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Canterbury

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leicestershire-21063882


A skeleton found beneath a Leicester car park has been confirmed as that of English king Richard III.

Experts from the University of Leicester said DNA from the bones matched that of descendants of the monarch's family.

Lead archaeologist Richard Buckley, from the University of Leicester, told a press conference to applause: "Beyond reasonable doubt it's Richard."

Richard, who died in battle 1485, will be reinterred in Leicester Cathedral.

Continue reading the main story

Interactive: Twisted bones reveal a king
His skeleton had suffered 10 injuries, including eight to the skull.

The bones, which are of a man in his late 20s or early 30s, have been carbon dated to a period from 1455-1540.

Richard was 32 when he died at the Battle of Bosworth in 1485.

Details of the reburial ceremony have yet to be


What is really interesting is that now we "know" this to be him, we can see if the bodies of the 2 princes match up DNAwise as well.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Princes_in_the_Tower

The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
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"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king,
 
   
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So lemme get this straight... King Eddy the 5th karks it, at which point his broski, the goodly Duke Richo the 3rd, staches his nephews in the clink and swipes the throne for himself in a rather clever coup only to balls it all up by bum rushing Henry Tudor and his personal guard at Bosworth? (If that ain't perfect BBC drama material then i don't know what is. This should get at least 4 seasons.)

And we now know that the bones buried in yon park his and he was apparently beaten stupid shortly before his death?

That about sum it up?

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There's no actual proof Richard III killed his nephews, they easily could have died of illness and were quietly buried. Although Occam's Razor typically applies, there is still the realm of possibility that for unknown reasons the children simply fell of the pages of histor without malice aforethought.


And also time travel.

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 AustonT wrote:
There's no actual proof Richard III killed his nephews, they easily could have died of illness and were quietly buried. Although Occam's Razor typically applies, there is still the realm of possibility that for unknown reasons the children simply fell of the pages of histor without malice aforethought.


And also time travel.


If Star Trek has taught me anything, its that one should never rule out time travel

I at first thought that the article was about Richard the Lionheart only to learn that was Richard the First (I always thought of him as third because of the third crusade). So I learned something today.

   
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 Snrub wrote:
So lemme get this straight... King Eddy the 5th karks it, at which point his broski, the goodly Duke Richo the 3rd, staches his nephews in the clink and swipes the throne for himself in a rather clever coup only to balls it all up by bum rushing Henry Tudor and his personal guard at Bosworth? (If that ain't perfect BBC drama material then i don't know what is. This should get at least 4 seasons.)

And we now know that the bones buried in yon park his and he was apparently beaten stupid shortly before his death?

That about sum it up?


Edward the IV (Richard's brother) was king until his death. Edward V (Richard's newphew) would have been king (Richard as Lord protector until that day) until the mystery in the tower. Was Richard innocent? Now that we have his skull, perhaps a necromancer could find out!

I may be wrong but Richard would probably have won Bosworth if the Earl/Duke Stanley? Hadn't switched sides.

Buy yeah, BBC should get their finger out and make a series about it. Wait, they already are

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/02/04 14:30:53


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It's quite exciting that the team behind this was successful in finding the Greyfriars site and the descendant. Typically, at least when these efforts are turned into documentaries, they seem to be fruitless. I wonder if this success will help the revisionist cause of RIII Society.

   
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Pretty cool stuff. More money to the archaeologists!
   
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Snrub wrote:So lemme get this straight... King Eddy the 5th karks it, at which point his broski, the goodly Duke Richo the 3rd, staches his nephews in the clink and swipes the throne for himself in a rather clever coup only to balls it all up by bum rushing Henry Tudor and his personal guard at Bosworth? (If that ain't perfect BBC drama material then i don't know what is. This should get at least 4 seasons.)

And we now know that the bones buried in yon park his and he was apparently beaten stupid shortly before his death?

That about sum it up?

I don't know. I'm not even certain what you just said.
   
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West Sussex, UK

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
 Snrub wrote:
So lemme get this straight... King Eddy the 5th karks it, at which point his broski, the goodly Duke Richo the 3rd, staches his nephews in the clink and swipes the throne for himself in a rather clever coup only to balls it all up by bum rushing Henry Tudor and his personal guard at Bosworth? (If that ain't perfect BBC drama material then i don't know what is. This should get at least 4 seasons.)

