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I think the codex states that Chronus has 50 marines under his command which is enough marines to crew all the predator tanks, but not the whirlwinds and other rhino based weapons.
If so, why isn't the commander of the tanks and other armour a captain as surely he has a senior enough role to be such?
Could a member of the chapter's armoured force be able to become a captain in one of the 10 line and reserve companies?
The tank crews tend to get ignored in favour of the tanks themselves. I don't believe they are crewed by the reserves because you could have a situation where the reserves are already deployed and there is no one left to crew the tanks which seems strange. I'm definitely a believer that chapters at full strength are closer to 1500 and that the 1000 number refers only to non-HQ footsloggers.
If so though, it seems that a dedicated crew would have few if any chances to advance within the chapter structure except to become senior sergeant or whatever Chronus' rank actually is.
Also, going back to the bit about 50 marines being enough to crew the predators, who crews the whirlwinds and vindicators? Do the pred crews do that or is there another Sgt of the Armoury like Chronus who is in charge of more tank marines?
The Codex states that Chronus' position is unique in that (a) there's only one like him, (b) this is just for the Ultramarines Chapter, and (c) the armoured force he'd command is not attached to any one company but operates independently. I would assume that, in theory, he could still become a Captain in one of the companies, but to do so he'd have to relinquish his position as Spear and be integrated into standard company hierarchy again.
cadbren wrote:The tank crews tend to get ignored in favour of the tanks themselves. I don't believe they are crewed by the reserves because you could have a situation where the reserves are already deployed and there is no one left to crew the tanks which seems strange.
That is what GW's fluff states. Note how the Reserves never deploy by themselves (with the sole exception of an entire Reserve Company manning vehicles and deploying as a single big formation) but only have elements attached to the Battle Companies, which form the core of all Astartes strike forces. White Dwarf #300 went a bit into detail regarding this.
cadbren wrote:I'm definitely a believer that chapters at full strength are closer to 1500 and that the 1000 number refers only to non-HQ footsloggers.
The latter is how Games Workshop has always presented it, too. It's just that, or so I would assume from what I have read so far, the "supernumaries" are way fewer than 500. My own expectations would be more along ~100, maybe.
We recently had a long thread about Space Marines and crewing vehicles, and although there was little consensus achieved, I posted a few quotes from various GW sourves there - feel free to check out both my argument as well as those of the others and then see what works best for your own interpretation.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/02/02 23:30:16
I think most chapter lists 1000 as their fighting-strength, and has more in reserve like the Ultramarines and Imperial Fists storing Space Marines in Deathwatch. Dan Abnett hinted to it (the fact that many more Space Marines are directing logistics than being in actual fighting positions) in his Youtube-video when he discussed how many marines the Ultramarines had, and I'm a fanboi of the Abnettverse.
I must admit I like hypocrisy in wh40k. I think Leman Russ thought Magnus as unclean while he didn't think for the Fenrisian shamanism f.ex. but here the hypocrite has a point. The Fenrisian way with the warp is purer than the unrefined way Magnus sniffed the warp.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/02/02 23:52:59
If you have nothing nice to say then say frakking nothing.
Where does the Codex say that Chronus only commands the Predators? Not in his entry..
The rationale for him being a Sergeant instead of Captain is likely that he only commands half a companies worth of marines, by rights he should probably be a Captain tho since it says he answers to no Captain.
2013/02/03 00:10:11
Subject: Re:Sgt Chronus and other Armoury marines?
I haven't ever been sure why Sergeant Chronus was ever written up as anything other than "Captain of the Ultramarines Reserve Company" (I can't remember the correct number for the life of me- 8?)
I would completely eliminate everything about his fluff that clashes with the established fluff, but still keep him as the correct level of a hero to be warranted as being a special character. I know if I ever wanted to field him in my Ultramarines, I would think of him just like that.
"By this point I'm convinced 100% that every single race in the 40k universe have somehow tapped into the ork ability to just have their tech work because they think it should."
Established fluff for the Reserve Companies providing crews for armoured vehicles had it split equally between both Tactical Reserve Companies however - hence why such vehicles were always listed in the armoury instead of under the companies themselves like Bikes & Speeders.
The armoury having its own crews was established as far back as 3rd edition, adding a guy in charge of it isn't a contradiction of that.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/02/03 01:03:46
SerQuintus wrote:The armoury having its own crews was established as far back as 3rd edition, adding a guy in charge of it isn't a contradiction of that.
That depends on how you interpret the organisational chart (I'm guessing that's what you are referring to?), especially since these hypothetical crews never actually show up in the Armoury section. Even the 3E Codex itself only lists "32 Techmarines, 8 Apprentices, 103 Servitors and 72 "Technomats" - although I suppose the 5E list with its "27 Techmarines and 95 Servitors" may override this.
So Chronus is indeed an oddity - although he supposedly has 50 Marines under his command, neither he nor his crews show up in any of the charts. Are they perhaps assigned to the Armoury only when a mission calls for armoured support? This at least would be one way to reconcile Chronus' fluff with the older material:
"All Space Marines are able to act as crew for the vehicles maintained in each Chapter's armoury. It is normally the Tactical squads which provide vehicle crews. When fighting in this role they replace their normal tactical markings with crew badges, but otherwise they retain their company colours and Chapter insignia as normal." - 2E C:UM
"Unless their mission is very unusual, every Ultramarines battle force will be based around at least one battle company. Sometimes it will be supported by detachments from other companies. Some members of the Veteran 1st company and the Scounts of the 10th company will often be attached to the battle company, as will a number of battle brothers from the 6th and 7th Tactical companies operating the supporting vehicles. [...] The reserve companies are just that, reserves. They will be used to replace losses in the battle companies and crew vehicles." - WD #300
Of course it could be just as possible that the authors wanted to present us with a completely different Chapter organisation in the 5E Codex without actually telling us how it looks like in detail, but for the moment I'm rather looking for possible explanations on how it may all fit together after all. The 5E 'dex did repeat a lot of other ancient fluff from older books, too, after all.
SerQuintus wrote: Where does the Codex say that Chronus only commands the Predators? Not in his entry..
No, It doesn't say that in his entry. I mentioned Predators because the Ultramarines have 25 of them and a Predator has a crew of two according to the 4th Ed codex. 25 x 2 = 50 and Chronus is in charge of 50 marines.
If so, perhaps Chronus is in charge of a core of 50 tankers with the shortfall being picked up by the reserves from the 6th and 7th companies. By shortfall I mean enough crew to have most or all of the armour being active at the same time.
From those listed for the Ultramarines, 25 preds, 8 vinds, 9 whirls and 12 raiders requires 50 + 16 + 18 + 33 = 117 which is a shortfall of 67 marine crew.
Something I hadn't noticed before is that these 12 raiders are not those used by the first company, the first has its own fleet of raiders (mentioned under the land raider entry). Which means that the first company has to find 3 crew each for its raiders as well.
