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Not keen on the fact that it didn't get a redesign. Next thing we know, Great Gray will return in it's horrendous 1ed form.

it did get a redesign

it shrunk in the wash!

This is why I reacted in the new render, from start the WZ resurrection seemed to take WZ to the modern era, new realistic designs that are respectful to the past, but bringing it to the much needed future, the Vulkan redesign was a splendid indicator of that, then the complains came, I feel Prodos bowed to the "nostalgia" crowd and from that time on the whole project devolves, the last render looks straight from the 90s and grizly seems unchanged.

The tank is cool and all but will it fit into the current format of the game? And should't those troops we've yet to see renders of be prioritized?

This was apparently done as a tandem bonus with another company doing a KS right now, so it likely hasn't taken time out of the other stuff. That and it is land raider sized, closer to Bonner's conception of it, so it won't be like bringing a Baneblade to a skirmish. Should play well with things likemPraetorian Behemoths and the like.

It also offers a great boost to people looking for something impressive.

My guess is the reason it only saw minor design tweaks over the Forgeworldmkit is that coming up with a new concept from the ground up would have been eating in to the money that is going elsewhere. Thanks to Prodos for the nod, I think it looks quite good, myself.

So now we get a fraking Grizzly all that is left is for the Venusian Martial to get a shiny new model and all is right in my gaming world!

I was excepting from the renders this was going to be about the size of a IG leman Russ. Upon hearing that it was going to be a land raider sized kit in resin I was shocked. I was shocked still that that people what that brick of resin to be EVEN BIGGER?!?!?!
O____o

IMHO I think land raider sized is more then large enough for something that I thought was a skirmish game! lol


But onto my biggest beef with this model, it suffers ALOT from not getting updated. All the new Bauhaus stuff seems to be about alot of crisp lines and angled armour. I feel it would look out of place next to the new Bauhaus troops and Vulcan. =/

I know the guys who played the orginal game are probly excited and full of nostalgia right now. But that tank looks way to cartoony for it's own good. It looks like it should be in a metal slug game. (Nothing ageist metal slug of course, it just looks out of place next to all the other models we can seen so far.)


Also what the heck is that tower on the back of it even suppose to be? Some sort of exhaust or something? A cannon pointed straight up in the air?

I think it's a lookout tower.

 Lockark wrote:
I was excepting from the renders this was going to be about the size of a IG leman Russ. Upon hearing that it was going to be a land raider sized kit in resin I was shocked. I was shocked still that that people what that brick of resin to be EVEN BIGGER?!?!?!
O____o

IMHO I think land raider sized is more then large enough for something that I thought was a skirmish game! lol

Yeah, that was my thought. I know people loved the big-huge-mclarge version, but it was unworkable for skirmish scale (even on the larger end of it). Something that is huge for an MBT is just about as large as you want in these kinds of games. It will compare well to a lot of the big beasties from the Dark Legion. I'd definitely want one in my corner if I had to go toe-to-toe with a Praetorian Behemoth.

Either way, its scale has always been kind of wonky. The proportions on the original model were a bit too tall to me and it looked a bit squished. Now, it may just be the angle of the render, but the new one looks pretty squat and is perhaps only a bit smaller than the one pictured in Bonner's painting of it (my old sig). The guy poking out of the turret wasn't utterly dwarfed by it (looked to be 1/3 to 1/2 as large as it, taking the shoulders in to account (sub-parens: how did he get back in that thing?)) so it looks pretty close to that scale to me. Much bigger and they would need to create a set of 40k-scale Apocalypse rules that required much larger tables.

But onto my biggest beef with this model, it suffers ALOT from not getting updated. All the new Bauhaus stuff seems to be about alot of crisp lines and angled armour. I feel it would look out of place next to the new Bauhaus troops and Vulcan. =/

I know the guys who played the orginal game are probly excited and full of nostalgia right now. But that tank looks way to cartoony for it's own good. It looks like it should be in a metal slug game. (Nothing ageist metal slug of course, it just looks out of place next to all the other models we can seen so far.)

