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Good evening Ladies & Gentlemen,

I run a foot-horde army list filled with Platoons, Meltaguns, and Lascannons.

I'm now looking at buying some Heavy Support Vehicles, but I'm not sure which one best synargises with my army.

What would you recommend?

Thank you in advance.

-Dinkins

Well I run a DKoK siege list with the IG codex. I use 1 vanquisher(pask) 2 bessis and 1 mantacore. granted I have heavy weapon teams to (x3 autocannons and x3 lascannons)

AV-14.
All of the russes are better than what they were last edition, and they complement a foot-horde nicely. All those medium-str weapons your opponent may bring (missile launchers, Lootas) will be rendered all but useless, and they won't be able to dent that front armor and will be forced to shoot at infantry inefficiently. There really isn't a "wrong" russ choice atm. Even the Vanquisher can be ok depending on your meta.

The tanks are also easily swappable so long as you don't glue the gun in, so you'll be able to try out different options without proxying.

That said, find what works for you on the table. I don't know your meta and the internet can only be so helpful. (Just ask someone about Marbo on here, or AC vs LC. hehe)

I find the most successful tanks I run are the excecutioner, punisher and standard leman russ battle tank, with the demolisher as an honorable mention.

I like the Executioner, the Exterminator and the Demolisher with the LRBT in the honorable mention slot.

But the advice here is sound; find out what is in your meta, then bring the leman russ to counter it.

I agree that russes are generally better than artillery nowadays. You can still make artillery work, but russes are now ultra gunboats thanks to the heavy rule. A pair of multimelta sponsons and a lascannon only costs 45 points - the same price as the same firepower on an HWS, but it comes on an AV14 chassis, which is much, much, MUCH more durable.

As for which, obviously ordnance russes took it in the teeth with the switch over to heavy, which puts the punisher and the vanquisher at the top of my list of HS choices at the moment. The other non-ordnance russes can do okay, but generally have some flaw that makes them less worth taking than the aforementioned two.

Well, it seems like the LRBT is the way to go.

Wasn't there something that made people think twice about taking sponsons?

My apologies, I don't have my BRB on me.

If you don't mind me asking, what are some loadouts or things to keep in mind when using these epic tanks?

-Dinkins

As for the sponsons: The previous "Lumbering Behemoth" rule was changed to "Heavy." So it boils down to this:

If the turret weapon is ordinance, then don't take sponsons, as only to turret weapon will be able to fire. If the turret isn't ordinace, take those sponsons.

As for which tank works best, again, I'd first advise taking it to the table and trying different things out. It seems we have a big split on dakka regarding the vanquisher and exterminator versus the other russ variants. The only tank people around here seem to agree on is the executioner with plasma sponsons. If nothing else, try that one out at least once, and watch it vaporize whatever it was pointing at.

As for loadouts, just be aware of the ordinace rule, and make sure the sponsons work well with the main gun. Bolters for Punishers, Plasma for the executioner, MultiMeltas for the Vanquisher ect. . .

Edit: I thought I'd mention, while much more durable, it's also much more expensive, so be careful how many points you want to throw into one tank. If said tank goes down in assault or to a deepstriking melta or to a railgun, you will loose a reasonable chunk of firepower with it as well (I'm looking at you 250point pask-punisher of awesome.)

Oh, and if it's worth bringing one, bring three of it, just in case.

 kestril wrote:
AV-14.
All of the russes are better than what they were last edition, and they complement a foot-horde nicely.

Well that's simply not true.

Ordinance russes took a significant hit with the removal of Lumbering Behemoth.

If you run a gunline, you should be taking Heavy Artillery carriages.

T7, W4, SV3+ versions of your artillery that are immobile, can take up to 5 crewmen, can receive orders, and are significantly cheaper than the vehicle versions. (around a third cheaper)

 CaptainGrey wrote:

 kestril wrote:
AV-14.
All of the russes are better than what they were last edition, and they complement a foot-horde nicely.

Well that's simply not true.

Ordinance russes took a significant hit with the removal of Lumbering Behemoth.

If you run a gunline, you should be taking Heavy Artillery carriages.

T7, W4, SV3+ versions of your artillery that are immobile, can take up to 5 crewmen, can receive orders, and are significantly cheaper than the vehicle versions. (around a third cheaper)

Is what you are talking about in the codex or a forge world book?