The rationale for him being a Sergeant instead of Captain is likely that he only commands half a companies worth of marines, by rights he should probably be a Captain tho since it says he answers to no Captain.
He should be something like an acting captain. While he "only" commands the equivalent of a half company, those marines are all tank crews so 25 tanks is easily the equal to one of the 10 companies.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Lynata wrote: The Codex states that Chronus' position is unique in that (a) there's only one like him, (b) this is just for the Ultramarines Chapter,
True, though if they as the super duper codex chapter can have an organization like Chronus and his 50, then so can others. It would even suggest that this is a codex formation as it appears within the codex, so while the role is unique within the chapter, it's not unique amongst marine chapters and many chapters have similar dedicated tank crews.
cadbren wrote:The tank crews tend to get ignored in favour of the tanks themselves. I don't believe they are crewed by the reserves because you could have a situation where the reserves are already deployed and there is no one left to crew the tanks which seems strange.
That is what GW's fluff states. Note how the Reserves never deploy by themselves (with the sole exception of an entire Reserve Company manning vehicles and deploying as a single big formation) but only have elements attached to the Battle Companies, which form the core of all Astartes strike forces.
I read what you put on the other thread and I agree that having 50 tanks doesn't mean that they always have to be in use. Which is why my current view on it is that the 50 marines under Chronus are a core that allows a number of tanks to always be available while the reserves make up the rest when and where they can.
cadbren wrote:I'm definitely a believer that chapters at full strength are closer to 1500 and that the 1000 number refers only to non-HQ footsloggers.
The latter is how Games Workshop has always presented it, too. It's just that, or so I would assume from what I have read so far, the "supernumaries" are way fewer than 500. My own expectations would be more along ~100, maybe.
Much more than 100.
Armoury - 51
Honour Guard - 27
Techmarines - 27
That's over 100 already and doesn't include the librarians, chaplains, captains, command squads etc.
I agree that you can't have marines sitting on their hands because no one wants them to drive them to the battle. For the sake of mobility though, I believe there needs to be a pool of drivers who are not attached to anything else. Maybe they could be made up of the crippled and recovering and marines who are on some kind of penance/punishment detail.
Automatically Appended Next Post: 1500 is probably too high, but I would consider 1200 - 1300 to be a good number.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/02/03 04:01:43
cadbren wrote:Much more than 100.
Armoury - 51
Honour Guard - 27
Techmarines - 27
That's over 100 already and doesn't include the librarians, chaplains, captains, command squads etc.
Ah, but the "Armoury 51" don't show up anywhere in the organisational charts, neither in the 3E nor the current 5E Codex. Are you assuming this is Chronus and his 50 men? Because it would be just as possible that the 50 are drawn from the Reserves as and when needed, and Chronus is quite simply the one who gets to command them "by default" due to his role as Spear. Otherwise it would be in contradiction of WD #300.
Taking a look at the most current Chart in the 5E Codex, ...
Chapter Command: 29
Armoury: 28
Apothecarion: 13
Librarius: 28 (incl. Acolytes)
Companies 1-10: 10
= 108
The grand total likely is a little bigger still, as for some reason the chart is omitting the Standard Bearers. I'm also not entirely sure how the Command Squads are resolved, for even though some specialists (such as the Apothecary) would be drawn from the HQ staff, it also includes a honour guard. Or are those taken from the 27 honor guards in the Chapter Command? Anyways, I suppose the total number would then be somewhere between 100 and 200, closer to the 100.
cadbren wrote:I agree that you can't have marines sitting on their hands because no one wants them to drive them to the battle. For the sake of mobility though, I believe there needs to be a pool of drivers who are not attached to anything else. Maybe they could be made up of the crippled and recovering and marines who are on some kind of penance/punishment detail.
That reminds me of Kid Kyoto's idea in the other thread.
I still don't think this is necessary, tho - given that all Space Marines are trained as drivers, a Chapter can never be short of them, as the moment they do not have enough drivers is the moment they no longer have any Marines. It's a matter of juggling resources and analysing the combat situation, e.g. whether you need more vehicles or would rather have more infantry, and then assigning your men where you think they will be most effective. With the Reserve acting as drivers, this at least gives them "something to do" - for I have to admit, having four entire companies of guys whose only job is to support the Battle Companies .. until researching the issue for the Rhino thread, I used to think their Marines would spend a lot of time just sitting around doing nothing.
On a sidenote, I suppose a preference for assigning drivers would be to take them from squads who are not at full strength. Coincidentally, this would fit perfectly to the role of the Reserve as a resource of manpower for the squads of the Battle Companies, too - in essence, you'll have part of a squad promoted to a Battle Company to replace combat casualties, and the rest will become a preferred pool of drivers - at least until the squad is filled up again with newly promoted Astartes. All in all, the organisation would be in a constant flux, giving the overly simplistic hierarchy of a Marine Chapter an interesting touch of being an economic challenge for whoever is responsible to ensure the most efficient assignments of their men.
Lynata wrote: Ah, but the "Armoury 51" don't show up anywhere in the organisational charts, neither in the 3E nor the current 5E Codex.
The 3e Smurf write-up has a footnote stating that all vehicles besides Bikes & Speeders have crews, the Armouy has vehicles ergo it has crews. Just because they aren't itemised doesn't mean they aren't there anymore than the lack of itemised transport vehicles in the 5e codex doesn't mean they aren't there.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/02/03 11:48:16
SerQuintus wrote:The 3e Smurf write-up has a footnote stating that all vehicles besides Bikes & Speeders have crews, the Armouy has vehicles ergo it has crews. Just because they aren't itemised doesn't mean they aren't there anymore than the lack of itemised transport vehicles in the 5e codex doesn't mean they aren't there.
That's the "matter of interpretation" I meant earlier - for the assumption that all vehicles have permanently assigned crews is obviously contradicted by several other codices (both before and after 3E) as well as several White Dwarf articles (including the Index Astartes column) on Chapter organisation. This one line in the (let's face it) generally fluff-poor 3E 'dex stands very alone in implying dedicated crews, so personally, I will go with the fluff that is (a) newer and (b) more numerous.
Perhaps this line in the 3E chart was written by a contributor less familiar with GW's earlier Astartes fluff, or perhaps the line was written poorly and meant to say something differently, such as "separate crew not shown here because their potential drivers are already listed in the infantry".
In the end, of course I cannot tell you how to resolve it for yourself - but you'll have to agree that there is an obvious conflict between the 3E chart and the other books.
But do you really believe a Space Marine Chapter to have about 550-650 drivers and pilots in addition to their 1.000 infantry? Seems like a waste to have that many people sit around doing nothing whenever vehicular support isn't needed. How often do the Vindicators even see action?
