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Your units are too big I think. 20 trolls doesn't serve much of a purpose except steadfast, but that assumes the enemy is doing more wounds(!!!!) than the Trolls. AHW stomping barfing trolls should be coming out way ahead of anything. But being that so bad, they don't have a musician, command, and isn't as mobile. And still can periodically do Stupid things. But you're too big to put the hurt on anything except the most stupendously large units.

6 MI are a perfect size. The rear rank wont even get their AHW attack or stomp. Have 9 /10 for insurance. But 20 is mucho.

Your ogres can benefit from marks. Give them a TZ banner that lowers shooting and have your troll armada behind them (trolls can't take marks or banner). It essentially makes your ogres immune to cannons and anyone behind them (that they can't target).

I see nothing in dragon ogre entry that says they can have marks, or banner.

The ahw is so the trolls reach minimum core.

20 ofensure I get as many attacks as possible bearing in mind they are going last against most things and smash unitsin 1 turn.

In his meta there are units of 25+ Ogres, 40 chosen, 50 stormvermin, 30 executioners etc 20 Trolls is not so big.

A good point raised by Flingitnow. Due to what i face i need that kind of killing power to win combats.

If this was 7th where 5 x 5 units were the norm then i would break them up into probably 2 units of 6 and one of 8.

Alas, we now live in the edition of hordes galore. Hence why my ogres always run in monsterous hordes.

Its also the theory behind 2-3 BIG units forming a battleline rather than 5-6 20-25 man units.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Firstly Archaon doesn't need to challenge he's in a unit with 2 other CoC who could challenge instead. Im also aware of flaming banners and miasma I don't see how that makes a difference? Name me a big unit that is not hurt my okams? Yes Okams kills big units we all know this. A big unit with regen and/or high initiative is going to do better against Okams than a unit without.

If the Skullcrushers are miasma'd then mindrazored off the board, it is goodbye Archaon and BSB. As a double 1 with a reroll is still unlikely to be made. At 3k you need more than five deployments. Chances are, your opponent will feed Archaon the minimum, destroy the rest of the army as there is very little of it and then bring his entire army to bear on the skullcrushers.

Don't get me wrong, Skullcrushers + Archaon are a brutal unit, but you need things to synergise with them. This is mostly knights and warhounds. And units to break steadfast.

I would consider blocks of 24 warriors to make up core. And a cheeky warhound unit to stop your big expensive unit charging at an inopportune moment.

Blocks of Warriors in a "3K Monster List"?


.....................................................no.

If you've got the time and put in the effort you could convert some warriors for count as "monsters". Keeps the theme alive and lets you have chaos warriors.

I've always been interested in starting this kind of army, but I never had the drive to get it started. I already have roughly 3k worth of chaos, well more like 4k now and a lot of it still needs to be painted lol.

I fully appreciate that wrarriors are still probably the best all rounds troops in warhammer, let alone WoC. But i used to have a warriors heavy army and as good at it was, i would effectively be going over old ground.

I've wanted to do a throgg list for a LONG time and this is my chance with a new awesome model for Throgg.

The fact is, you can't rely on trolls to break steadfast. They have a mediocre-bad statline and their only saving grace is their strength.

And they limit you in deployments. You are going to get outdeployed by most armies. Bar the 90 bloodletter DoC army and a few others.

I would advise on taking a unit of 8 trolls with throgg and fill the rest of your core with warhounds and marauder horsemen. These will synergise with your army quite well, as they fill the roles of redirectors and war machine hunters. Templates are still your fear.

Getting some war hounds in there would help a lot without breaking the Monster-Mash style.
Also, the Hellcannon is a Monster...

As for the Everchosen, he may be a good buy in most regards, but I'd rather spend those points on multiple characters for versatility and to offer multiple targets. As tough as the Big Guy is, he's still only one model.

But yes, as for what units can be dealt with via Mindrazor, I don't think we need to bother mentioning them. It's a stupid-good spell in a stupid-good Lore. Saying a unit is vulnerable to it is like saying a unit is vulnerable to large numbers of high WS, high S, ASF attacks; everything is vulnerable to it.

Warpsolution wrote:
But yes, as for what units can be dealt with via Mindrazor, I don't think we need to bother mentioning them. It's a stupid-good spell in a stupid-good Lore. Saying a unit is vulnerable to it is like saying a unit is vulnerable to large numbers of high WS, high S, ASF attacks; everything is vulnerable to it.

Seeing as everyone misinterpreted me, what I meant to say was; In most armies at this size, you can take a mindrazor-ed unit and still continue the game without losing too much. Skaven are a prime culprit of this. But in an army where all the units are so expensive, a single mindrazor will be a turbocharged boot to the face.

I acknowledge your point about mindrazor.

Thats why i'm taking shadow on both wizards to do some initiative dropping/mindrazoring of my own.

The best counter to mindrazor is to run small- medium units.

I still think you need something that will break steadfast rather than something that can.

Lets assume the trolls are against units of 40:

Vs str3, t3- clanrat spearman

40A, hit on 4's =20, wound on 5's=6-7, regen save =3-3.5 wounds= 1 dead troll

Trolls, deployed 6 wide= 60A, hit on 4's= 30, wound on 2's= 25 wounds plus 6 stomps= 30 wounds no armour save.

Break steadfast.

