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In the BRB for blast, it says you allocate wounds as a normal shooting attack. So all wounds are taken from the front, rather than from where the blast marker lies? So just because I were to target a character model and get multiple wounds, lets say three, and the character were the 4th model back he would be fine, despite being directly under the blast?

Yep. Blasts allocates as normal. Barrage uses the central hole.

So basically all you want do with it is try to get as many hits as possible, rather than take out specific characters or special equipment. Kinda lame, IMO. A friend and I have been playing since August and I just now decided to read the rule all the way through. Going to be hard to adjust. Oh well. Thank you

Same with the flame template. The models wounded do NOT need to be the models under the flame template.

Cheesedoodler wrote:
Same with the flame template. The models wounded do NOT need to be the models under the flame template.

Well under the new FAQ if you are only using flame templates then you can only kill what is in range when rolling to hit, as flame templates is your rolling to hit it may not be as wise to just use templates.

Templar_Grist wrote:
In the BRB for blast, it says you allocate wounds as a normal shooting attack. So all wounds are taken from the front, rather than from where the blast marker lies? So just because I were to target a character model and get multiple wounds, lets say three, and the character were the 4th model back he would be fine, despite being directly under the blast?

I was also informed that wounds created by a "blast" weapon must also have LOS to wound. Unless of course it is a "barrage" type...SO if you have a blast template over 5 and only hve LOS to 1, the 1 is all you can get.

 jb1 wrote:

Templar_Grist wrote:
In the BRB for blast, it says you allocate wounds as a normal shooting attack. So all wounds are taken from the front, rather than from where the blast marker lies? So just because I were to target a character model and get multiple wounds, lets say three, and the character were the 4th model back he would be fine, despite being directly under the blast?

I was also informed that wounds created by a "blast" weapon must also have LOS to wound. Unless of course it is a "barrage" type...SO if you have a blast template over 5 and only hve LOS to 1, the 1 is all you can get.

The rules for blast allow for hits and wounding as normal if a unit is hit even if it is out of sight and out of range. The FAQ makes sure that models are still hit even if they are out of LoS as long as the targeted model fall within the range and LOS.

It somewhat defeats the purpose of blast if it can only hit one guy. It's the whole purpose of a blast, to hit stuff that you can't see!

That is why I like barrage you can snipe leaders or special weapons if you get a hit.

.

They can hit and roll to wound against models out side of LoS, but nothing gives permission to allocate those wounds to models out of LoS.

So if your blast marker covers five guys in a unit, but you can only see one, you'll roll to wound against all 5 but any wounds will be allocated to the one you can see until he is dead.

Chrysis wrote:
They can hit and roll to wound against models out side of LoS, but nothing gives permission to allocate those wounds to models out of LoS.

So if your blast marker covers five guys in a unit, but you can only see one, you'll roll to wound against all 5 but any wounds will be allocated to the one you can see until he is dead.

What would be the point of stating that a blast wound can hit and wound a unit that is out of LoS and out of range if you can"t really wound them?

Once again, it defeats the purpose of the blast marker.

Since it's been written that a blast marker can hit and wound out of line of sight, then it would stand to reason that this is always the case.

Just to throw a curve ball: A double 6 on the shock attack gun states that all models under the template are removed. Would the, can't see 'em can't kill 'em rule apply there. Obviously not.

Blast templates are indiscriminate weapons. That's why you can hit your own troops, troops locked in combat, something that you didn't aim at or nothing at all. you have to take the good with the bad. Not just the bad.

 jb1 wrote:

It somewhat defeats the purpose of blast if it can only hit one guy. It's the whole purpose of a blast, to hit stuff that you can't see"!"

Wrong.. Thats the whole purpose of barrage in 6th ed.


This is going to go on a while...... Im predicting 10 or so pages....

Camarodragon wrote:

 jb1 wrote:

It somewhat defeats the purpose of blast if it can only hit one guy. It's the whole purpose of a blast, to hit stuff that you can't see"!"