32 Thunderhawks = 128
32 Predator = 64 (not counting potential sponson gunners)
8 Vindicator = 16
9 Whirlwind = 18
125 Rhinos = 125-250 (depending on whether pintle-mounted bolter equipped or not)
14 Razorback = 28
19 Land Raider = 38
60 Land Speeders = 120
Lynata wrote: That's the "matter of interpretation" I meant earlier - for the assumption that all vehicles have permanently assigned crews is obviously contradicted by several other codices (both before and after 3E) as well as several White Dwarf articles (including the Index Astartes column) on Chapter organisation.
No.
GW never told us who acts as driver for a specific vehicle. They just made general statements. And even with these, nothing spells it out exactly.
So a contradiction isnt only not there its also impossible.
Perhaps this line in the 3E chart was written by a contributor less familiar with GW's earlier Astartes fluff, or perhaps the line was written poorly and meant to say something differently, such as "separate crew not shown here because their potential drivers are already listed in the infantry".
Nonsense.
3rd ed was pretty clean and compatible. Instead of the issues of 5th for example, where Blood Angels get lots of Land Raiders, fluff to imply these are transported with T-Hawks and then.....only 3 of the transport variant of the T-Hawk at all.
Yay. GW at its best. So why again should numbers from GW fluff make sense?
But do you really believe a Space Marine Chapter to have about 550-650 drivers and pilots in addition to their 1.000 infantry? Seems like a waste to have that many people sit around doing nothing whenever vehicular support isn't needed. How often do the Vindicators even see action?
Wasn't the claim of certain very vocal posters at dakka the marines are a mobile force, fighting on their terms and thus using any means of mobility ( vehicles maybe? ) Following this logic, they rather run out of fuel than have drivers and pilots with free time.
Secondly, the ancient daily routine fluff gave them 24 hour plans, so sitting around wouldn't happen, no matter if they move or not.
32 Thunderhawks = 128
32 Predator = 64 (not counting potential sponson gunners) STC, zero sponson gunners.
8 Vindicator = 16
9 Whirlwind = 18
125 Rhinos = 125-250 (depending on whether pintle-mounted bolter equipped or not) pintle mounted = passenger maybe? You know the old 1 rhino = 1 crew fluff
14 Razorback = 28
19 Land Raider = 38
60 Land Speeders = 120 The speeders are crewed by marines of the companies those speeders belong to.
Why do I feel you have enlarged those numbers a bit? Like counting the stored vehicles ( 125 rhinos ??? ).
I mean, you don't count the marines by backpack + jumppack or veterans by TDA + PA.
We could add the fleet... a chance to assume.. a lot.
I think I am going to wait until you started to realize the difference between used and owned.
Target locked,ready to fire
In dedicatio imperatum ultra articulo mortis.
H.B.M.C :
We were wrong. It's not the 40k End Times. It's the Trademarkening.
Crimson wrote:Crewing tanks is nothing. How about those huge fleets of ludicrously oversized spaceships?
From what I've read in BFG, the crew of the starships is Chapter Serfs, but the Space Marines can assume command over a vessel whenever they want (meaning, whenever they choose to travel aboard one). The position of "Master of the Fleet" seems to be held by the Captain of the 4th Company, at least as per the 5E 'dex Chapter Organisation chart.
Well in line with their habit of uniting several jobs within an individual Marine, I reckon.
1hadhq wrote:GW never told us who acts as driver for a specific vehicle. They just made general statements. And even with these, nothing spells it out exactly.
So a contradiction isnt only not there its also impossible.
You are admitting to the contradiction yourself when you state that "GW never told us who acts as driver for a specific vehicle" when that line in 3E supposedly means they have dedicated drivers.
Either that, or you actually agree with me and just don't know it yet.
1hadhq wrote: Don't. 3rd ed is so far beyond some later editions at details it isn't funny .
Compared to 4th edition maybe? But 5th? Hell no. Honestly, the 3E Marine and Guard books are so ridiculously thin that there is next to no fluff in there.
Ask around, I'm fairly sure the majority of dakka would agree.
1hadhq wrote:Sure. Provide this new and numerous fluff.
Again?! Okay, just for you.
"The Assault squads of the Battle Company may be deployed as Bike squadrons or Land Speeder crews. [...] Similarly the 7th Company squads are trained to fight from Land Speeders enabling the Company to fight as a light vehicle reserve formation." - WD #251 + 5E Marine Codex
"Unless their mission is very unusual, every Ultramarines battle force will be based around at least one battle company. Sometimes it will be supported by detachments from other companies. Some members of the Veteran 1st company and the Scounts of the 10th company will often be attached to the battle company, as will a number of battle brothers from the 6th and 7th Tactical companies operating the support vehicles. [...] The reserve companies are just that, reserves. They will be used to replace losses in the battle companies and crew vehicles." - WD #300.
All of the above would be in contradiction to the claim that the various vehicles have their own dedicated crews - unless you assume that this is supposed to mean that the vehicles have their own drivers as well as a pool of additional drivers in the company organisation. This, however, would be in contradiction to 2E Codex fluff (in addition to being somewhat ridiculous), and since I don't see why older fluff should be thrown away as long as there are fairly obvious ways on how it would still be in effect, I don't know why you would make such an assumption.
1hadhq wrote:Nonsense. 3rd ed was pretty clean and compatible. Instead of the issues of 5th for example, where Blood Angels get lots of Land Raiders, fluff to imply these are transported with T-Hawks and then.....only 3 of the transport variant of the T-Hawk at all.
Yay. GW at its best. So why again should numbers from GW fluff make sense?
Nonsense. Personally, I am used to GW numbers making sense. Not sure what you've read, but it does not seem to be in line with my own observations throughout more than 20 years of fluff.
For your example on the Blood Angels, did you consider that Land Raiders may still not be deployed in excessive numbers that would warrant more dropships? That the Thunderhawks could make multiple drops to bring down more vehicles? That, whilst the Thunderhawk could be the default solution for a landing, there are other options? Or, probably the one easiest to swallow, that the Blood Angels have lost a couple Land Raiders over their most recent engagements? After all, these charts usually tend to represent the forces of a Chapter at a specific point in time, not some sort of ideal condition.
1hadhq wrote:Wasn't the claim of certain very vocal posters at dakka the marines are a mobile force, fighting on their terms and thus using any means of mobility ( vehicles maybe? ) Following this logic, they rather run out of fuel than have drivers and pilots with free time.
I don't see the contradiction you imply. I thought it was obvious that the Space Marines' mobility is focused on rapid deployment via their ships and drop pods, not because they tend to run huge armoured colums and roll over the roads from one continent to another. The latter is how the Imperial Guard does it.
Also, from memory, certain other posters were very vocal as well.
1hadhq wrote:Secondly, the ancient daily routine fluff gave them 24 hour plans, so sitting around wouldn't happen, no matter if they move or not.
That doesn't actually mean anything for the discussion at hand. A Space Marine who only gets to see deployment once every decade is a total waste of resources.
1hadhq wrote:Why do I feel you have enlarged those numbers a bit? Like counting the stored vehicles ( 125 rhinos ??? ).