And we now know that the bones buried in yon park his and he was apparently beaten stupid shortly before his death?

That about sum it up?


Edward the IV (Richard's brother) was king until his death. Edward V (Richard's newphew) would have been king (Richard as Lord protector until that day) until the mystery in the tower. Was Richard innocent? Now that we have his skull, perhaps a necromancer could find out!

I may be wrong but Richard would probably have won Bosworth if the Earl/Duke Stanley? Hadn't switched sides.

Buy yeah, BBC should get their finger out and make a series about it. Wait, they already are


Nah he could of won even if Stanley hadn't changed sides, what lost it for him was Northumberland on his flank refusing to join the fight. Then he saw Henry separated from the rest of his army, made a reckless charge and was killed. He may of lost the battle, and he did have the option to retreat, but he went for it anyway, say what you want about the man, at least he was brave.

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Adrift within the vortex of my imagination.

Richard III usually dies of plague in York before anyone can get to him.

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So, who's for throwing these illegitimate Hanoverian... uh... 'Windsors' out on their ears and crowning Michael Ibsen king? Who's with me?

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/richard-iiis-remains-found-council-car-park-104153573.html

Actually, since I'm in America and you guys are already over there, I'll send you a hundred bucks or so to buy small arms and you can shed your blood and let me know how it all works out.

Remember to remind King Michael that I thought of this idea, so I get to be Lord Chancellor, or something.

Also, I guess we know Dick 3 wasn't an incarnation of the Emperor, and, as he was deformed, he might have been a Chaos creature.

Which means Henry Tudor might have been the Emperor.

That's kind of creepy.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Orlanth wrote:
Richard III usually dies of plague in York before anyone can get to him.


I've had Richard of Gloucester crowned a couple of times. He's such a low level heir, that the trick is to hold onto him in a castle with a minor noble, and wait until the high level Yorkists and Lancastrians kill each other off.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/02/04 21:51:00


   
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This is pretty cool, but I have a question. What gave them the suspicion that this could be Richard III? I mean they didn't just randomly start digging in a parking lot. And how did they know to dig exactly here? Was there a ruined church that used to be on the parking lot or something?

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They found the bones and did a DNA test with a distant still living relative to determine mitochondrial something or others I think.

   
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Everett, WA

 Orlanth wrote:
Richard III usually dies of plague in York before anyone can get to him.
Usually?

 
   
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 LordofHats wrote:
They found the bones and did a DNA test with a distant still living relative to determine mitochondrial something or others I think.


But they probably weren't just digging up every council car park, and DNA testing every corpse they found under each of them. Something must have made them thought this was the place to look for Richard III.

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Spitsbergen

 LordofHats wrote:
They found the bones and did a DNA test with a distant still living relative to determine mitochondrial something or others I think.


I always get midichlorians and mitochondria mixed up. When set in this context I find myself thinking of a zombie jedi RIII, King of the British Galactic Empire. Awesome.
   
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Canterbury

 generalgrog wrote:
Was there a ruined church that used to be on the parking lot or something?

GG


Exactly.


He was given a hurried burial beneath the church of Greyfriars in the centre of Leicester.....
...Greyfriars church was demolished during the Reformation in the 16th Century and over the following centuries its exact location was forgotten.

However, a team of enthusiasts and historians managed to trace the likely area - and, crucially, after painstaking genealogical research, they found a 17th-generation descendant of Richard's sister with whose DNA they could compare any remains.

Joy Ibsen, from Canada, died several years ago but her son, Michael, who now works in London, provided a sample.

The researchers were fortunate as, while the DNA they were looking for was in all Joy Ibsen's offspring, it is only handed down through the female line and her only daughter has no children. The line was about to stop.

Tomb plans
But the University of Leicester's experts had other problems.

Dr Turi King, project geneticist, said there had been concern DNA in the bones would be too degraded: "The question was could we get a sample of DNA to work with, and I am extremely pleased to tell you that we could."

She added: "There is a DNA match between the maternal DNA of the descendants of the family of Richard III and the skeletal remains we found at the Greyfriars dig.

"In short, the DNA evidence points to these being the remains of Richard III."

In August 2012, an excavation began in a city council car park - the only open space remaining in the likely area - which quickly identified buildings connected to the church.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leicestershire-21063882

The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king,
 
   
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The Void

This is pretty cool.

Still have to work to beat out the Texans though. A NUMA archeology team found the Texas Steamship of War Zavala under a grainery's parking lot.

