast or look that way because casting a rifle at that scale in metal is pretty much an autofail, and then you have to make your own bases. Too much work! The new plastics with bases seam to be selling pretty well though. Why, because it's easy and familiar and the plastic infantry are by far much better quality than the metal.

Infinity and warmahordes are really nothing like 40K. Warzone however is pretty close, it's space guys in armor with guns, where infinity is more like anime and warmahordes is well warmahordes. To be successful in any endevour you have to look at your competition, see what they do well and see what they do poorly, and try to exploit that as much as you can.

I suggest you take some marketing classes, before you enlighten me with more of your "wisdom" such as "suck of Games Workshop" its really short sighted and shows a lack of any real knowledge of what works in the real world.

When has Battlefront not included bases for it's Flames of War figures? I think I got plastic bases in my old generic 15mm infantry boxes before the Flames of War branding back in like 2002...

Interestingly, what you advocate is kind of the opposite of reality. When a company wants to make a generic version of a popular brand, they'll emulate it pretty carefully, down to colors and product appearance, and the public perceives this as 'generics' (think grocery-store brand or Wal-Mart generic brand) with the associated perception that it's a lot cheaper but probably isn't as good. When a company attempts to establish it's own branding _without positioning themselves as a generic substitute_, then usage of similar designs is viewed by investors as weakness and by consumers as just a 'rip off'.

Basically, will Warzone's marketing be:

"hey look at our not-Chaos and our not-Sisters of Battle, aren't they groovy? i mean we have our own setting and all, but check it out, they're the same scale and have 25mm circle bases so you can use them for anything!!"

or

"Warzone is here to rape your dog and kick your mother with how awesomely badass explosion of SWEET this fether is. Uberawesome designs and smooth-ass rules means that this game is the be-all-and-end-all of wargaming. Once you roll your first d20 you'll be throwing your old pansy ass space elves into the dumpster and getting tattooes of Razides across your face. Our figures are the fething best in the world and they're so goddamn awesome that we had to use 30mm bases because 25mm just couldn't contain them!!"

 kenshin620 wrote:

 judgedoug wrote:
Basically, will Warzone's marketing be:

"hey look at our not-Chaos and our not-Sisters of Battle, aren't they groovy? i mean we have our own setting and all, but check it out, they're the same scale and have 25mm circle bases so you can use them for anything!!"

or

"Warzone is here to rape your dog and kick your mother with how awesomely badass explosion of SWEET this fether is. Uberawesome designs and smooth-ass rules means that this game is the be-all-and-end-all of wargaming. Once you roll your first d20 you'll be throwing your old pansy ass space elves into the dumpster and getting tattooes of Razides across your face. Our figures are the fething best in the world and they're so goddamn awesome that we had to use 30mm bases because 25mm just couldn't contain them!!"

Hey now lets not copy Privateer Press here!

You're right, Warzone should use 32.5mm bases, with a spoiler and flame decals, and 4th dimensional angles, made out of titanium, pre-primed in whatever color you think of really hard of when you hold them. Also they move around the table at your command.

 kenshin620 wrote:

 judgedoug wrote:

You're right, Warzone should use 32.5mm bases, with a spoiler and flame decals, and 4th dimensional angles, made out of titanium, pre-primed in whatever color you think of really hard of when you hold them. Also they move around the table at your command.

Ahh well my comment was aimed at the "SUPER AWESOME DESCRIPTION OF BADASSNESS" that PP is famed for with their page 5

But ok

It's all about the base size, baby...

Warzone's so goddamn awesome that they're 7.5 mm more awesome than 40k and 2.5 mm better than PP... 32.5mm bases is the new badass standard!
All the 40k goons will start playing Warzone because of base size envy.
Perfect marketing plan!

 Ronin_eX wrote:

 His Master's Voice wrote:

 Ronin_eX wrote:
I love that Razide

Wait, what? Where's that new Razide I haven't seen?

OH GOD JUST WENT TO THEIR FACEBOOK AND SAW IT GOTTA CHANGE MY PANTS BE RIGHT BACK

Indeed, it is perfect. It really makes the concept art just leap off the page.

This one?
Is that resin or 3D printing or whaaaat?

 c0un7_z3r0 wrote:
Looks good but why aren't they wearing armor?