I think the reason for this is two fold. The first is that redesigning a mini on that scale would be a stretch goal in itself, and this is being provided with no other pretenses other than being a gift that will hopefully boost things. The second is that the Grizzly's lines are really iconic of some of the retro stuff in the setting. That may irk some people but, well, redesigning it would equally irk others. And since they would have to spend money on a massive redesign along with new concept art and yadda, yadda, yadda. Probably just a better idea to use the original model and art assets instead. Creating a model from early concept to finished product takes a lot of time and money and a kit this size isn't usually something small companies do on a whim. So I can forgive them if they just used the original whole cloth rather than doing a complete re-working.

And if it ends up parting a few of us grognards with £55 then all the better. I'll certainly be grabbing one when the fundage frees up and it will go well with how mixed my Bauhaus force is going to look with these new releases. But I can see why some people hoping for something new would dislike it. But at the same time, it has a place in so many iconic images that changing it too much would make it hard to use 'em in the game (cover of the Bauhaus sourcebook and the cover of the 2nd Edition boxed set have Grizzly tanks on them). When it comes to less well-covered vehicles (Wolf, Cobra, and others) then they can be a bit more free wheeling (and they're smaller, so probably cheaper to design and create).

But give them a few years as the Warzone guys and people can start trying to wheedle a resculpt out of them when they can stop having to prove themselves to everyone and their dog.

Also what the heck is that tower on the back of it even suppose to be? Some sort of exhaust or something? A cannon pointed straight up in the air?

Observation tower. Think of it like the sensor boom on an Ogre Tank (I think it could be retracted as well). But since technology has degraded, advanced sensors were kind of rare, so they used that as a method of forward scouting. Like a crow's nest on a ship... but the ship is a giant tank.

Edit - Just to give people an idea of the size of a full Grizzly that is to-scale with the RPG sizes

It is crewed by 24 people and has the dimensions of 30m X 12m and can be (with periscope up) 15m at its tallest point.

The version we are getting is 12.5m long by 7m wide (no idea on height).

So to be to-scale with the original specs in the RPG it would need to be ~17" long and ~6.75 wide. It is close to the right width, but only half the given length. I am unable to find dimensions on the old version though. How did it compare (looking at the sizes, I think it may have actually been close though).

But if they wanted it to be usable in the wargame, a downsize was needed. And a 12m long tank is nothing to sneeze at (an Abrams is 8m long and 3m wide for example). Still an intimidating chunk of armour in my mind (and still bigger than the given dimensions of the Wolf MBT in the same book).

Re: The size of the Grizzly.
The dimensions listed in the original Bauhaus book are 30m long, 7m high, 12m wide. In 1/56th scale this translates to 20-7/8" long, 5-7/8" tall and 8-3/8" wide.

The Forge World Models resin kit did a fair job of replicating these dimensions, although it got stretched a little in height. I sold mine so don't have one to measure... Little help here? Who knew that WarZone would be back yet again?

Based on the size of the tank commander figure, the wonderful Paul Bonner Grizzly illustrated on the cover of the first Bauhaus book is nowhere near the size of the Forge World Models Grizzly, but I think it would be bigger than a Land Raider.

If Prodos wants to do a Bauhaus main battle tank in the 4" x 7" size range, they should consider doing the MBT-42 Wolf MK2. Making a Grizzly in the 4" x 7" size will not leave a size slot for the presumably much more common Wolf tank.

The wolf is actually smaller than the Grizzly they are giving us by a fair enough margin to matter (smaller than an Abrams actually). And from some back of the napkin maths the Bonner Grizzly is close enough for jazz. A man-sized thing in 28mm is close to an inch across, and the commander in the painting spans roughly half the turret's width (not counting the searchlight in either). Looking at the basic proportions of the turret of the Prodos version, the turret is ~2" wide (takes up about half the width of the tank and comes within a fraction of an inch of the treads.