I mean, you don't count the marines by backpack + jumppack or veterans by TDA + PA.
I am counting all vehicles because that one line on the 3E chart implied that all vehicles would have their own crews.
Pedantism can only be countered by pedantism. Since you agree with me that this is ridiculous, I feel vindicated in my interpretation of the line as being inaccurately worded or quite simply not in line with the rest of Astartes fluff.
1hadhq wrote:I think I am going to wait until you started to realize the difference between used and owned.
Tell that to whoever wrote the chart in the 3E Codex which I maintain does not make a lot of sense in this regard.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/02/03 21:55:39
The broken marines being used was inspired by Kid Kyoto's post in the other thread, it makes sense to me. I differ in including disgraced marines into the mix rather than his 'failed aspirants'/'reject bin' version.
As the first company appears to have dedicated land raiders to transport the terminators, then I can't see reserves being used to crew these as these would be permanent positions. If the reserves were busy elsewhere then the terminators get no wheels which is crazy. They must be dedicated crew and that number appears to be three per tank (still no idea where the driver is supposed to sit!).
Digressing here because I just thought of something. Marneus Calgar has his own land raider. Who crews that? Surely not the elite honour guard who would be best used on the field of battle?
Going back to Chronus, the entry states that he leads 50 marines. Not that he is in charge of whatever number of reserves are assigned to him. It seems to me that this number is constant, suggesting a permanent group.
Just because the reserve squads can be used to crew tanks doesn't mean that they are the only ones able to or available to.
The First Company had Land Raiders in the 3E chart. Depending on how you personally handle potential conflicts in fluff from different sources, this may no longer the case in the 5E Codex, where these vehicles appear in the Armoury section. Unless we assume that the 5E chart is not complete, seeing that it also misses Razorbacks and Land Speeders (in this case it's still weird that the Land Raiders show up once, though).
But regardless of this question - from what I have read, there is no possible way a Chapter could ever not have any drivers left due to the simple fact that each and every Space Marine can assume this position when needed. So should the Reserves truly not be able to meet the demands (how?), they can always be pulled from one of the Battle Companies or out of the First Company itself. It's all a question of assigning resources, and having the Space Marines be able to function as infantry as well as crews is quite simply more efficient than having two dedicated pools of each with no crossover, for not every engagement involves vehicles - let alone so many - meaning that the crews would be under-used.
Regarding Chronus, the entry states that he leads "some 50" Marines indeed - it does not state that they are part of the Armoury, and as (unlike the Techmarines) they do not show up in the chart, I'm going to assume that the established fluff about crews being pulled from the companies for temporary assignment remains in place. The "some 50 Marines" (note on how the Codex refrains from giving us an exact number) could thus simply refer to the average amount of drivers pulled from the Reserves whenever an "armoured assault" formation is formed.
Of course it comes down to interpretations, especially since we have this line in the 3E 'dex, but I remain adamant that my position throws up the least contradictions to GW's fluff on the subject.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/02/04 04:01:21
We differ on the interpretation of the 50 marines so I'll leave it at that.
As for the land raiders. The Ultras have 12 of them in the armoury. The codex also states that the first company has its own compliment of raiders to transport terminator squads. If these were the same as the ones in the armoury then why bother listing raiders in the armoury at all if they're always with the first?
The Dark Angels codex (at least the previous one) has the same split in the chapter's raiders between the deathwing and armoury.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The bit about first company raiders is on the chapter organisation page, just before the page that lists the chapter's assets.
Automatically Appended Next Post: You misunderstand me when I say that the chapter wont have enough drivers.
Of course every marine can drive well. My point is that for every driver (of rhinos at least) there is a marine not engaging the enemy.
To me the 1000 marine remark means that a chapter has the ability to field 1000 marines who can shoot at you and/or chop you into pieces. Non-combat support services like driving need to be filled by extras not part of the 1000.
Sure a squad could be given a rhino and one of them drives it. Then they stop, get out, and hope no one steals the tracks while they are away. Either that or they have to leave 10% of the squad (one marine) behind.
So a reserve marine gets used. Which is kind of wasteful for a reserve marine who are better crewing predators and speeders and so on.
They have limited resources but if they are too penny pinching with their marines they become too restricted in what they can do.
Now that more flyers are appearing the situation is becoming worse and there are now more redundant vehicles sitting idle as the marine armoury grows while the marines to crew them become scarcer.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/02/04 07:59:19
Sure a squad could be given a rhino and one of them drives it. Then they stop, get out, and hope no one steals the tracks while they are away. Either that or they have to leave 10% of the squad (one marine) behind.
I just had an image of a marine fumbling for a key fob. He points it at the rhino, and presses the rune of security. The rhino's lights flash twice, and the battle klaxon sounds a short burst to acknowledge its state of vigilance as the hatches slam securely shut. The marine then hefts his bolter and jogs off to catch up with his squad as the battle rages around them.
cadbren wrote:Of course every marine can drive well. My point is that for every driver (of rhinos at least) there is a marine not engaging the enemy.
That's exactly my point as well! Just that I'm coming from the angle where I consider that a dedicated driver is a Marine never available to engage the enemy on foot (and thus in many cases not seeing a lot of action), whereas having them all be able to jump into this role on an as-needed basis (with a certain order of from where they are pulled) means that whoever is in command of the mission can juggle around available resources to the most efficient manner.
Of course you can go and say that "limited resources" means they should have drivers extra, but at what point do they stop being limited? They could always use one or two squads more here or there. Considering how they operate and how they seem to "build" their strike forces with a unique setup for every single mission rather than resorting to some standard composition, it makes little difference whether you add a squad of drivers or reassign a squad of infantry already part of the company organisation. In fact, that the Marines' resources are limited is exactly why I've come to believe that the few people they have are assigned to whatever role is required any given moment (within limits of proficiency), as this ensures the least amount of "downtime" and the most efficient usage of every single Space Marine in the Chapter.
I've been somewhat undecided/insecure on my interpretation in the past, but ever since reading those lines in WD#300 and the 2E Ultramarines Codex about how every single Space Marine gets trained as a driver and how the Reserve is used to crew vehicles, there is no other possibility to me - at least until I get to see some more quotes from more current studio sources contradicting said material.
How many dedicated drivers do you think a Chapter would have, anyways? If we were to assume your 50 Armoury Marines and your apparent stance that all 1.000 Space Marines need to be able to deploy as infantry simultaneously (if I understood you correctly?), this would barely provide Rhino transportation for half a Chapter's Battle-brothers, to say nothing of any tanks/artillery and Thunderhawks.
cadbren wrote:Which is kind of wasteful for a reserve marine who are better crewing predators and speeders and so on.
I wouldn't say this would be a wasteful allocation of resources - I simply do not believe that a Battle Company deploys all its Marines as infantry for every single mission, or that the Reserve is tapped to an extent that would regularly deplete them (considering how there's 4 entire companies of them, of whom elements are attached to the Battle Companies for support). What would be wasteful is when you have so many Marines in specialist roles that they remain unused because the mission doesn't call for them.
