Air Power at its finest

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**Martel732**

Formosa wrote:
Ok the dakkajet is.fairly costed, this is due.to its av10, the stormraven is also fairly costed due to its av12 free mm, assault cannon/lascannon etc. Plus its transport capacity, the vendetta has av12, 3 twin-linked lascannons and a transport capacity, based on loadout alone it's base cost shout be 150pts, add in av12, flyer and a transport capacity and the ability to squadron, it should cost "base" 200pts.

Now if we drop it to av10, I have no problem with it being 160pts, av11 and I again have no issue with it being 180pts.

What does everyone else think?

You'r gonna get the haterade for pointing it at 200. I can see the argument, though, because in practice, they are sometimes *better* than stormravens on a one for one basis because they have three AP 2 shots. That never run out of ammo. Frankly, after the blood strike missile are gone, the stormraven kinda sucks.

**Kasrkin229**

People Generally don't like Adapting , something thats a consistant pain in the ass for me at least is when some bastard will bring 4 Land Raiders all packed with Hammernators -- the Way i adapted was taking 17 Plasma Guns in my army along with 3 Mobile Lascannon platforms

**Martel732**

Kasrkin229 wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
The BA players at my local store who don't use the stormraven at all have better records than the ones that do except me. I'm the only one sniffing .500 that uses the damn thing. None of us have winning records.

I think some of it is that people use it as an Addition to their list , The don't Build their List Around it which is what i think is the issue , you have to build things to work together

The BA don't have the body count to do this. If you are bringing the thing in any capacity other than a gunship, you are building around it. Even then, it sucks up more points than I would like.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kasrkin229 wrote:
People Generally don't like Adapting , something thats a consistant pain in the ass for me at least is when some bastard will bring 4 Land Raiders all packed with Hammernators -- the Way i adapted was taking 17 Plasma Guns in my army along with 3 Mobile Lascannon platforms

Funny thing is that those Vendetta can kill the LR, but the LR can't really kill them back. Especially with points ratio of 2:1.

**Formosa**

Martel732 wrote:
Formosa wrote:
Ok the dakkajet is.fairly costed, this is due.to its av10, the stormraven is also fairly costed due to its av12 free mm, assault cannon/lascannon etc. Plus its transport capacity, the vendetta has av12, 3 twin-linked lascannons and a transport capacity, based on loadout alone it's base cost shout be 150pts, add in av12, flyer and a transport capacity and the ability to squadron, it should cost "base" 200pts.

Now if we drop it to av10, I have no problem with it being 160pts, av11 and I again have no issue with it being 180pts.

What does everyone else think?

You'r gonna get the haterade for pointing it at 200. I can see the argument, though, because in practice, they are sometimes *better* than stormravens on a one for one basis because they have three AP 2 shots. That never run out of ammo. Frankly, after the blood strike missile are gone, the stormraven kinda sucks.

Yeah I know lol, I agree on the stormraven not being that good once the missiles are gone, another thing I feel is, why does the
Vendetta and valk even have av12? I know it's written for a previous edition, but even back then it made me wonder?

**phatonic**

rigth now with that faq about imperial armor being allowed into normal games. What do you guys think about the tau baracuda? and the other flyers Ig got.

**Kasrkin229**

It was Built as a Ground Support VTOL in order to deploy troops into the thick of battle , might ask Why does a land Raider have 14 Armor all around ? Landraiders seemed totally OP when you couldn't glance them to death ----------- Valk and Vendettas are modifyed with Extra armor ( in IG codex ) when supporting ground troops for extended durations , this being asssumed with attached to an army

**phatonic**

Kasrkin229 wrote:
It was Built as a Ground Support VTOL in order to deploy troops into the thick of battle , might ask Why does a land Raider have 14 Armor all around ? Landraiders seemed totally OP when you couldn't glance them to death ----------- Valk and Vendettas are modifyed with Extra armor ( in IG codex ) when supporting ground troops for extended durations , this being asssumed with attached to an army

cuzz spess mareeeens gotta transport their expensive termies!