Wrong.. Thats the whole purpose of barrage in 6th ed.


This is going to go on a while...... Im predicting 10 or so pages....

Sorry but I didn't quote that, Idolator did. The quote function didnt work for me, but I fixed it somewhat.

Chrysis wrote:


Just to throw a curve ball: A double 6 on the shock attack gun states that all models under the template are removed. Would the, can't see 'em can't kill 'em rule apply there. Obviously not.

Blast templates are indiscriminate weapons. That's why you can hit your own troops, troops locked in combat, something that you didn't aim at or nothing at all. you have to take the good with the bad. Not just the bad.

Your argument is totally baseless and holds no water. Why you ask?? I have never in all my years of playing seen someone actually field a shock attack gun!!!!

Kidding aside, the models are removed, as the weapon bypasses the normal blast rules of wounding and wound allocation as stated in the ork codex.

It is a totally different thing now in 6th Ed than it was in 5th. If you can’t see it, (and now with the new FAQ, if its out of range) you can’t wound allocate it. Direct shooting and blasts alloocate the same. Say this fast 25 times over and over and you'll get it.

Camarodragon wrote:
Direct shooting and blasts alloocate the same. Say this fast 25 times over and over and you'll get it.

I'm assuming by Direct shooting you are talking about Barrage weapons? If so they allocate as if the shot came from the center hole, not the firing model.

 Happyjew wrote:

Camarodragon wrote:
Direct shooting and blasts alloocate the same. Say this fast 25 times over and over and you'll get it.

I'm assuming by Direct shooting you are talking about Barrage weapons? If so they allocate as if the shot came from the center hole, not the firing model.

No, perhaps the wrong choice of words.. How about shooting and blasts allocate the same... as in lascannon or bolter or meltagun.

Chrysis wrote:
They can hit and roll to wound against models out side of LoS, but nothing gives permission to allocate those wounds to models out of LoS.

So if your blast marker covers five guys in a unit, but you can only see one, you'll roll to wound against all 5 but any wounds will be allocated to the one you can see until he is dead.

HUH

What's mystifying about what you quoted? It's exactly correct.

The blast rules explcitly allow them to hit and wound models out of LOS. To argue that they do not have permission to allocate wounds on models out of LOS is absurd.

 Mannahnin wrote:
The blast rules explcitly allow them to hit and wound models out of LOS. To argue that they do not have permission to allocate wounds on models out of LOS is absurd.

Please enlighten us how you get permission to do that.

 Mannahnin wrote:
The blast rules explcitly allow them to hit and wound models out of LOS. To argue that they do not have permission to allocate wounds on models out of LOS is absurd.

I prefer to call it basic literacy, but you can call it absurd if you like.

To kill a model you need to hit, wound, and allocate an unsaved wound to it.

The Blast rules give you permission to hit and wound, but they do not give you permission to allocate to a model that is out of Line of Sight.

This is to prevent a bad scatter from completely negating a marker because it covers models from the same unit that are out of line of sight. It also prevents you from hoping for a scatter so you can kill a unit that wouldn't have been a valid target in the first place.

This obviously doesn't apply to Barrage, which is completely different to Blast (although always uses a marker) and thus has it's own rules.

Chrysis wrote:

 Mannahnin wrote:
The blast rules explcitly allow them to hit and wound models out of LOS. To argue that they do not have permission to allocate wounds on models out of LOS is absurd.

I prefer to call it basic literacy, but you can call it absurd if you like.

To kill a model you need to hit, wound, and allocate an unsaved wound to it.

The Blast rules give you permission to hit and wound, but they do not give you permission to allocate to a model that is out of Line of Sight.

This is to prevent a bad scatter from completely negating a marker because it covers models from the same unit that are out of line of sight. It also prevents you from hoping for a scatter so you can kill a unit that wouldn't have been a valid target in the first place.

This obviously doesn't apply to Barrage, which is completely different to Blast (although always uses a marker) and thus has it's own rules.