So it is pretty close to being the Bonner-Grizzly instead of the Mutant Chronicles Grizzly (which the FW version was pretty close to, in not way to damn tall).

A Wolf would be 2.8" wide and 4.5" long. So a little over half the size of the Grizzly. I think there is room for both all things considered. The Grizzly is still huge, but no longer a land-cruiser that could never see the light of day on the table.

Besides, copying a Bonner painting instead of some other source should make a few people happy. Colour me a fan of this sucker. Before I actually calculated it out I was afraid it would be too small, but I have managed to reassure myself.

Now to convince the wife that I need a tank with a periscope!

The periscope is for long range sighting of the coaxial heavy mortar in the turret. Park it behind a forest raise periscope and commence heavy mortar bombardment.I have always dug that!

 Ronin_eX wrote:
[q
Observation tower. Think of it like the sensor boom on an Ogre Tank (I think it could be retracted as well). But since technology has degraded, advanced sensors were kind of rare, so they used that as a method of forward scouting. Like a crow's nest on a ship... but the ship is a giant tank.

Edit - Just to give people an idea of the size of a full Grizzly that is to-scale with the RPG sizes

It is crewed by 24 people and has the dimensions of 30m X 12m and can be (with periscope up) 15m at its tallest point.

The version we are getting is 12.5m long by 7m wide (no idea on height).

So to be to-scale with the original specs in the RPG it would need to be ~17" long and ~6.75 wide. It is close to the right width, but only half the given length. I am unable to find dimensions on the old version though. How did it compare (looking at the sizes, I think it may have actually been close though).
.

Very interesting, thanks for the background. I think the rectangle area on the front looks like it might be a signal system for a sort of semaphore communication system.

I had no idea that they had given it so much attention in the RPG. Has anyone ever found out why they decided to copy/borrow the Myazaki "Akuyaku Bad Guy #1" tank design? Did they just think it was an obscure japanese design that no one would notice, or was there some attempt at licensing like the original FASA attempt at using Macross/Dougram designs?

 BDJV wrote:
The periscope is for long range sighting of the coaxial heavy mortar in the turret. Park it behind a forest raise periscope and commence heavy mortar bombardment.I have always dug that!

Yeah, it was a favourite bit of mine. Though if possible I will probably build mine with the periscope down. But it always seemed delightfully retro. Even as a lover of some of the new design choices, this was a nice nod from Prodos for us long-time players that never had a chance to grab one of these puppies. Call it nostalgia (though I still love that painting from Bonner to this day; probably one of the only things he did for MC that really resonated with me) but I like it, like it, yes I do.

 Ronin_eX wrote:

But onto my biggest beef with this model, it suffers ALOT from not getting updated. All the new Bauhaus stuff seems to be about alot of crisp lines and angled armour. I feel it would look out of place next to the new Bauhaus troops and Vulcan. =/

I know the guys who played the orginal game are probly excited and full of nostalgia right now. But that tank looks way to cartoony for it's own good. It looks like it should be in a metal slug game. (Nothing ageist metal slug of course, it just looks out of place next to all the other models we can seen so far.)

I think the reason for this is two fold. The first is that redesigning a mini on that scale would be a stretch goal in itself, and this is being provided with no other pretenses other than being a gift that will hopefully boost things. The second is that the Grizzly's lines are really iconic of some of the retro stuff in the setting. That may irk some people but, well, redesigning it would equally irk others. And since they would have to spend money on a massive redesign along with new concept art and yadda, yadda, yadda. Probably just a better idea to use the original model and art assets instead. Creating a model from early concept to finished product takes a lot of time and money and a kit this size isn't usually something small companies do on a whim. So I can forgive them if they just used the original whole cloth rather than doing a complete re-working.