**Kasrkin229**

Then my Answer to the Vendetta --- BEcause us Guard have to absolutly troll the gak our of your SPace Marine tanks

**phatonic**

Kasrkin229 wrote:
Then my Answer to the Vendetta --- BEcause us Guard have to absolutly troll the gak our of your SPace Marine tanks

i know right holding that vet squad untill round 5 and place them on a objective there is no greater way to make the other player angry

**Kasrkin229**

Oh of everyone i think the IG has the most awesome ways to troll the gak out of people lol

**phatonic**

Kasrkin229 wrote:
Oh of everyone i think the IG has the most awesome ways to troll the gak out of people lol

zogg off my old zogwort be making flyrants into squigs and so he made commissar yorick once too ahh we had god fun dat day...well i did.. the ig player seemed abit sad.

**Formosa**

Dont get me wrong I have no real issue with the valk/vendetta, I know it's a t throwback, even when it came out it was amazingly cheap, with the massive buff based on the flyer rules it does need a sharp point increase, also ( cynical mode) now that every man and his dog owns at least one vendetta... Gw will make them 3 normal las shots av10 and 250pts each lol

**phatonic**

Formosa wrote:
Dont get me wrong I have no real issue with the valk/vendetta, I know it's a t throwback, even when it came out it was amazingly cheap, with the massive buff based on the flyer rules it does need a sharp point increase, also ( cynical mode) now that every man and his dog owns at least one vendetta... Gw will make them 3 normal las shots av10 and 250pts each lol

av 10 ? my quad gun wont be needed anymore! i'll just add even more lootas!

**DAaddict**

A dakkajet generates 9 S6 shots assuming 7 hit, we are talking a big average of 1.17 glances... The vendetta is going to generate 2.25 glances or penetrating hits every turn. The dakkajet costs 130 and has AV 10. Now tell me again why a vendetta is properly costed?

Now IF the vendetta shows its rear sure a dakkajet can be lethal but I wouldn't count on it knocking down a vendetta.

**Zathras**

Formosa wrote:
Dont get me wrong I have no real issue with the valk/vendetta, I know it's a t throwback, even when it came out it was amazingly cheap, with the massive buff based on the flyer rules it does need a sharp point increase, also ( cynical mode) now that every man and his dog owns at least one vendetta... Gw will make them 3 normal las shots av10 and 250pts each lol

Ummm, I don't own a single Vendetta.....I do own 2 completed Night/Doomscythes and 2 still to be built.

**phatonic**

DAaddict wrote:
A dakkajet generates 9 S6 shots assuming 7 hit, we are talking a big average of 1.17 glances... The vendetta is going to generate 2.25 glances or penetrating hits every turn. The dakkajet costs 130 and has AV 10. Now tell me again why a vendetta is properly costed?

Now IF the vendetta shows its rear sure a dakkajet can be lethal but I wouldn't count on it knocking down a vendetta.

now, add 20-30 lootas in the back + another dakkajet and its a waagh.

yes...... i like running shooty orks...

dont look at me like that!

**Martel732**

phatonic wrote:
DAaddict wrote:
A dakkajet generates 9 S6 shots assuming 7 hit, we are talking a big average of 1.17 glances... The vendetta is going to generate 2.25 glances or penetrating hits every turn. The dakkajet costs 130 and has AV 10. Now tell me again why a vendetta is properly costed?

Now IF the vendetta shows its rear sure a dakkajet can be lethal but I wouldn't count on it knocking down a vendetta.

now, add 20-30 lootas in the back + another dakkajet and its a waagh.

yes...... i like running shooty orks...

dont look at me like that!

But that can't be added into the direct comparison between the two units.

**phatonic**

Martel732 wrote:
phatonic wrote:
DAaddict wrote:
A dakkajet generates 9 S6 shots assuming 7 hit, we are talking a big average of 1.17 glances... The vendetta is going to generate 2.25 glances or penetrating hits every turn. The dakkajet costs 130 and has AV 10. Now tell me again why a vendetta is properly costed?

Now IF the vendetta shows its rear sure a dakkajet can be lethal but I wouldn't count on it knocking down a vendetta.

now, add 20-30 lootas in the back + another dakkajet and its a waagh.

yes...... i like running shooty orks...

dont look at me like that!