But I'll admit, on the Rhino issue I am kind of split anyways. I could see them being manned by the Reserve, just as I could see them being crewed by Marines from the Battle Company they belong to - and here split further into the possibility of the driver coming from the squad he transports, or from another squad which is currently on standby. I've seen no indication pointing towards a specific option, and I could think of arguments and counter-arguments to each...
Maybe we'll get to read a more obvious explanation in the 6E Vanilla Marine 'dex. At least we can always hope.
As for the Land Raiders, I did read the page you're referring to - but I may have interpreted it falsely. If I remember correctly (will have to check again), the 3E chart had the Land Raiders directly as a company attachment rather than being in the armoury, and so I assumed that for the 5E chart they were simply "moved over". Reconsidering the issue, I should probably forget the 3E chart altogether and only consider the 5E one as an individual entity rather than an update, at which point it becomes more likely that it's unfortunately not very complete. Like I said, the Razorbacks and Land Speeders don't show up anywhere, either.
cadbren wrote:Then they stop, get out, and hope no one steals the tracks while they are away.
Well, the vehicle could be equipped with the same gene-lock that their bolters are (at least as per that cross-section in the 3E rulebook). Or it's just something that is possible but does not happen very often, considering that I can't really imagine who would be so bold (or stupid) to stick around in a battle trying to steal an APC rather than (if soldier) attacking the enemy or (if civilian) running away.
Makes me wonder, though, how do the militaries do it with their own vehicles? There are situations where everybody gets out - at least with smaller ones like armoured cars. In the German Air Force we never bothered to lock them - but then again, my unit wasn't deployed in an actual warzone, so I'd be interested to hear something from the vets.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/02/04 16:57:09
cadbren wrote:Of course every marine can drive well. My point is that for every driver (of rhinos at least) there is a marine not engaging the enemy.
That's exactly my point as well! Just that I'm coming from the angle where I consider that a dedicated driver is a Marine never available to engage the enemy on foot (and thus in many cases not seeing a lot of action), whereas having them all be able to jump into this role on an as-needed basis (with a certain order of from where they are pulled) means that whoever is in command of the mission can juggle around available resources to the most efficient manner..
The problem is, this is looking at the problem backwards. Having no dedicated drivers hampers the Chapter's ability to prosecute the ground campaign to its maximum effectiveness and seriously dilutes total combat effectiveness and power projection. Having dedicated drivers that are not utilized because of the Codex Astartes' rules on limitations on Space Marine ground combatants simply means that resources are unnecessarily underutilized.
I'll let you decide which is the worse problem, however, there is a correct answer, and there is nothing about the first option that any military commander would ever call "most efficient", when he is forced to mathematically eliminate his combat capabilities based on an insufficient amount of manpower.
2E Ultramarines Codex about how every single Space Marine gets trained as a driver
What's the relevance? Nobody has ever suggested assignment to the armory or a vehicle crew is permanent. If anything, it simply highlights the adaptability of the individual Marine, in that he spends his career fulfilling every role, so that in a pinch he can perform any job needed. It's not some kind of empirical evidence that suggests that every situation is a pinch, lol.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/02/04 17:41:19
Marneus Calgar is referred to as "one of the Imperium's greatest tacticians" and he treats the Codex like it's the War Bible. If the Codex is garbage, then how bad is everyone else?
Veteran Sergeant wrote:The problem is, this is looking at the problem backwards. Having no dedicated drivers hampers the Chapter's ability to prosecute the ground campaign to its maximum effectiveness and seriously dilutes total combat effectiveness and power projection. Having dedicated drivers that are not utilized because of the Codex Astartes' rules on limitations on Space Marine ground combatants simply means that resources are unnecessarily underutilized.
I'll let you decide which is the worse problem, however, there is a correct answer, and there is nothing about the first option that any military commander would ever call "most efficient", when he is forced to mathematically eliminate his combat capabilities based on an insufficient amount of manpower.
But you fail to present a reason for why 1.000 is sufficient, yet ~800 is supposedly not.
Having unnecessarily underutilised resources in the driver pool sounds a bit wrong when you don't have enough infantry to do the job you'd need all those drivers for - at least compared to the alternative of just using the available manpower in the position that seems most valuable at the moment.
A Chapter's resources are always limited. They can have only so many Space Marines, regardless of whether you set this number at 1.000, 1.500 or 3.000. Adding drivers on top only exarcerbates the issue by having tons of drivers with perfect Space Marine physiology left in the pool, but not enough footsloggers to actually plan a mission where you could use vehicles. The alternative at least ensures that these limited resources are used in the most efficient way rather than being squandered by sitting around doing nothing (other than training and praying all day long, before someone splits that hair again).
And remember, a Chapter has four entire companies of dudes whose only job is to support the Battle Companies. They won't get deployed for a mission all by themselves anyways but only as an add-on already.
Veteran Sergeant wrote:What's the relevance? Nobody has ever suggested assignment to the armory or a vehicle crew is permanent.
Actually, yes. That's one of the points I'm currently argueing against here.
Or did you mean this in comparison to how their Devastators etc are trained, essentially as a step or phase in their career?
(it'd still go against the Codex fluff regarding the role of the Reserve, mind you)
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/02/04 18:43:11
The fully staffed armory vehicles and transports require well over 400 Marines, lol. And that's by the limited list in 3rd Ed which doesn't include the 4th, 5th, and 6th edition released vehicles not included on that list, lol.
We're talking about, if a Chapter chooses to utilize all of its vehicle assets, it is reduced to anywhere from 50-55% of its authorized infantry strength.
It's already obvious that 1,000 Marines is a silly number, but it's 40K. Space Marines do amazing things it seems. Since that's the arbitrary number assigned by GW, it's not about what "should" or "would", only an analysis of how drastically one operating model is affected versus the other.
You're going to have to explain how having dedicated drivers "exacerbates" any battlefield issues other than perhaps berthing facilities on smaller vessels of the fleet, lol. This argument defies all logic, and any military theory or application.
"I have too many guys." Said no military commander ever.
Marneus Calgar is referred to as "one of the Imperium's greatest tacticians" and he treats the Codex like it's the War Bible. If the Codex is garbage, then how bad is everyone else?
I think this boils down to the 1,000 marine issue.
If you believe that each chapter has a hard limit of 1,000 marines, then the only real option is to have the reserve companies drive the tanks.
If you believe that the 1,000 marines is the number of line troops, not including all the extra staff, support, command, etc, then a chapter would be crazy to have any of their 1,000 main troops tied up when they could use extranumanaries for the job.
Given the rate of attrition, and the time it takes to train up new marines, the answer is probably somewhere in between. The full chapter list in the 3rd ed codex shows that even the battle companies are not at full strength. If the primary fighting units of the chapter are understrength, I think it's safe to assume that the armory is also undermanned. The extra divers and gunners needed to keep the chapter's vehicles up and running would then be drawn from the reserve companies.