And if it ends up parting a few of us grognards with £55 then all the better. I'll certainly be grabbing one when the fundage frees up and it will go well with how mixed my Bauhaus force is going to look with these new releases. But I can see why some people hoping for something new would dislike it. But at the same time, it has a place in so many iconic images that changing it too much would make it hard to use 'em in the game (cover of the Bauhaus sourcebook and the cover of the 2nd Edition boxed set have Grizzly tanks on them). When it comes to less well-covered vehicles (Wolf, Cobra, and others) then they can be a bit more free wheeling (and they're smaller, so probably cheaper to design and create).

But give them a few years as the Warzone guys and people can start trying to wheedle a resculpt out of them when they can stop having to prove themselves to everyone and their dog.

Sadly I don't have any nostalgia to make it look awesome for me.All I see when I look at it, is a silly out of place tank. sorry.
=C

I could see how it could help be a nice centre piece unit for someone mixing the new and old units together thow like your self. So I don't blame you for being a fan of it. lol



I also have to agree anything that helps them hit that 70k plastic troop stretch goal, and hopefully even capitol in time is only a good thing in my book.

 Lockark wrote:
I was excepting from the renders this was going to be about the size of a IG leman Russ. Upon hearing that it was going to be a land raider sized kit in resin I was shocked. I was shocked still that that people what that brick of resin to be EVEN BIGGER?!?!?!
O____o

IMHO I think land raider sized is more then large enough for something that I thought was a skirmish game! lol


But onto my biggest beef with this model, it suffers ALOT from not getting updated. All the new Bauhaus stuff seems to be about alot of crisp lines and angled armour. I feel it would look out of place next to the new Bauhaus troops and Vulcan. =/

I know the guys who played the orginal game are probly excited and full of nostalgia right now. But that tank looks way to cartoony for it's own good. It looks like it should be in a metal slug game. (Nothing ageist metal slug of course, it just looks out of place next to all the other models we can seen so far.)


Also what the heck is that tower on the back of it even suppose to be? Some sort of exhaust or something? A cannon pointed straight up in the air?

Some people will never happy. If I get a Grizzly I want a Grizzly that allows me to play without having to build an extension to my living room for the thing. Never saw the 1st version close but I think this one will be quite nice and I'm mussing dropping 2 of my starters for it.

M.

 Ronin_eX wrote:

A Wolf would be 2.8" wide and 4.5" long. So a little over half the size of the Grizzly. I think there is room for both all things considered. The Grizzly is still huge, but no longer a land-cruiser that could never see the light of day on the table.

A GW Rhino is 3" wide by 4.5" long, the same size a you are suggesting for the Wolf.

I just don't see how this is going to fit into the footprint of a Rhino:



There is a severe disconnect between the dimensions for the Grizzly vs the dimensions for the Wolf in the Bauhaus book. Wolf as dimensioned is much too small for a heroic Sci-fi MBT. I would like to see it 3.5" wide by 7" or so.

Here are a couple of sculpts I was working on when Excelsior lost the license:

Updated Cobra Hull:





Dark Legion Reaver APC

 Lockark wrote:

 Ronin_eX wrote:

But onto my biggest beef with this model, it suffers ALOT from not getting updated. All the new Bauhaus stuff seems to be about alot of crisp lines and angled armour. I feel it would look out of place next to the new Bauhaus troops and Vulcan. =/

I know the guys who played the orginal game are probly excited and full of nostalgia right now. But that tank looks way to cartoony for it's own good. It looks like it should be in a metal slug game. (Nothing ageist metal slug of course, it just looks out of place next to all the other models we can seen so far.)