But that can't be added into the direct comparison between the two units.

true that, but mostly the turn you get your jets inn that be the turn of the waagh with 18 shots. unless you are unlucky and only get one inn, they rarly do good allone!

**Formosa**

Zathras wrote:
Formosa wrote:
Dont get me wrong I have no real issue with the valk/vendetta, I know it's a t throwback, even when it came out it was amazingly cheap, with the massive buff based on the flyer rules it does need a sharp point increase, also ( cynical mode) now that every man and his dog owns at least one vendetta... Gw will make them 3 normal las shots av10 and 250pts each lol

Ummm, I don't own a single Vendetta.....I do own 2 completed Night/Doomscythes and 2 still to be built.

Fair enough, but you get my point

**CaptainGrey**

Formosa wrote:
Dont get me wrong I have no real issue with the valk/vendetta, I know it's a t throwback, even when it came out it was amazingly cheap, with the massive buff based on the flyer rules it does need a sharp point increase, also ( cynical mode) now that every man and his dog owns at least one vendetta... Gw will make them 3 normal las shots av10 and 250pts each lol

I can't even begin to assess if this is serious or not.

**AlmightyWalrus**

Kasrkin229 wrote:
DAaddict wrote:
Alright the big fear of the stormraven is you load it up with tough troops and a dreadnought... So lets say you take a stormraven, a venerable dread and a unit of GK terminators... We are now talking 500 to 600 points. Sure it is awesome... Now here comes the guard with a unit of plasma vets in a vendetta make that 2 or 3 for the same cost. Cry me a river about how awesome a stormraven is but I will take 9 TL lascannons and 30 guardsmen over that one awesome flyer (that should get shot down with 6 to 9 TL Lascannons blasting at it).

Vendettas don't even put pressure on your slots as you can take 3 of them and only use one slot in a FOC.

Contary to that last part , 3 Vendettas Squadrened is a HORRIBLE waste of firepower why would i throw 9 shots on one unit when i could throw those nine shots at 3 different units , so that point isn't exactly good , the only proven effective use of Veterans in a Vendetta is only truely scary when you give them triple melta's furthermore when you do so not only but your sacraficing a troop choice and in the Unlikly event it gets shot down its going to kill all the men inside most likley

This post makes no sense at all. Firstly, IG cares about Troops slots since when? Secondly, yes, you might lose your cheap-as-chips Veteran squad if your Vendetta goes down; guess what happens to Blood Angels in a Stormeaven that gets shot down? Thirdly, if you think meltavets are the only way to run vets in a Vendetta I pity you.

**Formosa**

CaptainGrey wrote:
Formosa wrote:
Dont get me wrong I have no real issue with the valk/vendetta, I know it's a t throwback, even when it came out it was amazingly cheap, with the massive buff based on the flyer rules it does need a sharp point increase, also ( cynical mode) now that every man and his dog owns at least one vendetta... Gw will make them 3 normal las shots av10 and 250pts each lol

I can't even begin to assess if this is serious or not.

The last part isn't no lol, I was commenting on the fact that gw loves to nerf a unit that everyone owns, gets them to buy new models

**zephoid**

Largely the same armor as the stormraven, 3x TL lascannons give it more firepower than the stormraven, same transport cap, same drop rules, and still has hover mode too. So it has everything the stormraven has except POTMS and assault transport (hah) but gains much more firepower for 1/3 less points. Yup, not OP at all.

PS, extra armor is HUGE since you can force a flier to crash if it cant land 18" in front of itself (see YMDC).

**Kasrkin229**

I never said it was the only way to run them , just one of the most common , you of course have you last minute objective snatches , But I personally don't find flyers to be balanced but I think people need to learn how to adapt with the times

**AlmightyWalrus**

Kasrkin229 wrote:
I never said it was the only way to run them , just one of the most common , you of course have you last minute objective snatches , But I personally don't find flyers to be balanced but I think people need to learn how to adapt with the times

Pray tell, as Black Templars, how does one "adapt with the times" without allying in Vendettas? A Quadgun isn't enough. Brushing off complaints against one of the best units in the game with a more eloquent version of "lol l2p" isn't exactly the best way to get people to agree with you.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kasrkin229 wrote:
I never said it was the only way to run them , just one of the most common , you of course have you last minute objective snatches , But I personally don't find flyers to be balanced but I think people need to learn how to adapt with the times

Pray tell, as Black Templars, how does one "adapt with the times" without allying in Vendettas? A Quadgun isn't enough. Brushing off complaints against one of the best units in the game with a more eloquent version of "lol l2p" isn't exactly the best way to get people to agree with you.