So why do the rules point out that you can hit and wound units that are out of sight and out of range if you can't allocate wounds to them? By the standards that you are using, scattering beyond range would also prevent you from allocating wounds. Since you can't allocate wounds to models outside of firing range.

 Idolator wrote:

Chrysis wrote:

 Mannahnin wrote:
The blast rules explcitly allow them to hit and wound models out of LOS. To argue that they do not have permission to allocate wounds on models out of LOS is absurd.

I prefer to call it basic literacy, but you can call it absurd if you like.

To kill a model you need to hit, wound, and allocate an unsaved wound to it.

The Blast rules give you permission to hit and wound, but they do not give you permission to allocate to a model that is out of Line of Sight.

This is to prevent a bad scatter from completely negating a marker because it covers models from the same unit that are out of line of sight. It also prevents you from hoping for a scatter so you can kill a unit that wouldn't have been a valid target in the first place.

This obviously doesn't apply to Barrage, which is completely different to Blast (although always uses a marker) and thus has it's own rules.

So why do the rules point out that you can hit and wound units that are out of sight and out of range if you can't allocate wounds to them? By the standards that you are using, scattering beyond range would also prevent you from allocating wounds. Since you can't allocate wounds to models outside of firing range.

Because you can allocate those wounds to models in the unit you can see/are in range. It's a way of making blast markers still usable without turning them into barrage weapons. It's to allow you to use the marker if it hits models in a unit you can target, but to prevent you from using it to try and hit units you aren't allowed to target.

Idolator wrote:So why do the rules point out that you can hit and wound units that are out of sight and out of range if you can't allocate wounds to them? By the standards that you are using, scattering beyond range would also prevent you from allocating wounds. Since you can't allocate wounds to models outside of firing range.

Because you may have hit models in your initial target unit, so you can still allocate wounds - because the wounds come from the front of the unit from yoru perspective, not anywhere else

Mann - it isnt absurd, very good reasons for the inclusion of that statement have been given, and you are lacking basic permission to allocate to models out of LOS. This was one of the first long arguments in 6th edition, and despite a number of FAQs no answer is forthcoming from GW. As such I am not going to treat a blast any different from any other weapon - unless it states otherwise, you follow Page 16, out of Sight

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Idolator wrote:So why do the rules point out that you can hit and wound units that are out of sight and out of range if you can't allocate wounds to them? By the standards that you are using, scattering beyond range would also prevent you from allocating wounds. Since you can't allocate wounds to models outside of firing range.

Because you may have hit models in your initial target unit, so you can still allocate wounds - because the wounds come from the front of the unit from yoru perspective, not anywhere else

Mann - it isnt absurd, very good reasons for the inclusion of that statement have been given, and you are lacking basic permission to allocate to models out of LOS. This was one of the first long arguments in 6th edition, and despite a number of FAQs no answer is forthcoming from GW. As such I am not going to treat a blast any different from any other weapon - unless it states otherwise, you follow Page 16, out of Sight

Agreed. And is it wrong that I feel vindicated? :-x

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Idolator wrote:So why do the rules point out that you can hit and wound units that are out of sight and out of range if you can't allocate wounds to them? By the standards that you are using, scattering beyond range would also prevent you from allocating wounds. Since you can't allocate wounds to models outside of firing range.

Because you may have hit models in your initial target unit, so you can still allocate wounds - because the wounds come from the front of the unit from yoru perspective, not anywhere else

Mann - it isnt absurd, very good reasons for the inclusion of that statement have been given, and you are lacking basic permission to allocate to models out of LOS. This was one of the first long arguments in 6th edition, and despite a number of FAQs no answer is forthcoming from GW. As such I am not going to treat a blast any different from any other weapon - unless it states otherwise, you follow Page 16, out of Sight

So, if I hit a unit that I didn't target that is out of LoS, I then allocate the wounds onto the unit that I was targeting?

What are the rules for allocating blast wounds onto a unit locked in combat...You can't as you cannot shoot units locked in combat.