Aren't they replacing these guys?

http://shop.princeaugust.ie/warzone-mutant-chronicles-wargame/cybertronic-mega-corporation/tg9508pb-warzone-cybertronic-chasseurs-4-figures/

Dermal plates seems more armor than a wifebeater


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Warzone Resurrection wrote:

yes, 3 variants of legs, 3 torso, 5 arms , 2 weapons, 8 heads in one pack,
each pack is 5 models.

AND all of that for price of Jack Daniel's! ))

$21.99 ?

Economy of scale has a lot to do with pricing as well. Going to assume here that Warzone 3 will be more on the high-quality, boutique-miniature level side of design and distribution at first.

Assuming a level of success, maybe if they partner with WGF and do hard plastic sprues, we'll see War of Spanish Succession style pricing of 36 guys for $20.

 Andrew1975 wrote:
Nothing I have seen so far justifies $4 a miniature.

If you're going to compare costs, do not compare resin to injection molded plastic.

Games Workshop charges $20 for a finecast resin miniature. If these are $4 for resin miniatures, then they are indeed significantly cheaper than Games Workshop.

 Andrew1975 wrote:

If you're going to compare costs, do not compare resin to injection molded plastic.

Games Workshop charges $20 for a finecast resin miniature. If these are $4 for resin miniatures, then they are indeed significantly cheaper than Games Workshop.

Again just because GW finecast is stupid expensive, that does not justify anything. Mantic works in restic and doesn't charge nearly as much. I just got Sedition wars, and got some nice restic models for about $1 a piece.
I'm not a fan of resin or restic really. The technology is there to create detailed affordable, muliti part, multi pose plastic. Use it!

Mantic's restic models range from $2.50 apiece (wraiths) to $3.50 (gore riders) to $6 (Dreadball MVP's). Restic is cheaper to manufacture than resin.

Scibor resin miniatures are about $9 for an infantry model. Games workshop resin miniatures are about $20 for an infantry model. Mierce Miniatures are about $16 for an infantry model.

Metal/pewter miniatures can be anywhere from $5 apiece to $15 or more (Avatars of War, some Reaper figures).

Sedition Wars metal miniature are actually on average $15 for a human sized model.

So $4 to $5 for a resin infantry model is quite good.

Injection plastic model can certainly be very cheap - pennies worth of material. Then the company can charge whatever they want (ranging from Wargames Factory at $2 for a sprue to GW at $42.50 for a sprue). But it involves a much greater investment for the manufacture of steel molds. Don't assume every company is Dreamforge - Dreamforge ran a successful Kickstarter that only paid for a small portion and now WGF are part-owners of the company and Mark has a very large debt to be paid off with each sale of a Dreamforge kit.

So we've got a new company producing Warzone with an unknown quantity of capital - do they dump $10k to make a sprue of 5 Chasseurs that will probably have an MSRP of $14.99 or just do 3D printed resin and sell 'em for $20-$25?

Right now Warzone will be having another another rebirth with some hardcore fans clamoring for it but mostly an untested market.

This is actually one of the only good reasons I've heard for Kickstarting something... see if the marketplace actually wants it. Not a preorder, but see what level of interest there would be to perhaps actually make plastic kits of Legionairres and Chasseurs, etc.

 Kroothawk wrote:

 Andrew1975 wrote:
Sure, but look at the miniatures for Infinity or Mercs, they are pretty amazing, these are not. Unless you want an army of guys just kind of standing around. They can charge whatever they want, but there has to be some kind of justification for $4 or $10 models. I'm just not seeing it here.

I think, after 500 posts with basically the same content, based on 2 preview pics, we all got your point. No need to repeat it in another 500 posts.

Naw dawg, lemme explain to you in greater detail how in my opinion it's not worth four bucks and they should have 25mm bases and stats published for use in 40k

1st and 3rd look amazing. 1st looks closer i think to original attilas; but i think the 3rd looks the best.

A KS makes the most sense, actually. Especially if the stretch goals included hard-plastic sprues.

phil751 wrote:
Usual waves of negativity from the very vocal minority of the dakka community i see . GOA pulled so i guess this is the new target. Just waiting for valera to join in with his normal cynicism guess hes still laughing about the demise of the GOA kickstarter. I swear if a company came up with awesome ruleset stunning models made in metal/plastic/resin (of course whichever material would be wrong ) and were giving it away gratis there would still be a bunch of people here ready to kick it in the teeth
seriously is this section of the community actually into wargames at all.

Oh no doubt. At least there are space zombies in this one.