 CaptainGrey wrote:

 kestril wrote:
AV-14.
All of the russes are better than what they were last edition, and they complement a foot-horde nicely.

Well that's simply not true.

Ordinance russes took a significant hit with the removal of Lumbering Behemoth.

If you run a gunline, you should be taking Heavy Artillery carriages.

T7, W4, SV3+ versions of your artillery that are immobile, can take up to 5 crewmen, can receive orders, and are significantly cheaper than the vehicle versions. (around a third cheaper)

Russes don't get stun-locked anymore. That boon surpasses the minor inconvenience of having to snap-fire a heavy bolter. Plus, weapon destruction is randomly allocated. Chances are, that that battlecannon will not stop firing until the entire tank is shut down. I don't really see how that is significant. At all.

Artillery is crazy though. I recommend clearing FW stuff with your buddies at the FLGS. A good freind once said to me, "You know you win at 40k when no one will play you." So if they are cool with that, by all means, take the insane FW foot artillery.

 iheartlargeblasttemplates wrote:


Is what you are talking about in the codex or a forge world book?

Should be in Imperial Armor: Volume 2. Rules for it are also available from FW's website.

I'm not sure if telling a newcomer to take units from Forgeworld and that may not be okay with his gaming group is good advice. FW artillery is crazy op, and many people simply won't play against you.

OP I'd recommend Russes . Here's a quick rundown of the more popular varients:

Standard Leman Russ - Not bad, but pretty much all the other varients are a lot better. They are cheap though, so you can pack a fair few into a list.

Demolisher - Better than the Standard, though only 24" range. Chances are if you're guard then your enemy will be getting in your face anyway so this may not be such a disadvantage. I usually run 3 of these if I can, since they're fairly cheap and can put the hurt on every unit in the game bar flyers.

Executioner - Plenty of plasma shots, though kind of expensive. In my opinion not as useful as many think since you'll often hit only one model or miss completely.

Punisher - good at killing infantry, including marines (just people it's AP - doesn't mean it can't kill marines). Worth taking Heavy bolter sponsons with. Also Pask is a strong choice since both of his abilities are much better suited to the firepower of the Punisher.

Of my last two games, one was all Demolishers and one was all vanillas. On the Demolisher game, they flopped against terminators. Though I managed to hit and wound them all, my opponent passed all 6 of his 5+ invulnerable saves but he got seriously lucky. I'd still consider 3 * Demolishers a good take.

The game with the vanilla Russes, they just bounced off Necron AV 13 and wraithes, then got wasted by a bastard flyer. I doubt I'll be taking them as vanilla again.

 BryllCream wrote:
I'm not sure if telling a newcomer to take units from Forgeworld and that may not be okay with his gaming group is good advice. FW artillery is crazy op.

Its immobile, t7 (roughly equivalent to AV10) and has one more "hull point", and can be forced to take leadership checks.

The only thing it has going for it is that its 30ish points cheaper.

Better for gunlines? Yes. They're fantastic for gunlines.

Overpowered? No. They're very build-specific.

many people simply won't play against you.

Awareness causes acceptance. FW acceptance is at an all-time high, and will continue to grow as long as there are players exposing their FLGS players to it.

There are plenty of things you should refuse playing against before you refuse FW, and those are GW. (Cron Air, Tzeentch Daemon lists, and as Daemons, GK Quake Spam, to name a few).

Punisher - good at killing infantry, including marines (just people it's AP - doesn't mean it can't kill marines).

Hits 10, Wounds 8.3, kills 2.7 Marines. As a tank.

"Meh."

If you're taking Leman Russes, take an Armored BattleGroup allied contingent, and then if you still feel like bringing punisher cannons, bring the Punisher Vulture (Heavy support for ABG). At least it can reliably put down 19.7 Str5 hits, 2 of which are AP4. Oh. And there's that whole "it flies" thing. That's nice too.

 CaptainGrey wrote:

Overpowered? No. They're very build-specific.

I dunno capt', overpowered? Unlikely, Under-costed? Probably.

I'm not entirely sure they're any more build specific than the generic codex equivalents.