Of course you can go and say that "limited resources" means they should have drivers extra, but at what point do they stop being limited?
I know what you mean, you have your "core" group of fighters, then you have your support group, then you need your drivers, then back ups for everyone mentioned and it starts to look more like a bloated guard regiment.
How many dedicated drivers do you think a Chapter would have, anyways? If we were to assume your 50 Armoury Marines and your apparent stance that all 1.000 Space Marines need to be able to deploy as infantry simultaneously (if I understood you correctly?), this would barely provide Rhino transportation for half a Chapter's Battle-brothers, to say nothing of any tanks/artillery and Thunderhawks.
That's my current sticking point. At what point do the reserves become permanent supporting forces rather than a reserve held back for use when things really get bad?
I would regard crewing tanks, bikes and speeders as a function of the reserve companies, but if they're constantly having to be drivers then it seems to me that they can't be reserves anymore as they're already being used.
I'm going with the 50 armoury marines as a core group that crews some of the armour as a certain amount of armour is always in use. This means that the reserves can actually be reserves and bulk up the armour crews when needed or do any of the other roles they're required to do.
Maybe I'm hung up on the name reserves when they'd possibly be more accurately described as supporting services.
I'm undecided on it myself.
At least with Land Raiders it can be explained that the Machine Spirit is capable of driving and fighting if the entire squad gets out to fight and there is no other crew.
I simply do not believe that a Battle Company deploys all its Marines as infantry for every single mission, or that the Reserve is tapped to an extent that would regularly deplete them (considering how there's 4 entire companies of them, of whom elements are attached to the Battle Companies for support). What would be wasteful is when you have so many Marines in specialist roles that they remain unused because the mission doesn't call for them.
By 1000 shooting marines, I do include those using bikes and speeders and the codex does say that the reserves of the 6th and 7th companies are used to crew tanks.
The question about redundancy of marines would depend on how often marines deploy with such vehicles. If they arrive by drop pod then no extra marines are required to transport them.
possibility of the driver coming from the squad he transports, or from another squad which is currently on standby. I've seen no indication pointing towards a specific option, and I could think of arguments and counter-arguments to each...
I was originally opposed to the squads driving themselves as I was thinking dogmatically that squads had to have 10 to be optimum. I still think there is merit in a dedicated pool of drivers, but how that pool is composed I'm undecided, though marines rotating through it would make sense so that everyone has to do the less glamorous stuff.
Maybe we'll get to read a more obvious explanation in the 6E Vanilla Marine 'dex. At least we can always hope.
Exactly, it can't be that far away, mid-year? I haven't look at the predictions.
Makes me wonder, though, how do the militaries do it with their own vehicles? There are situations where everybody gets out - at least with smaller ones like armoured cars. In the German Air Force we never bothered to lock them - but then again, my unit wasn't deployed in an actual warzone, so I'd be interested to hear something from the vets.
That would be interesting. I suspect they'd have to be unlocked so that they can board them in a hurry if needed. I also suspect that someone would have to remain behind in case the vehicle had to come to them.
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Nevelon wrote: I think this boils down to the 1,000 marine issue.
If you believe that each chapter has a hard limit of 1,000 marines,
It's definitely over 1000 marines. Ultramarines as example:
Calgar, Cassius, 27 Honour Guard
Mstr of Forge, 27 Techmarines, Chronus
Chief Apoth, 12 apothecaries
Chief Librarian, 27 librarians
1st Co. Cpt, 97 vets
2nd - 9th Co's. 8 Cpts, 800 marines
10th Co. Cpt, Telion, various other scout sergeants - at least 9 others.
The above adds up to 1005.
Most companies have at least a three man command squad so say 8 x 3 - 24 vets
So a minimum of another 24.
Then there are the chaplains which though not listed in the codex would be enough for at least every company so another 10.
Then we have the albeit disputed existence of the separate group of 50 marines that Chronus is in charge of so a potential further 50.
Suddenly we're already 90 marines over and we haven't got to the really debatable stuff yet.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/02/04 21:05:32
How many dedicated drivers do you think a Chapter would have, anyways? If we were to assume your 50 Armoury Marines and your apparent stance that all 1.000 Space Marines need to be able to deploy as infantry simultaneously (if I understood you correctly?), this would barely provide Rhino transportation for half a Chapter's Battle-brothers, to say nothing of any tanks/artillery and Thunderhawks.
But it is possible that those 50 are dedicated tank crew and reserves are only called when more is needed. This would still not allow entire chapter to deploy simultaneously, but would lessen the strain to the reserves and provide reasonable pool of personnel for smaller campaigns.
But I'll admit, on the Rhino issue I am kind of split anyways. I could see them being manned by the Reserve, just as I could see them being crewed by Marines from the Battle Company they belong to - and here split further into the possibility of the driver coming from the squad he transports, or from another squad which is currently on standby. I've seen no indication pointing towards a specific option, and I could think of arguments and counter-arguments to each...
The driver certainly cannot be from the squad being transported. This would mean that fluff accurate tac squad on the field would be nine man strong... That just never happens.
You are admitting to the contradiction yourself when you state that "GW never told us who acts as driver for a specific vehicle" when that line in 3E supposedly means they have dedicated drivers.
Either that, or you actually agree with me and just don't know it yet.
Compared to 4th edition maybe? But 5th? Hell no. Honestly, the 3E Marine and Guard books are so ridiculously thin that there is next to no fluff in there. Ask around, I'm fairly sure the majority of dakka would agree.
All of the above would be in contradiction to the claim that the various vehicles have their own dedicated crews - unless you assume that this is supposed to mean that the vehicles have their own drivers as well as a pool of additional drivers in the company organisation. This, however, would be in contradiction to 2E Codex fluff (in addition to being somewhat ridiculous), and since I don't see why older fluff should be thrown away as long as there are fairly obvious ways on how it would still be in effect, I don't know why you would make such an assumption.
Nonsense. Personally, I am used to GW numbers making sense. Not sure what you've read, but it does not seem to be in line with my own observations throughout more than 20 years of fluff.
For your example on the Blood Angels, did you consider that Land Raiders may still not be deployed in excessive numbers that would warrant more dropships? That the Thunderhawks could make multiple drops to bring down more vehicles? That, whilst the Thunderhawk could be the default solution for a landing, there are other options? Or, probably the one easiest to swallow, that the Blood Angels have lost a couple Land Raiders over their most recent engagements? After all, these charts usually tend to represent the forces of a Chapter at a specific point in time, not some sort of ideal condition.
I don't see the contradiction you imply. I thought it was obvious that the Space Marines' mobility is focused on rapid deployment via their ships and drop pods, not because they tend to run huge armoured colums and roll over the roads from one continent to another. The latter is how the Imperial Guard does it.