I think the reason for this is two fold. The first is that redesigning a mini on that scale would be a stretch goal in itself, and this is being provided with no other pretenses other than being a gift that will hopefully boost things. The second is that the Grizzly's lines are really iconic of some of the retro stuff in the setting. That may irk some people but, well, redesigning it would equally irk others. And since they would have to spend money on a massive redesign along with new concept art and yadda, yadda, yadda. Probably just a better idea to use the original model and art assets instead. Creating a model from early concept to finished product takes a lot of time and money and a kit this size isn't usually something small companies do on a whim. So I can forgive them if they just used the original whole cloth rather than doing a complete re-working.

And if it ends up parting a few of us grognards with £55 then all the better. I'll certainly be grabbing one when the fundage frees up and it will go well with how mixed my Bauhaus force is going to look with these new releases. But I can see why some people hoping for something new would dislike it. But at the same time, it has a place in so many iconic images that changing it too much would make it hard to use 'em in the game (cover of the Bauhaus sourcebook and the cover of the 2nd Edition boxed set have Grizzly tanks on them). When it comes to less well-covered vehicles (Wolf, Cobra, and others) then they can be a bit more free wheeling (and they're smaller, so probably cheaper to design and create).

But give them a few years as the Warzone guys and people can start trying to wheedle a resculpt out of them when they can stop having to prove themselves to everyone and their dog.

Sadly I don't have any nostalgia to make it look awesome for me.All I see when I look at it, is a silly out of place tank. sorry.
=C

I could see how it could help be a nice centre piece unit for someone mixing the new and old units together thow like your self. So I don't blame you for being a fan of it. lol



I also have to agree anything that helps them hit that 70k plastic troop stretch goal, and hopefully even capitol in time is only a good thing in my book.

That's okay, honestly it is, but it's nice to give something to established fans as well, we are the guys that kept playing it and demoing it to friends when it was dead to the world. But again, the bigger point is creating a Land Raider size kit from scratch is expensive. So kill two birds with one stone, save money and say thank you to the guys who were probably your very first supporters. If it doesn't do something for you then save the £55 and pump it in to things you like the look of. Not everyone has to like every mini in a game line, just someone. So just think of Prodos subsidizing your later cool stuff by toying with my emotions and you should feel better.

@timd

Eh, that is one of the issues with things that were only ever depicted in a single piece of art, especially in the RPG alone. Often times the designs as they were drawn were at odds with the source material. The Wolf is roughly the size of a modern MBT. But you're right, the art-piece looks like it would give the Ratte a run for its money. But even with that, it is easy enough to make something MBT-looking within a 4.5"X3" footprint. I mean, a pred sans sponsons is pretty close (Leman Russ are a bit on the big and tall side for an MBT) and with the way the Wolf is drawn, if you keep the secondary turrets in line with the main body then you should be able to pull it off.

But since it only has the one art piece in the original RPG, I say just redesign it. Not like the Grizzly looks much like its rendition in the same book outside of that teardrop shape (the turret and gun are totally different for one). So this would be a great chance to inject some NeuBauhaus in to a design that a lot of people don't have stock in.

For me a Grizzly is a Grizzly and its biiiig. I will buy this one as a collector, but i would mutch rather have Prodos make a Wolf as 4 x 7 inch tank.

Well the perspective in that picture makes the Grizzly look larger than it might be as it is higher on the slope than the Martial. Just sayin'.

That said I think the old one (which I own) was too large and the new one is a wee bit too small.

 Ronin_eX wrote:


@timd

Eh, that is one of the issues with things that were only ever depicted in a single piece of art, especially in the RPG alone. Often times the designs as they were drawn were at odds with the source material. The Wolf is roughly the size of a modern MBT. But you're right, the art-piece looks like it would give the Ratte a run for its money. But even with that, it is easy enough to make something MBT-looking within a 4.5"X3" footprint. I mean, a pred sans sponsons is pretty close (Leman Russ are a bit on the big and tall side for an MBT) and with the way the Wolf is drawn, if you keep the secondary turrets in line with the main body then you should be able to pull it off.