Wraithlord wrote:
Well, it seems like the LRBT is the way to go.

Wasn't there something that made people think twice about taking sponsons?

My apologies, I don't have my BRB on me.

If you don't mind me asking, what are some loadouts or things to keep in mind when using these epic tanks?

-Dinkins

The LRBT is now, actually, one of the least useful. The "Lumbering Behemoth" rule listed in the codex no longer applies, instead it now acts as a "Heavy Vehicle." This means that if you fire your Battle Cannon, all your other weapons (sponsons, hull mount, pintle) all ONLY fire snap-shops and hit on 6's. A waste of points. You can even argue that taking a naked LRBT is a waste of points, as you are essentially paying 150pts for a mobile battle cannon. At that rate, why not pay 150 for TWO Earthshaker cannon carriages, whose carries a gun which is strictly better than the battle cannon.

In the current meta, it's the non-ordnance Russes that you want to be looking at.

What I'm really looking for is some long-ranged firepower (High Range, High Strength, Low AP, Large Blast).

I need something that will keep my opponent from staying in the trenches.

I love the idea of the forgeworld artillery, it fits the list really well and is pretty fluffy.

But $105 seems a little pricey, especially since I would have more then one.

Would it be possible to convert something to look like them?

Or should I just use the basic LRBT and have it sit behind an Aegis.

-Dinkins

Wraithlord wrote:
What I'm really looking for is some long-ranged firepower (High Range, High Strength, Low AP, Large Blast).

I need something that will keep my opponent from staying in the trenches.

I love the idea of the forgeworld artillery, it fits the list really well and is pretty fluffy.

But $105 seems a little pricey, especially since I would have more then one.

Would it be possible to convert something to look like them?

Or should I just use the basic LRBT and have it sit behind an Aegis.

-Dinkins

Look into Bassies or Manticores. That meets all your criteria of High Range, High Strength, Low AP, and Large Blast. You can also field a Griffin in the same Ordanance Squadron as 2 Bassies to make your Artillery more accurate.

Either some basilisks or som medusas would do you right

 CaptainGrey wrote:

 BryllCream wrote:
I'm not sure if telling a newcomer to take units from Forgeworld and that may not be okay with his gaming group is good advice. FW artillery is crazy op.

Its immobile, t7 (roughly equivalent to AV10) and has one more "hull point", and can be forced to take leadership checks.

The only thing it has going for it is that its 30ish points cheaper.

Better for gunlines? Yes. They're fantastic for gunlines.

Overpowered? No. They're very build-specific.

Artillery are OP my friend.

 CaptainGrey wrote:


Awareness causes acceptance. FW acceptance is at an all-time high, and will continue to grow as long as there are players exposing their FLGS players to it.

There are plenty of things you should refuse playing against before you refuse FW, and those are GW. (Cron Air, Tzeentch Daemon lists, and as Daemons, GK Quake Spam, to name a few).

I've run or been against cron air and both Fateweaver flyer spam, and flamer spam. They don't compare to forgeworld.

Anyway, codexs are, by nature of codexes, more legitimate than forgeworld. You can deny that but it's true.

 CaptainGrey wrote:

Hits 10, Wounds 8.3, kills 2.7 Marines. As a tank.

"Meh."

Plus another kill from heavy bolters. That's 3.7 MEQ kills. I'd like to see a pie plate russ average that.

 CaptainGrey wrote:

If you're taking Leman Russes, take an Armored BattleGroup allied contingent, and then if you still feel like bringing punisher cannons, bring the Punisher Vulture (Heavy support for ABG). At least it can reliably put down 19.7 Str5 hits, 2 of which are AP4. Oh. And there's that whole "it flies" thing. That's nice too.

So you constantly recommend Forgeworld alternatives as being more powerful than the codex options, yet deny that Forgeworld is OP? Oh my

Wraithlord wrote:What I'm really looking for is some long-ranged firepower (High Range, High Strength, Low AP, Large Blast).

I think you might want to reconsider your definition of long-ranged firepower. What you're looking for is stuff that kills things right away, which the S and Ap are good for, but there's no reason whatsoever that you need to restrict yourself to large blast weapons.

Which is important, because, with the exception of the medusa, none of the other large blasts have the combination of range, S and Ap that you're going to be looking for. And even then, the medusa doesn't have a huge range.