Maybe switch "silly mode" off, please ?
Its only entertaining so far.
I am counting all vehicles because that one line on the 3E chart implied that all vehicles would have their own crews.
Pedantism can only be countered by pedantism. Since you agree with me that this is ridiculous, I feel vindicated in my interpretation of the line as being inaccurately worded or quite simply not in line with the rest of Astartes fluff.
Vindicated... turned into a conrad curze fan?
Sorry couldn't resist..
3rd ed has zero issues if taken on its own.
- There is a pic at the first pages of the whole assembled Ultramarines ( more than 1k marines if you count them ) in front of their transports. Easy to spot what is standing there.
( The old razorback had a turret gunner. So even if you had it ferry 6 marines , 1 and possibly another 1 as driver would stay with the razorback. )
- the snapshot of the Ultramarines, organizational chart. Date = 6500745.M41
1st Co : 101 marines, 3 dreads , 18 rhinos, 7 LR ( 74 TDA ). 101 vs a transport capacity of 180 + 70 / (35).
2nd Co: 103 marines, 2 dreads, 11 rhinos. ( 6 land speeder, 18 bike , 2 AB ). 103 marines vs a transport cpacity of 110 + (34).
3rd Co: 100 marines, 2 dreads, 9 rhinos. ( 7 land speeder, 20 bike, 4 AB ). 100 marines vs a transport capacity of 90 + (42).
4th co: 109 marines, 4 dreads, 15 rhinos. ( 15 land speeder, 25 bikes, 5 AB ) . 109 marines vs a transport capacity of 150 + ( 65 ).
5th Co: 80 marines , 2 dreads , 7 rhinos. ( 5 land speeder, 12 bikes, 1 AB ) . 80 marines vs a transport capacity of 70 + ( 24 ).
6th co: 97 marines, 4 dreads, 13 rhinos. ( 21 bike, 3 AB ). 97 marines vs a transport capacity of 130 + ( 27 ).
7th Co: 101 marines, 3 dreads, 15 rhinos. ( 11 land speeder ) . 101 marines vs a transport capacity of 150 + ( 22 ).
8th Co: 101 marines, 5 dreads, 16 rhinos. ( 17 land speeder, 28 bike, 7 AB ). 101 marines vs a transport capacity of 160 + ( 76 )
9th Co: 92 marines, 7 dreads, 8 rhinos. ( nothing else ). 92 marines vs a transport capacity of 80 + ( 0 ).
10th Co: 92 scouts and marines.
HQ : 74 marines, 3 rhinos, 2 LR, 5 razorbacks. 74 marines vs a transport capacity of 80. ( 206 human servants )
HQ also includes fleet assets and all of the Tanks. 42 Tanks and 28 transports , 12 LR. Another group of transport capacity of 224 + 120 / (60)
>> 971 marines without scouts. Because only 4th seems at full strength, the overall size would be 1068. ( without scouts, non astartes and the fleet )
A lot of more recent units are missing since this is 3rd ed. Still crossed the line of 1k easily.
The examples you like to ignore soo much, Joran VI, Delpha and Gerio provide a nice rundown of space marine forces.
One a patrol. A patrol with just reserve company members...the reserve you said would't be fielded on its own. Funny.
So this is the problem ? the "contradiction" ? That vehicles got crews, in 3rd ed when crews were listed in vehicle entrys ?
You are aware there is only 1 type of Land Raider present, the razorback pretty rare and no fliers. Like its 1998... BTW, a squad of 10 wasn't neccessary then, no weapon limit. Plus this codex was sold for 25 DM ( ~ 12,5 € )
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Nevelon wrote: I think this boils down to the 1,000 marine issue.
If you believe that each chapter has a hard limit of 1,000 marines, then the only real option is to have the reserve companies drive the tanks.
If you believe that the 1,000 marines is the number of line troops, not including all the extra staff, support, command, etc, then a chapter would be crazy to have any of their 1,000 main troops tied up when they could use extranumanaries for the job.
Given the rate of attrition, and the time it takes to train up new marines, the answer is probably somewhere in between. The full chapter list in the 3rd ed codex shows that even the battle companies are not at full strength. If the primary fighting units of the chapter are understrength, I think it's safe to assume that the armory is also undermanned. The extra divers and gunners needed to keep the chapter's vehicles up and running would then be drawn from the reserve companies.
Yeah, but you ultimately have to discuss theoretical tables of organization and equipment (TOEs), and not operating strengths. Because a chapter will fluctuate in terms of its actual Marines depending on replacement rates and operational tempos. Plus, the number of Marines can rise or fall at any given time.
You eliminate such variables by simply acknowledging their existence, but discussing what the ideal, or target, strength is in terms of numbers.
Marneus Calgar is referred to as "one of the Imperium's greatest tacticians" and he treats the Codex like it's the War Bible. If the Codex is garbage, then how bad is everyone else?
Veteran Sergeant wrote:How is it ~800? The fully staffed armory vehicles and transports require well over 400 Marines, lol. And that's by the limited list in 3rd Ed which doesn't include the 4th, 5th, and 6th edition released vehicles not included on that list, lol.
Right. It's just that the Space Marines don't use all their vehicles simultaneously. Which is kinda why they have entire companies intended to switch roles back and forth.
I mean, you can always ignore the Codex fluff and go by your own ideas, of course, but please don't go ahead and claim that GW's version is "silly" just because it doesn't add up with whatever you have come up with.
Veteran Sergeant wrote:You're going to have to explain how having dedicated drivers "exacerbates" any battlefield issues other than perhaps berthing facilities on smaller vessels of the fleet, lol. This argument defies all logic, and any military theory or application. "I have too many guys." Said no military commander ever.
I did explain it in the last post, did I not?
Let's assume your interpretation for a moment - suddenly we have "well over 400 Marines" sitting around doing nothing just because all missions currently undertaken by the Chapter do not involve vehicles. Given how rare Space Marines are in the galaxy, I'd think they would really be better off combining with another Chapter's dedicated drivers and found a whole new Chapter.
Are you even aware of how easily the "I have too many guys" phrase could be turned around when your military commander is looking at his pool of ~400 inactive drivers who could immediately deploy as Tactical Marines?
Nevelon wrote:If you believe that each chapter has a hard limit of 1,000 marines, then the only real option is to have the reserve companies drive the tanks.
If you believe that the 1,000 marines is the number of line troops, not including all the extra staff, support, command, etc, then a chapter would be crazy to have any of their 1,000 main troops tied up when they could use extranumanaries for the job.
Given the rate of attrition, and the time it takes to train up new marines, the answer is probably somewhere in between.
Yes, that is exactly what Games Workshop keeps saying since 2nd Edition, where the concept of supernumaries first showed up.
cadbren wrote:Maybe I'm hung up on the name reserves when they'd possibly be more accurately described as supporting services.
I think that would be it - and I agree that the term is somewhat misleading.