 Azazelx wrote:
I'm personally quite disappointed in the fact that it's a KS, and moreso that it's a low-value KS (no savings from RRP - so why bother?) I'll follow this thread and reply to commentary from time to time, but my excitement in the re-release has pretty much been squashed - at least until it hits retail, when I'll probably buy a few things rather than going big on the KS. Though I'm now much more likely to dig out my old figures and 1st Edition rulebook for some skirmish fun at home with friends, so that's something at least.

Not to pick on you specifically, but mainly to everyone who's like "I HATE THIS IT'S A KICKSTARTER WAAHHH", they've gone out of their way to appease the anti-Ks crowd and to point out that you don't need to participate in the KS, and can still just buy whatever you want when the release date hits:

"We understand some people are not keen on the concept of ‘Kickstarter’ and as such wanted to explain a couple of things.
1. We intend for all products we have developed so far for the first 3 factions to be available in June 2013. The Kickstarter project (its success or failure) will not affect these plans.
2. We have a stretched goal for ‘Kickstarter’ which will allow us to manufacture the ‘starter boxes’ in plastic. If we do not meet this the starter will be made (like the rest of the initial releases) in high grade resin.
If you do not wish to support a Kickstarter project, but still want a Warzone Resurrection force (or two), you will be able to pre-order them from our website (warzonegame.com), after the Kickstarter, to receive in June. Or you can order them for near-immediate delivery after the release date from the same site. "

Or possibly spun-cast like Trollforged.

 CorpBoltman wrote:
Well, I'm a little bit disappointed by the lack of Imperials (and here I am making a cosplay and everything! jeez! ). HOWEVER I really hope this is successful, since that'll mean you can get in the other Mega Corps later. And at the rate its going I'm more than certain you'll get there.

I'm going to wait until that point myself. Good luck Prodos Games!

Well Capitol is 80k so maybe Imperial at 160k? I'm thinking this KS is more like a Mantic one where the game is coming out anyway, but KS will improve the components and also help fund the planned releases much, much sooner.

 His Master's Voice wrote:

Taarnak wrote:
You are sounding a bit defensive HMV. Just an observation.

An observation based on what?

Look, I don't really care what people think of those, I only cared about my customer being satisfied. Both Prodos and Paradox reviewed and accepted my redesign, I got paid, case closed. I don't even mind people coming up with bs like 'cardboard boxes cosplay'. Most people on the internet know everything about everything, including visual design, so who cares.

Really, Prodos can and should scrap my work and do another round if they think they'll sell more stuff that way.

Did you design the Bauhaus concepts? Consider me a fan, then. After seeing the full shots on the forum, they actually look like plausible real-life designs (especially the Vulkan, looks like the current USA/Darpa powered armor that's being developed, with armor put on). Retains the style and makes it realistic.

 warboss wrote:

 judgedoug wrote:
Did you design the Bauhaus concepts? Consider me a fan, then. After seeing the full shots on the forum, they actually look like plausible real-life designs (especially the Vulkan, looks like the current USA/Darpa powered armor that's being developed, with armor put on). Retains the style and makes it realistic.

Can you repost the pics from the facebook forums for those of us not into the social media scene?

These are what I'm talking about

Warzone/Prodos,
I'd recommend posting on TheMiniaturesPage - there's several active threads there and a lot of those people don't visit Dakka and other forums.
http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=294789
http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=296132

 praetor24 wrote:
(I mean compared to the first day, the ones that followed were a bit disappointing

The 2nd day had more pledges and backers than the first...

If it's spun-cast plastic then it'll require superglue; and is probably what they're talking about (can use the same molds basically)

 Octopussy wrote:
Spun cast plastic, isnt that what Bones is? A way of producing ultra cheap minis as fast as metall. This sems like the first step not something you will do if you get a pledge of 70.000 quid. Are thay talking of injektion molds?

Spuncast plastic as in Trollforged. All the details of metal but cheaper.

 praetor24 wrote:

Another thing that I would be curious to know is what kind of plastic do you intend to use, if you reach the 70k, e.g. I have seen Mantic's plastic models and I am appalled by their quality.

Mantic's plastic sprues are done by Renedra (undead/elves/dwarves/orcs/etc). Do you mean their restic/sprueless plastic? (gore riders/undead cavalry/etc)

 praetor24 wrote:

 judgedoug wrote:

 praetor24 wrote:

Another thing that I would be curious to know is what kind of plastic do you intend to use, if you reach the 70k, e.g. I have seen Mantic's plastic models and I am appalled by their quality.