As for the LRBT, it's probably your worst possible option. Ordnance means snap firing hull weapons (hull weapons being more or less the point of russes in a heavy world), while Ap3 means you're not doing anything spectacular to Sv2+ or vehicles, while the fact that it's one-shot, even with the large blast rule, means that it's not going to do much against infantry, especially if it doesn't ignore cover. It's literally the worst russ, and probably the worst HS choice you can take at the moment. If you really want a 150 point russ, take an exterminator, as it beats the LRBT against nearly every possible target type (including AV13).

And yeah, I'd stay away from forgeworld artillery. Taking one of the cheesiest things from an optional 40k expansion and using it to bolster the most boring style to play against is going to win you few friends, and thus, few games with those expensive models you just bought.

 Cappizzano wrote:

You can also field a Griffin in the same Ordanance Squadron as 2 Bassies to make your Artillery more accurate.

Doesn't Accurate Bombardment state that only Griffons are able to re-roll the scatter dice?

I think I'm going to go with Basilisks for my choice of support.

-Dinkins

As for the arty carriages, it's relatively easy to convert the basilisk kit into a carriage, it's a project i'm working on right now; all you need is some wheels (Chapterhouse Studios sells some) and some plasticard to make the assembly, not terribly exhausting.

That being said, Russes are a more dynamic and useful HS choice, but seeing as I play an armoured company most of the time, I'm somewhat biased.

Generally speaking, when choosing russes, figure out what it is your army is lacking first. If you're lacking anti-tank, a pask-vanquisher with MM and LC is very viable, or an exterminator with the same loadout, though pask isn't as important on that one, if you're hurting for 50 points.

If monstrous creatures are proving problematic, a pask-punisher with bolters is rather nice; I've been running that consistently as an allied vanilla guard detachement, and it regularly kills C'Tan shards in one round of shooting, reduces to Trygons to one or two wounds, etc.

If you're fighting a lot of terminators and other 2+ units, bare-bones demolishers are actually fairly cost effective, and the Executioner can do more damage, but I find that small blast makes it somewhat unreliable, even with 3 shots normally. It'sa little pricy, and beware, the side sponsons are affected by the Gets Hot rule, unlike the main gun, so you can glance that now 240 point model with your own shooting. I don't know about you, but I roll far too many ones for that.

Those are generally the more useful variants, the Eradicator is only really valuable against gunline armies with worse than 3+ saves, so Tau, Guard, Eldar. It can knock low-save units out of buildings and cover somewhat effectively, but has no utility against tanks, marines or anything with a good save. I've been running one for a while, and while it annoys the hell out of a local eldar player, it usually doesn't do anything of note to anyone else.

The vanilla Russ has some utility against a footslogging Marine army, but really, you're better off paying 15 more points for a demolisher which, while having worse range, will murder not just standard marines, but any characters, terminators, honour guard or equivalents thereof. Generally speaking, as the Guard, the enemy will come to you, so that range isn't an enormous detriment.

How did this get to an argument about FW again?

For the most part, a lot depends on what you run and what you play against. Arty can be very build and enemy specific, but when it works out arty is devastating.'

I find Russes to be a much more dynamic and flexible option, as there are many different builds for them. If you lack AT, a vanquisher with Pask (wouldn't run it any other way really, a one shot BS3 cannon never spoke well to me for the points) can help cover it a bit. If you need anti-horde, any template russ can help out there. MC can be dealt with by a punisher. That's just a few options really.

One thing to keep in mind however, is that Russes are not cheap. In order to get a fully effective option, it can get really pricy. Not sure how much you have to work with, but keep this in mind. Many people hate LRBT's now thanks to the hit losing LB was, but I find if I need a bit of template action and I can afford it, a simple 150 point vanilla LRBT works for me. It's outclassed by the demolisher in a lot of cases for only 15 more points, so I tend to only take base LRBT's in low point games where I can't get other Russes. Taking any sort of Russ in a sub 1000 point game can be killer, both on your points but on the enemy as well.

Lol now I think I'm just going to use LRBT. Rule of cool for me =D

 BryllCream wrote:

I've run or been against cron air and both Fateweaver flyer spam, and flamer spam. They don't compare to forgeworld.

