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 Sigvatr wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:

 RuneGrey wrote:
Overall, the old 7th edition books will probably remain at the top of the heap until they are updated for 8th, at which time they'll all tumble down to mid-tier. GW seems to be paring everything down - while it would be nice to see some of the older, weaker armies brought up, I think that if they are working at removing some of the degenerate combos that will only help some of the weaker, older books as well.

That's what I think too. I just wonder why they start with WoC and not with Lizardmen.

Because they seem to be targeting those with powerful spells in the lores they already possess. Generally I just think they are trying to update every army with unique magic to their own.

With the exception of wood elves, because they don't know what to do with em now.

Wood Elves suffer from not fitting to 8th at all with their MSU / guerilla warfare tactics. Doesn't help that your main cc troops have 0 ranks and thus fight vs. a static combat disadvantage of -3.

Yeah, but that's an issue because they were built for 6th edition in mind, and back then they were actually a good, decent army that could really give a challenge! It's just being so outdated with a more unique army style hurts them, not to mention being an army they probably don't know what fancy new giant monster models they could make for them.

I think what hurts them more is that they have no modelers that can make for them now.

 kenshin620 wrote:
Agreed, just wait and see all the DE and Skaven players complain

Of course though 9th edition is probably next year so wonder if that itself could reign them in

Still waiting for Hydras to get a 50-75 point increase

OHHH NOOOO NOT MY DELICIOUSLY OVERPOWERED 9 PAGE ERRATA CHEESEFEST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Back to chaos I heard they had their magically items greatly reduced in number. IS crimson armor of Dagon gone?

Crimson armor is gone.

I'd say less of a problem for Wood Elf combat skirmishers having zero ranks is the issue of everyone getting to swing back on them. I'm sure Wardancers would happily chop away for as long as it took to get through a block if they didn't have to worry about return attacks.

 captain collius wrote:

 kenshin620 wrote:
Agreed, just wait and see all the DE and Skaven players complain

Of course though 9th edition is probably next year so wonder if that itself could reign them in

Still waiting for Hydras to get a 50-75 point increase

OHHH NOOOO NOT MY DELICIOUSLY OVERPOWERED 9 PAGE ERRATA CHEESEFEST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Back to chaos I heard they had their magically items greatly reduced in number. IS crimson armor of Dagon gone?

Yep there are only about nine I think. Hellfire sword (buffed), sword of change, filth mace, helm of many eyes, skull of katam, chalice of chaos, pennant of Slaanesh, banner of rage and blasted standard are all you have now.

This means my favourite combo of father of blades and armour of damnation is gone. No more chaos lord of why are you hitting yourself?

Pennant of Slaneesh still the worst item in the entire game or has it been buffed?

Buffed. But I don't think you'll see it super often. Mark of Slaanesh only, can only join Slaanesh units, and no other characters can be in the same unit. Break tests on one fewer die than normal, and one extra attack per unsaved wound suffered. I was basically comboing it with a great weapon and soulfeeder to get your wounds back.

The leadership portion is more powerful than I thought at first glance- basically, you will never break unless you lose by more than 3. And if you lose by 4, you're statistically testing on the same as Ld 9. So until you lose by 5 or more, you're looking at as good as or better than the stubborn crown.

Of course, it costs more now...

Pendant just screams for a killy lord with Soul Feeder to take it. Unfortunately you can't really take it and Hellfire Sword at the same time (1 wound per turn hooooo!), nor can you take it with a Daemon Prince (not enough points for magic items) which makes it a bit more corner case - the +1 A per wound is more of a bonus, and the other problem is if you're in a Slaanesh marked unit... the number of things you are testing LD on drops dramatically!

Lolz.

At half its current cost I think the pendant would be a lot better. As it is now I think the main place I'd take it is to support a Lord or Hero riding around with a bunch of Hellstriders as a nasty flanking force.

 Sigvatr wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:

 RuneGrey wrote:
Overall, the old 7th edition books will probably remain at the top of the heap until they are updated for 8th, at which time they'll all tumble down to mid-tier. GW seems to be paring everything down - while it would be nice to see some of the older, weaker armies brought up, I think that if they are working at removing some of the degenerate combos that will only help some of the weaker, older books as well.

That's what I think too. I just wonder why they start with WoC and not with Lizardmen.

Because they seem to be targeting those with powerful spells in the lores they already possess. Generally I just think they are trying to update every army with unique magic to their own.

With the exception of wood elves, because they don't know what to do with em now.

Wood Elves suffer from not fitting to 8th at all with their MSU / guerilla warfare tactics. Doesn't help that your main cc troops have 0 ranks and thus fight vs. a static combat disadvantage of -3.

Actually the problem is that the range is so outdated that the main combat unit, Eternal Guard, is never taken because the figures are metal, unavailable in the shops and sell for £12.30 for 5 figures.