If you say that you can hit and wound a unit locked in combat, what if the placement of the models in combat prevent you from seeing one of the units in the combat. i.e. Your 50 man blob squad of conscripts has a solid wall of troops locked in combat with my kommandos. Preventing my Boom gun from being able to see the commandos. The blast template scatters onto the fray hitting 7 conscripts and my 2 remaining comandos. Since the commandos cant be seen, they get off scott free.

 Idolator wrote:
So, if I hit a unit that I didn't target that is out of LoS, I then allocate the wounds onto the unit that I was targeting?

Why would you?

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Idolator wrote:
So, if I hit a unit that I didn't target that is out of LoS, I then allocate the wounds onto the unit that I was targeting?

Why would you?

That was his argument for the rule, to allow me to allocate wounds to the targeted unit. From a unit that wasn't the target.

My question was "Why do the rules state that a blast can hit and wound units that are out of LoS and out of range if you cannot allocate the wounds generated?"

His answer was: so you can allocate them to the targeted unit.

Template and marker weapons are area of effect weapons. If you follow the rules for targeting the models that are hit can indeed be wounded and removed.

They operate differently from other weapons. A lasgun has to be fired at something that can be seen. 40 lasgun shots can indeed cause 20 wounds on the two guys in a 10 man unit, because they were all aiming at the only two guys that they can see! The blast template hits whomever happens to be there when the round explodes. Not just the models that can be seen.

Idolator wrote:

So, if I hit a unit that I didn't target that is out of LoS, I then allocate the wounds onto the unit that I was targeting?

No, why would you? I was explaining the purpose of the rule - it doesnt allow you to injure a unit you couldnt otherwise hit legally. For example it stops you placing a plasma cannon on the edge of a tank to catch the unit entirely out of LOS behind it, or hoping for a helpful scatter onto the unit, while still allowing you to wound a unit you were legally allowed to aim at.

Idolator wrote:
What are the rules for allocating blast wounds onto a unit locked in combat...You can't as you cannot shoot units locked in combat.

Incorrect. Specific allowance for scattering blasts. Follow normal LOS rules.....so far, not difficult

Idolator wrote:
If you say that you can hit and wound a unit locked in combat, what if the placement of the models in combat prevent you from seeing one of the units in the combat. i.e. Your 50 man blob squad of conscripts has a solid wall of troops locked in combat with my kommandos. Preventing my Boom gun from being able to see the commandos. The blast template scatters onto the fray hitting 7 conscripts and my 2 remaining comandos. Since the commandos cant be seen, they get off scott free.

Yes, otherwise known as "following the current rules". However given you cannot purposefully aim at a unit in close combat, its not exactly something you are able to do on a regular, consistent basis.

Everone is using the last line in the blast marker rule to try to negate allocating wounds to units that are out of LoS. By quoting it. "Wounds are then allocated on the unit as for a normal shooting attack."

You can't allocate wounds to models that are out of line of sight (even though you can hit them and cause wounds) because it's outside the normal rules for shooting.

If this is the case, then you wouln't be able to allocate wounds on your own units as it's outside the normal rules for shooting.

You wouldn't be able to allocate wounds onto a unit locked in combat as it's outside the normal rules for shooting.

It's in the same sentence, "In these cases, hits are worked out as normal and can hit and wound units out of range and line of sight (or even your own units, or models locked in combat).

If your interpretation is that wounds couldn't be allocated to the units that are out of range or line of sight, then it would also apply to the other units mentioned IN THE SAME SENTENCE!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Idolator wrote:
If you say that you can hit and wound a unit locked in combat, what if the placement of the models in combat prevent you from seeing one of the units in the combat. i.e. Your 50 man blob squad of conscripts has a solid wall of troops locked in combat with my kommandos. Preventing my Boom gun from being able to see the commandos. The blast template scatters onto the fray hitting 7 conscripts and my 2 remaining comandos. Since the commandos cant be seen, they get off scott free.

Yes, otherwise known as "following the current rules". However given you cannot purposefully aim at a unit in close combat, its not exactly something you are able to do on a regular, consistent basis.