Mantic's plastic sprues are done by Renedra (undead/elves/dwarves/orcs/etc). Do you mean their restic/sprueless plastic? (gore riders/undead cavalry/etc)

I am speaking about their zombies. First and only experience with their plastic.

Yeah, those are definitely Renedra; basically the same company that did GW's plastics until GW bought their own equipment several years back. Yours has gotta be the first negative thing I've heard about that sprue; it's generally viewed as the best plastic zombie kit on the market, superior in detail to GW's older zombies and Wargames Factory's first zombie kit (though their new zombie female sprues are fantastic). Renedra does the sprues for Mantic, Perry, Warlord Games, and several other companies...
though personally I'd like to see Warzone use Wargames Factory, as they are cheaper than Renedra and Wargames Factory has just produced the highest quality plastics in the wargames market with Dreamforge's stuff.

There's also the company that does Victrix, which isn't Renedra or WGF...

sometimes the plastic does matter, or you'll get that soft shiny plastic; sometimes the sprues need to be acid-washed; etc.

 kenshin620 wrote:

 judgedoug wrote:
There's also the company that does Victrix, which isn't Renedra or WGF...

Oh well of course theres others.
Were Defiance Marines done in house? I think they were
Eccentric and Proxie are in house, though far from mass market consumption in my mind
Unsure who HaT uses, though their quality is borderline soft plastic (which they usually make outside their small 28mm line)

So theres lots of routes with plastics. Though as I mentioned with a proposed deadline of June 2013 they better get cracking on choosing if they want to do hard plastic, especially if it is done overseas (the shipping delays on dream forge come to mind)

Defiance UAMC were done by a plastics manufacturer in Boston who hadn't done anything with that much detail before. It was like the only delay from them that made sense (especially as they posted continual updates showing the sprues being cut etc, and finally the manufacturer even wrote a letter saying, sorry it took so long)

Alot of the smaller 1/72 plastics companies are actually spuncast (hence no outside sprue)

but back on topic slightly,
Warzone could be done with 3d printed abs plastic?

Cergorach wrote:

 judgedoug wrote:

Yeah, those are definitely Renedra; basically the same company that did GW's plastics until GW bought their own equipment several years back.

Hahahah!!!

No! Absolutely no! Renedra is run by ex-GW employees, Renedra has never produced anything for GW, and GW has had their plastic manufacturing in house for a long, long time. Far, far longer then a couple of years. Renedra would simply never had the capacity to produce the number of sprues/molds GW required, even in the early days of GW. I would estimate that GW has done their plastics in house for two decades, maybe even longer.

Less than that. There's an article in a an old WD where GW discusses how they've moved plastics production in-house and plan on producing more kits. I'm wondering if it's worth the trouble trying to locate it.

Hmm, about ten seconds later I've found the answer:
http://www.renedra.co.uk/history.html
Terry Ardener - "10 years later in 1985 I started my own Toolmaking business in Wisbech and one of my first customers was Games Workshop who were in their early stages of Plastic miniatures. In 1998 GW bought out my business and I continued working for them until I took retirement in February 2007."

So Terry Ardener did GW's plastics as another company until they bought it out in 1998. So 15 years ago. Then him/his sons started Renedra, their first wargames kit was Perry ACW.

But wayyyy off-topic now.


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 kenshin620 wrote:
Originally they were done by Renedra until the goblins (which actually backfired with a crappy chinese company)

Actually I think the deal is that Mantic supplied the company with metal figures as they lacked 3-ups, and the pantograph therefore had much less detail to work with vs a normal 3-up and wayy too many undercuts. Result = soft figs. Regardless I just painted 200 of 'em and they were okay. Not terrible, but nowhere near good. Quality reminded me of the old GW Fantasy Regiments box set.

 Duncan_Idaho wrote:
The detail is seemingly there, the question is ho well will it translate into a painted mini. The last Mercs release did not translate that well.

Intrigued, do you have a link?

 Andrew1975 wrote:
Just looked at another kickstarter that I was hoping would do well for nostalgia reasons. Rogue Trooper. Its not doing too well.

It's at £18k out of a £6k goal and has gone through 4 stretch goals already with 17 days left... How do you define 'not doing well'?