Also the army suffers because two of it's most effective units - Treemen and Treekin - are subject to the flammable rule, which given the ammount of fire around to combat regen is double punishment for their success in 5th and 6th ed.

So I haven't heard too much here about Dragon Ogres or the Shaggoth. My understanding was that they weren't viable in the last few editions (too costly; cannon bait; no marks). Are they viable now?

Fielding them might be the reason I'd pick up WoC.

They went down in points and can take halberds which is nice, but Skullcrushers are still widely considered to be better. While they don't directly compete since one is special and the other is rare... after you fill minimum core + characters, there's not much room left to take both.

 Sigvatr wrote:

 RuneGrey wrote:
Overall, the old 7th edition books will probably remain at the top of the heap until they are updated for 8th, at which time they'll all tumble down to mid-tier. GW seems to be paring everything down - while it would be nice to see some of the older, weaker armies brought up, I think that if they are working at removing some of the degenerate combos that will only help some of the weaker, older books as well.

That's what I think too. I just wonder why they start with WoC and not with Lizardmen.

didn't they start w/ O&G and TK?

but seriously, my guess is that it has something to do w/ "perfecting" the balance or the logistics of making the models. Perhaps a mix. I read a rumor that GW has been playtesting new WE rules for a couple years and have had new Dwarf models for a few years. So who knows why they take X time to accomplish Y. I'm sure a lot more goes into it than the cynical "WoC make more $$ than Lizardmen!"

 grimgrimly wrote:
So I haven't heard too much here about Dragon Ogres or the Shaggoth. My understanding was that they weren't viable in the last few editions (too costly; cannon bait; no marks). Are they viable now?

Fielding them might be the reason I'd pick up WoC.

Shaggoth came down a lot in price but it's hard to compare them to Chimeras. Shaggoths just have really high LD. But if you want an all monster army, I'd take them ahead of giants. Dragon Ogres are basically super-elite Ogres at double the cost. At first blush it's not nearly worth it, but they really are better in every way, faster, stronger, WS, wounds, LD, armor. You don't give them halberds or GW, which are way too expensive. Give them AHW. They are S5, that's plenty. Another attack is golden. Bloodcrushers are an even more elite (and thus costlier) version of Dragon Ogres, but they aren't that far apart.

Those powergamers whom have no clue about anything but copy cheesy tactics are a real suffer for Warhammer gladly there are not that many around here. Sorry, this had to be said after reading six (6) pages of this thread - usually I am not that harsh.

I havent played against nor with the new Chaos book what from theorycrafting/battlereports and discussions with chaos players the new book encourage those who like to use their brain to win games instead of running a no brainer death star.
After all the options for chaos players raised, the model count raised, the overall usefullness of all the units raised. All these ><Unit X is useless now><< "arguments" are not worth much. Take "my" O&G book for example. I cant think of a single unit that is not worth taking but there are lot of units to fill a niche role. Ok, snotlings are more or less just for themed armies but hey, why should all units be around ´ard boyz lists? I love my themed army lists and I love to play themed campaigns. When I started with Warhammer it was more or less all about themed armies around my area.
Nowadays it´s all mixed up and I really appreciate it since we should create space/options for all Warhammer players - powergamers, beginners, themed army players and whatnot. But sometimes people forget that. Not every unit has to be useful for powergaming levels since Warhammer is about having a good time with a couple friends and not about winning Super Bowls.

 Gorbad wrote:

After all the options for chaos players raised

Wrong, less options available now e.g. most magic items gone.

the model count raised

Wrong, cost went up => lower model count.

the overall usefullness of all the units raised

Wrong, most units stayed the same but just went up in price or were nerfed.

I'm just leaving this here...so much for those "discussions" and "theorycrafting" with "chaos players"

Seriously, if you want to lash out at other players (like you did), you should know what you're talking of.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:

Wood Elves suffer from not fitting to 8th at all with their MSU / guerilla warfare tactics. Doesn't help that your main cc troops have 0 ranks and thus fight vs. a static combat disadvantage of -3.

Yeah, but that's an issue because they were built for 6th edition in mind, and back then they were actually a good, decent army that could really give a challenge! It's just being so outdated with a more unique army style hurts them, not to mention being an army they probably don't know what fancy new giant monster models they could make for them.

I think what hurts them more is that they have no modelers that can make for them now.

I'm curious, though it's very offtopic - didn't MSUs also suffer from a -3 static combat res in 6th edition, too? What were the differences in the rules that made WE better then and less-so now?

 Tangent wrote:

I'm curious, though it's very offtopic - didn't MSUs also suffer from a -3 static combat res in 6th edition, too? What were the differences in the rules that made WE better then and less-so now?