Vs str 4, t4- 40 saurus warriors with spears

Trolls go first- 60A=30 hits. 3's to wound=20 wounds minus armour saves = 16-17 dead saurus.l plus stomps =20-21 dead total.

Saurus have 50 (for spears)= 25 hits, 12.5 wounds= 6.25 wounds after regen.

Break steadfast.

This is the soort of thing i'll come across. How can you say it won't break units? And please don't say the unit can be mindrazored, we know that can happen, but very few round my way take shadow and you cannot build and army to combat it. Best you can do is use it yourself and have a scroll to stop them.

Having had the army book in my hands for a few days now, i was mulling over a force like this, but mutating it from a monster list to a more standard list, i would be looking to remove Throgg and trolls and bang in warrior units and a warshrine, giving poss chance to turn every chosen, character etc into a DP on a 12 with 3 D6! not gonna happen but frightening.

Archaeon DP statline horror!

Needs thinking about.

 mixer86 wrote:
Lets assume the trolls are against units of 40:

Vs str3, t3- clanrat spearman

40A, hit on 4's =20, wound on 5's=6-7, regen save =3-3.5 wounds= 1 dead troll

Trolls, deployed 6 wide= 60A, hit on 4's= 30, wound on 2's= 25 wounds plus 6 stomps= 30 wounds no armour save.

Break steadfast.

Vs str 4, t4- 40 saurus warriors with spears

Trolls go first- 60A=30 hits. 3's to wound=20 wounds minus armour saves = 16-17 dead saurus.l plus stomps =20-21 dead total.

Saurus have 50 (for spears)= 25 hits, 12.5 wounds= 6.25 wounds after regen.

Break steadfast.

This is the soort of thing i'll come across. How can you say it won't break units? And please don't say the unit can be mindrazored, we know that can happen, but very few round my way take shadow and you cannot build and army to combat it. Best you can do is use it yourself and have a scroll to stop them.

The trolls will without a doubt break steadfast on clanrats. But any competent lizardmen player will make sure that by the time you hit his saurus they will be buffed up the nose, and have the parry save.

Mindrazor isn't the only spell you have to worry about. It is just the easiest to use as an example. I'm not saying it won't break units. It just isn't guaranteed to break it.

Don't bother with AHW on your trolls, only your front rank get the benefit of it

Tiarna Fuilteach wrote:
Don't bother with AHW on your trolls, only your front rank get the benefit of it

Normally I wouldn't but 20 with ahw=760 which covers core requirement.

Been tweaking and playing around with this and i have a few proposed changes/additons:

Archaon- Dorghar

Throgg
Exalted Hero- BSB, MoK, Shield, Jugger
Sorcerer- L2, Daemonic Mount, Dispel Scroll, Charmed Shield, Chalice of Chaos

18 Trolls
Chaos Chariot- MoK
Chaos Chariot- MoK

Chaos Warshrine- MoT

7 Skullcrushers- FC, Ensorcelled Weapons

Total- 2849

Added the chariots for flank protecting/chaff clearing.

With Archaon and Throgg smashing things left, right and centre, plus archaon's reroll on the eye of the gods plus the 3d6 for each roll the warshrine seemed like a good addition.

leaves me with 151 points. any suggestions/comments?

unit of marauder horsemen and some dogs maybe?

Drop a chariot and take a Chimera?

Or drop a Troll and get a unit of dragon ogres.

Not keen on anything marauder really.

1 chimera, gets popped easy and losing a chariot for flank protection.

Losing 1 troll for drogres would mean naked drogres as i've dropped ahw from trolls. Not even ahw for them.

Maybe drop a troll and 10 point item for 3rd chariot- MoK and extra crusher?

Or maybe getting a gore beast in there plus some mutations/banner for crushers etc?

Yeah gorebeast would be good.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Yeah gorebeast would be good.

Gonna add the flaming banner to skullcrushers to taking on annoying nurgle/festus combos and regen in general.

140 points left:

Gorebeast chariot with MoK

OR

Second MoT Warshrine for double stacking eye of the gods rolls?

Archaon possibly getting 2 rolls per turn is nasty.

Go with gorebeast.

Was the way i was leaning.

Can support the slower trolls rather than the skullcrushers.

i think i might be sorted with this then:

Archaon- Dorghar- 650

Exalted Hero- MoK, BSB, Shield, Juggernaut- 203
Sorcerer- Level 2, Daemonic Mount, Dispel Scroll, Chalice of Chaos, Charmed Shield- 220
Throgg- 195

18 Chaos Trolls- 630
Chariot of Chaos- MoK-120
Chariot of Chaos- MoK-120

Chaos Warshrine- MoT- 135
Gore Beast Chariot- MoK- 140

7 Skull Crushers of Khorne- FC, Banner of Eternal Flame, Ensorcelled Weapons- 586

Total- 2999

Looks good. Now how on earth do I deal with Archaon?

Funny story. 3 un upgraded bull centaurs is 120 points T5 and a 3+ save. Does no impact hits and has a total of 6 S4 attacks and 3 S4 stomps, compare and contrast with a Khorne Chariot!

Theres 2 things you can do:

1-absolutely nothing
2- like it

Centaurs can march. I'm struggling after that.

which forgeworld book are bull centaurs in?

BAN wrote:
which forgeworld book are bull centaurs in?

Tamurkhan