**DAaddict**

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Kasrkin229 wrote:
DAaddict wrote:
Alright the big fear of the stormraven is you load it up with tough troops and a dreadnought... So lets say you take a stormraven, a venerable dread and a unit of GK terminators... We are now talking 500 to 600 points. Sure it is awesome... Now here comes the guard with a unit of plasma vets in a vendetta make that 2 or 3 for the same cost. Cry me a river about how awesome a stormraven is but I will take 9 TL lascannons and 30 guardsmen over that one awesome flyer (that should get shot down with 6 to 9 TL Lascannons blasting at it).

Vendettas don't even put pressure on your slots as you can take 3 of them and only use one slot in a FOC.

Contary to that last part , 3 Vendettas Squadrened is a HORRIBLE waste of firepower why would i throw 9 shots on one unit when i could throw those nine shots at 3 different units , so that point isn't exactly good , the only proven effective use of Veterans in a Vendetta is only truely scary when you give them triple melta's furthermore when you do so not only but your sacraficing a troop choice and in the Unlikly event it gets shot down its going to kill all the men inside most likley

This post makes no sense at all. Firstly, IG cares about Troops slots since when? Secondly, yes, you might lose your cheap-as-chips Veteran squad if your Vendetta goes down; guess what happens to Blood Angels in a Stormeaven that gets shot down? Thirdly, if you think meltavets are the only way to run vets in a Vendetta I pity you.

As a SM, GK, DW player, I fear the plasma vets worse. It is 3+ dead terminators. Anti-vehicle is less important in 6th so while meltas have their place, 24" range and rapid fire is a lot more scary.

**Martel732**

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Kasrkin229 wrote:
I never said it was the only way to run them , just one of the most common , you of course have you last minute objective snatches , But I personally don't find flyers to be balanced but I think people need to learn how to adapt with the times

Pray tell, as Black Templars, how does one "adapt with the times" without allying in Vendettas? A Quadgun isn't enough. Brushing off complaints against one of the best units in the game with a more eloquent version of "lol l2p" isn't exactly the best way to get people to agree with you.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kasrkin229 wrote:
I never said it was the only way to run them , just one of the most common , you of course have you last minute objective snatches , But I personally don't find flyers to be balanced but I think people need to learn how to adapt with the times

Pray tell, as Black Templars, how does one "adapt with the times" without allying in Vendettas? A Quadgun isn't enough. Brushing off complaints against one of the best units in the game with a more eloquent version of "lol l2p" isn't exactly the best way to get people to agree with you.

Black Templars... a lot like the BA in terms of nerfs, but no Stormravens. Ouch indeed.

**captain collius**

Martel732 wrote:
AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Kasrkin229 wrote:
I never said it was the only way to run them , just one of the most common , you of course have you last minute objective snatches , But I personally don't find flyers to be balanced but I think people need to learn how to adapt with the times

Pray tell, as Black Templars, how does one "adapt with the times" without allying in Vendettas? A Quadgun isn't enough. Brushing off complaints against one of the best units in the game with a more eloquent version of "lol l2p" isn't exactly the best way to get people to agree with you.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kasrkin229 wrote:
I never said it was the only way to run them , just one of the most common , you of course have you last minute objective snatches , But I personally don't find flyers to be balanced but I think people need to learn how to adapt with the times

Pray tell, as Black Templars, how does one "adapt with the times" without allying in Vendettas? A Quadgun isn't enough. Brushing off complaints against one of the best units in the game with a more eloquent version of "lol l2p" isn't exactly the best way to get people to agree with you.

Black Templars... a lot like the BA in terms of nerfs, but no Stormravens. Ouch indeed.

Wait a month then they will be in the boat with the BA's only marginally ahead based on FNP bubbles and DOA