The Reserve Companies, as explained by GW, are not a copy of the frontline forces held back until reinforcements are needed - they go in with the Battle Companies, providing specialist support as well as acting as a pool for replacement of combat casualties.
cadbren wrote:Suddenly we're already 90 marines over and we haven't got to the really debatable stuff yet.
Supernumaries.
Alright, I'll bite. Or rather, I'll quote:
"A Chapter consists of ten companies each of one hundred Space Marines. A company consists of ten squads each of ten men including a sergeant. In addition to this basic fighting strength each company has its own Captain, Standard Bearer, Chaplain and Apothecary. A Chapter also includes a number of officers and specialists who stand aside from the company organisation. These individuals are known as the headquarters staff and they may be assigned to fight with a company in battle. Included amongst them are the psychic Librarians from the Chapter's Librarius and Techmarines together with their Servitors." "Each of the ten companies that comprises a Chapter is led by a Space Marine Captain and includes supernumaries such as the Company's Chaplain and Apothecary." - 2E C:UM
The existence and explanation of supernumaries is also printed in the Index Astartes, and it is also in the 5E Codex right there for people to look it up.
1hadhq wrote:The examples you like to ignore soo much, Joran VI, Delpha and Gerio provide a nice rundown of space marine forces.
I'm not ignoring them. The people who pretend that Space Marines always need to drop with all their vehicles do.
1hadhq wrote:One a patrol. A patrol with just reserve company members...the reserve you said would't be fielded on its own. Funny.
Those three engagements are a Retaliation Force, a Protection Force, and a Counter-Incursion. And none of them has only Marines from the Reserve.
1hadhq wrote:And just one last thing as its pretty late here:
( beachten sie, daß Fahrzeuge ( außer bikes ) und Raumschiffe komplette Mannschaften enthalten. )
So this is the problem ? the "contradiction"; ? That vehicles got crews, in 3rd ed when crews were listed in vehicle entrys ?
You are aware there is only 1 type of Land Raider present, the razorback pretty rare and no fliers. Like its 1998... BTW, a squad of 10 wasn't neccessary then, no weapon limit. Plus this codex was sold for 25 DM ( ~ 12,5 € )
The contradiction is that this one line is conflicting with fluff regarding the role of the Reserve Companies from sources both older and newer than the 3E book, and (to my knowledge, feel free to correct me!) is alone in claiming that it works that way. I mentioned this.
Also, the 3E chart does say "including variants" for the Land Raiders and does list Thunderhawks and Razorbacks.
2013/02/05 21:08:59
Subject: Re:Sgt Chronus and other Armoury marines?
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The 1500 number for a Chapter represents more of a theoretical strength of a chapter at completely 100%. No casualities at all, no vacancies.
In reality, no chapter will be at 100% strength ever. Given the novels I have read, it seems they cycle their line companies through. They go out and do their thing, and when casualities are suffered they cycle back to the Fortress to get a new batch of initiates to fill the empty boots.
So a chapter will maybe operate with 75-80% of its theoretical maximum at any one time.
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1hadhq wrote:The examples you like to ignore soo much, Joran VI, Delpha and Gerio provide a nice rundown of space marine forces.
I'm not ignoring them. The people who pretend that Space Marines always need to drop with all their vehicles do.
Who said they need to deploy all of their vehicles all the time? I was sure I used a codex with more than neccessary transport capacity available in vehicles.
Maybe another dex of 3rd, Armageddon and the multiple chapters attending with 9-10 or more companies could hint at a deployment of every marine not needed to defend their home or as space vessel crew or to train the next generation. The majority of a chapter in one place may happen. To use a lot of the transports at once too.
1hadhq wrote:One a patrol. A patrol with just reserve company members...the reserve you said would't be fielded on its own. Funny.
Those three engagements are a Retaliation Force, a Protection Force, and a Counter-Incursion. And none of them has only Marines from the Reserve.
And? The forces are all organized consistently as 1 main source and additional veterans and scouts. You said reserves wouldn't act without the battlecompanies. There they do. To have some veterans and scouts like other forces doesn't change this fact.
1hadhq wrote:And just one last thing as its pretty late here:
( beachten sie, daß Fahrzeuge ( außer bikes ) und Raumschiffe komplette Mannschaften enthalten. )
So this is the problem ? the "contradiction"; ? That vehicles got crews, in 3rd ed when crews were listed in vehicle entrys ?
You are aware there is only 1 type of Land Raider present, the razorback pretty rare and no fliers. Like its 1998... BTW, a squad of 10 wasn't neccessary then, no weapon limit. Plus this codex was sold for 25 DM ( ~ 12,5 € )
The contradiction is that this one line is conflicting with fluff regarding the role of the Reserve Companies from sources both older and newer than the 3E book, and (to my knowledge, feel free to correct me!) is alone in claiming that it works that way. I mentioned this.
Also, the 3E chart does say "including variants" for the Land Raiders and does list Thunderhawks and Razorbacks.
GW made a cut at 3rd edition. If older material "conflicts" or newer "conflicts" is irrelevant in context of the info provided inside the codex and the material provided in 3rd ed. The conflict you generate out of the blue sky does not exist.
Or, it isn't as you think it is. A conflict is there, since the snapshot at the back of the dex and the pic of the UM differs. But thats no surprise when you realize the pic is a showcase with old no longer available models at time of the release of this codex. Possible to cling to such non-issues.
Each edition has a design philosophy and a changing team of writers.
Under 3rd ed, a squad had no drawback from less than 10 models disembarking a transport because you didn't need 10 to gain access to options. Maybe unimportant to tell us where the drivers are from because without a pre-set strength ( motivated by rules ) of combat squad or full squad there are " free" marines in every squad if you just assume the 7 marines you have as 'passengers' got an 8th member or their squad driving their transport. Was there anything to motivate GW to provide a source of drivers?
So if the basic statement of : 10 squads a 10 marines in 10 companies = 1000 fits the common : a chapter = ~ 1000 marines, isn't the whole focus on 1000 a bit pointless when the subject are the duties GW never gave a definitive answer for?
You know, like we know the 1k is only the companies without any staff, commanders, fleet etc. Because any 'job' outside a 'act as member of squad X' wouldn't be part of the 1k. The DA mini-dex for example split the organization into HQ, 10 companies, arsenal and the administration and fleet. Again more than 100 additional marines.
1000 was never the upper limit of a chapter.
If one imagines they have more, to include dedicated crews , this creates no conflict. Its already more than 1k in the basic setup. Across all organizational schemes, be they close to codex astartes or creative application of it. Plus, the codex astartes is a copy of a copy of a ... making the decision who gets to drive more of a personal preferance of the HQ of a chapter.
A codex, mini-codices building up on it and the first IA's have no conflict. The add ons, the material dug up again at release of a new dex aren't as closely controlled as you would need to claim a real conflict. Because GW didn't say marine X of company Y drives rhino Z of squad A of company B.
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