Dangerous Terrain was a huge bonus for Wood Elves - it slowed your enemy down allowing you to get more shots in while your elves were unaffected by e.g. woods and could easily play hit&run. Another big thing is the new Skirmish = 0 ranks rule (despite Skrimisher actually being forced to get in ranks in conbat...) and, another big thingy, the fact that the attacker no longer goes first plus the introduction of oh-so-many flame weapons / items.

So, now the forests don't slow anyone down, skirmishers never have any rank bonus when they could possibly have one before, the ability to ensure you get the charge matters less because it doesn't guarantee you're striking first, and trees burn real good. Got it.

Along with the step up rule, which allowed for high I armies to devastate without an attack back.

Though that did help many more races far more then it hindered.

Ive been reading this thread and think the new rules and most of the points changes are for the better. The only downside to me, and im not a competive gamer at all is the huge cost for marauderss.

It is not that i played them to beat the crap outa everything with gw and mark of khorne, but i wanted to make a army of Norse men, lead by a small number of warriors. I go agree that 4pts a models and 1 pt for a GW was too cheap but why such a big increase in both?

My local game store is starting a journeyman campaign. 400pts 1 hero 1 core for the first month, the second month another 400pts and another unit and so on. My idea was to start with an exalted champ with lots of marauders. Fluff wud be that this hero wud go either khorne if he killed lots or nurgle if he died lots, and later wud join the ranks of a unit of warriors. This now seems like a realy bad idea but ive spent the money getting the models and converting them it seems a waste. I just wish they had gone up say to 5pts and the gws to 2pts.

I do think that it was a gud idea to increase the cost of units like this that plp seem to use alot cause of very low points cost, but not to the point where a heavy Marauder force is not worth taking. Makes me sad :( as i like as it make my Marauder horsemen of khorne a nice option.

I just bought the last book and last pack of cards from my FGS. I'm quite happy with the book (in fact I love it), and am only seriously distraught by prices. That said, the most things I need are a Shaggoth, (want more new DO's), two new chariots and maybe a second chimera, if I go that route. I have everything else I need (converted Throgg, trolls, ogres, warriors, chosen, knights, hellcannons x2, etc). The book is solid though. And who the hell claimed that chosen went up in price?! Standard price didn't go up at all. Just the upgrades changed.

The only thing this book is making me want is a couple DPs and MORE CHARIOTS! I love chariots!

I wondered who did. I couldn't figure out why they stuck chariots in nearly every book. Almost no one in history used chariots except for show/sport. Almost no one anywhere on earth could. Unless you live in the country of Pavedsurfacevania.

I don't like the fact that a chariot moves about as fast as a marching unit of normal humans...

DukeRustfield wrote:
I wondered who did. I couldn't figure out why they stuck chariots in nearly every book. Almost no one in history used chariots except for show/sport. Almost no one anywhere on earth could. Unless you live in the country of Pavedsurfacevania.

Chariots are just aesthetically pleasing for me, for some reason.

What do Ya'll think of the Hellstriders? I'm a big fan of the Models, not quite sure on the rules.

I didn't look at them honestly, because boob-tongue-beasts just scare me. That and there were bloodcrushers.

DukeRustfield wrote:
Almost no one in history used chariots except for show/sport.

Egypt, Persia, China, Celts, etc


Yes they had huge flaws but people did use them for warfare.

Though to be fair in a medieval/renaissance world they are out of place

But then again when they have armor of a tank and are pulled by daemons then they can be scary!

And besides if we're talking about reality then the primary weapon of choice for our foot infantry would be spears

I wish i had started playing chaos i now instead of a year ago i would have gone all chariots all speed, chariots drogres and chimeras and nothing else woulda been bad ass

 kenshin620 wrote:

DukeRustfield wrote:
Almost no one in history used chariots except for show/sport.

Egypt, Persia, China, Celts, etc


Yes they had huge flaws but people did use them for warfare.

Though to be fair in a medieval/renaissance world they are out of place

But then again when they have armor of a tank and are pulled by daemons then they can be scary!

And besides if we're talking about reality then the primary weapon of choice for our foot infantry would be spears

Rome, Greek...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chariot#Eastern_Europe

Alotta people used chariots,

Greeks didn't use chariots. Their whole country is hills and rocks. Rome didn't use them in warfare.

It's cool you found wikipedia, but look a little deeper. They're not using them for mass combat outside of areas that are, you know, flat. If it's not dry and flat a chariot is infinitely suck compared to a horse. Because you're basically being dragged on a rigid frame behind pissed off horses over rough terrain. I mean, it's great for comic relief.

The idea that forest-dwelling beastmen have them and chaos/permafrost/viking-dwelling WoC have them is doofy. The world has been fighting using horses for predominantly and successfully for thousands and thousands of years. Not so much for chariots.

And in 40k some units eschew giant laser cannons so they can swing a chainsaw sword.

Some things are just cool.