But since it only has the one art piece in the original RPG, I say just redesign it. Not like the Grizzly looks much like its rendition in the same book outside of that teardrop shape (the turret and gun are totally different for one). So this would be a great chance to inject some NeuBauhaus in to a design that a lot of people don't have stock in.

IMO anything based on the Rhino or its footprint (Predator) is a light tank. Leman Russ and some of the Tau stuff seem to be as close to MBTs as 40K comes. Might be nice to see some realistically proportioned tanks (length to width) done with over the top WarZone exaggeration. Would love to see the Wolf done pretty much as the illustration shows it.

The Grizzly render is an improvement over the FWM kit, but it still has quite a ways to go before it reaches the quality of the other new renders we have seen. I would start with the Bonner image to get the front of the tank done right and then go from there to update it. It looks to me like they used the FWM Grizzly as the basis for their design, which is not a good thing. The FWM hull was based on a the hull from a 1/16 scale Sherman tank, which is why the glacis plate is so steep compared to the Bonner illustration. The steep glacis plate throws off a lot of other stuff like the front cupolas and the height of the tracks above the glacis.

Stuff that I would like to see fixed on the render compared to the Bonner illo:
Glacis plate angle is too steep and glacis needs to be slightly curved. (Copied FWM model)
Cupolas on the glacis need to be moved up. (Copied FWM model)
Track run needs to be almost flush with the glacis, not raised so far above it. (Copied FWM model)
Track links need to be wider. (Copied FWM model)
Front of the side plates need to be rounded per Bonner.
Turret needs work on the shape. Its considerably more complex than the render.
Guns need to be moved back to Bonner configuration.(Copied FWM model)
Searchlight should be smaller. (Copied FWM model)
Front bumper. (Copied FWM model)

Other possible udates:
Reduce the height of the track paddles by 50% and give them that beautiful Bonner curved shape.

Tim

timd wrote:

@timd
Stuff that I would like to see fixed on the render compared to the Bonner illo:
Glacis plate angle is too steep and glacis needs to be slightly curved. (Copied FWM model)
Cupolas on the glacis need to be moved up. (Copied FWM model)
Track run needs to be almost flush with the glacis, not raised so far above it. (Copied FWM model)
Track links need to be wider. (Copied FWM model)
Front of the side plates need to be rounded per Bonner.
Turret needs work on the shape. Its considerably more complex than the render.
Guns need to be moved back to Bonner configuration.(Copied FWM model)
Searchlight should be smaller. (Copied FWM model)
Front bumper. (Copied FWM model)

Other possible udates:
Reduce the height of the track paddles by 50% and give them that beautiful Bonner curved shape.

Tim

I vote for these changes, it would make it look sooo much better (it looks good as it is but there are room for improvement)!

Taking the turret-guy as a reference a Grizzly would be approx the same size as a KV-5, only the turret being a bit smaller.

 Ronin_eX wrote:

Reduce the height of the track paddles by 50% and give them that beautiful boner curved shape.

Fixed

This is an essential change, though. Otherwise I'm afraid to think about the damage each time those thin resin paddles bump into something.

From the text though... they might not even make resin molds... it mentions printing, which would lead me to believe it will be 3D printing.

 Mathieu Raymond wrote:
From the text though... they might not even make resin molds... it mentions printing, which would lead me to believe it will be 3D printing.

I doubt they're going to mass-produce by printing, that's not economically sensible.

TemplarsCrusade, a medium famous youtuber (^^) reviews the necromutants and razide prototypes. Pretty sweet.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lE31NtzI_28

 Mathieu Raymond wrote:
From the text though... they might not even make resin molds... it mentions printing, which would lead me to believe it will be 3D printing.

Im pretty sure it has been confirmed on FB that the model will be resin.

in box of 5 models you will find: 15 heads, 5 backpacks, 10! guns!, and 5 bodies, 5 leg pieces, 5 arms.

I'm not a real life soldier or anything, but wouldn't the stock be on the inside of your arm for balance? Outside just looks awkward.