Anyway, codexs are, by nature of codexes, more legitimate than forgeworld. You can deny that but it's true.

So you constantly recommend Forgeworld alternatives as being more powerful than the codex options, yet deny that Forgeworld is OP? Oh my

No. Just...no.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Wraithlord wrote:
Lol now I think I'm just going to use LRBT. Rule of cool for me =D

I do say, if you're uninterested in converting Heavy Artillery Cages, you may want to look into the Basilisk. It fits your criteria of "long range, low AP, high strength" and will be better at targeting foes from behind cover thanks to the barrage rule, making dealing with pesky Aegis Gunlines far easier.

 CaptainGrey wrote:

 BryllCream wrote:

I've run or been against cron air and both Fateweaver flyer spam, and flamer spam. They don't compare to forgeworld.

Anyway, codexs are, by nature of codexes, more legitimate than forgeworld. You can deny that but it's true.

So you constantly recommend Forgeworld alternatives as being more powerful than the codex options, yet deny that Forgeworld is OP? Oh my

No. Just...no.

Can you guys just cut out the FW discussion hahaha, not like it's a major help here. I wouldn't suggest FW to him until he knows if he could use FW in his games, because not everyone allows it still. Most do, but ya never know.

And honestly, there are still strong choices in the codex. Different choices, but still strong ones in the end.

I just don't see this helping him any. All yall have done is argue over if FW is OP or not, which isn't helping him any.


On topic: If rule of cool is your thing, Arty is still a good choice. You can do some fun looking things with arty models. Russes can also fit the bill, I have seen people model on tank riders and things. My friend did a HUGE modeling project to reflect his Soviet like Guardsmen by making massive tank walls covered in Guardsmen with AK looking las-gun conversions. It wasn't meant to game with, just to display, but it was freaking awesome looking. If you have track guards, however

 washout77 wrote:
I wouldn't suggest FW to him until he knows if he could use FW in his games, because not everyone allows it still. Most do, but ya never know.

I just don't see this helping him any. All yall have done is argue over if FW is OP or not, which isn't helping him any.

There is no argument. I recommended valid FW choices. Bryll decided to nitpick every suggestion of mine for invalid reasoning.

I agree with you that OP should find out if FW is allowable in his meta, but not before suggesting FW. I would suggest FW ALONG WITH finding out if it is allowable. Make the FW option the first choice, and then change to accomodate your meta if they decide to rule it out.

As I said, exposure breeds acceptance; its important not to cave in so easily in fear that your FW models might be rejected.

-CaptGrey

 CaptainGrey wrote:

 washout77 wrote:
I wouldn't suggest FW to him until he knows if he could use FW in his games, because not everyone allows it still. Most do, but ya never know.

I just don't see this helping him any. All yall have done is argue over if FW is OP or not, which isn't helping him any.

There is no argument. I recommended valid FW choices. Bryll decided to nitpick every suggestion of mine for invalid reasoning.

I agree with you that OP should find out if FW is allowable in his meta, but not before suggesting FW. I would suggest FW ALONG WITH finding out if it is allowable. Make the FW option the first choice, and then change to accomodate your meta if they decide to rule it out.

As I said, exposure breeds acceptance; its important not to cave in so easily in fear that your FW models might be rejected.

-CaptGrey

Still, you could just ignore him instead of replying...

I guess we just think differently, I would agree with most of what you said but I don't think he should go out and buy models and things for units that might not be used. He may want to design an army with them, but I wouldn't build and paint anything FW up until I know for a fact that I could use it. Maybe it's just my limited budget talking though, so every dollar counts. Or have I just misunderstood what you meant?

Edit: Impoliteness edited away into the warp.

 CaptainGrey wrote:



Silly me, my bad. I earnestly was trying to say this. I think this is the way to go. Show up to his Gaming group "Hey guys, here is my list. At the bottom you might notice a FW unit or two. Is that alright?"

Yes? They stay in the list.

No? He replaces them.

Seems like the smart way to go about it, and either way, you're not wasting money on something you don't want to/can't use.

Ooohhhh okay! Hahahahaha yep I misunderstood you. That's good with me! Sorry about that, I have a problem with misunderstanding people on the internet it seems