Apparently other things found under parking lots that really shouldn't be there include the Canadian Parliament (the ruins of the one that got torched by an angry mob in 1849), Henry VIII's Private Chapel and The Palace of Queen Helena of Adiabene in Jerusalem.

Note to developers, maybe have a poke around before you start paving eh?

I beg of you sarge let me lead the charge when the battle lines are drawn
Lemme at least leave a good hoof beat they'll remember loud and long


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Canterbury


Note to developers, maybe have a poke around before you start paving eh?


Quite.

When we revamped the town centre afew ... it was that long ago ?! --- err... several years back there special effort made to try and conserve and investigate what they could.


http://www.whitefriars-canterbury.co.uk/about-whitefriars/?PageID=11

It was great to see it all unfold. There was extra interest as "Time Team" came down and did some filming too.

Had a couple of pints with Tony Robinson et al

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/02/05 10:47:41


The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king,
 
   
Made in us
Hallowed Canoness





The Void

Wow that's really cool! We don't really have that problem here out west in the US. We haven't been developed long enough in most places to have really gotten too built up. There are notable examples in places like Portland and Seattle though including underground cities in some places.

I beg of you sarge let me lead the charge when the battle lines are drawn
Lemme at least leave a good hoof beat they'll remember loud and long


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Leerstetten, Germany

I don't know if we are finding lots of dead royals in our parking lots in Germany, but it seems that every time we are digging somewhere we find left over bombs.
   
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Canterbury

 d-usa wrote:
but it seems that every time we are digging somewhere we find left over bombs.


Semi regular occurrence in London and our cities, we also get a few mines washed up on the beaches and the like.

I guess USA archaeology is in kind of an odd place as the answer to "who built this..?" is going to be " My great great grandfather." .. which.. well... lacks a certain romance in some regards.

That said I believe there's quite a wealth of native american history to be explored like


http://discovermagazine.com/2004/feb/uncovering-americas-pyramid-builders#.URDjxR1LMwo


but I gather especially when it comes to things like burial sites this is something of a delicate issue..?


The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king,
 
   
Made in us
Hallowed Canoness





The Void

Depends on the heritage of the site and if that particular tribe is still in existence, that type of thing. Me personally I understand where the tribes are coming from on that score. I'd be pretty livid if they started exhuming graves in Arlington just to have a look see.

I beg of you sarge let me lead the charge when the battle lines are drawn
Lemme at least leave a good hoof beat they'll remember loud and long


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 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
Depends on the heritage of the site and if that particular tribe is still in existence, that type of thing. Me personally I understand where the tribes are coming from on that score. I'd be pretty livid if they started exhuming graves in Arlington just to have a look see.


Didn't something like that happen in the civil war? I'm sure I read somewhere that the Union guy who ran Arlington blew up Robert Lee's country residence and dug up his dead relative who were buried there! I may be wrong...

Anyway, back OT.

There's been a lot of talk about Richard being the rightful king, but if you look at the history:

Richard II (rightful king)
Henry IV (usurper)
Henry V
Henry VI
Edward IV (usurper)
Richard III
Henry VII (usurper)

Then anybody with 10,000 men could have grabbed the throne of England. Richard's luck ran out.

"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd 
   
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The Void

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
 KalashnikovMarine wrote:
Depends on the heritage of the site and if that particular tribe is still in existence, that type of thing. Me personally I understand where the tribes are coming from on that score. I'd be pretty livid if they started exhuming graves in Arlington just to have a look see.


Didn't something like that happen in the civil war? I'm sure I read somewhere that the Union guy who ran Arlington blew up Robert Lee's country residence and dug up his dead relative who were buried there! I may be wrong...


Not quite. The entire set up was a direct slap in the face to Lee but the mansion is still on site (and quite lovely to look at)

Here's a brief history from Arlington's website:

The property was confiscated by the federal government when property taxes levied against Arlington estate were not paid in person by Mrs. Lee. The property was offered for public sale Jan. 11, 1864, and was purchased by a tax commissioner for "government use, for war, military, charitable and educational purposes."

Arlington National Cemetery was established by Brig. Gen. Montgomery C. Meigs, who commanded the garrison at Arlington House, appropriated the grounds June 15, 1864, for use as a military cemetery. His intention was to render the house uninhabitable should the Lee family ever attempt to return. A stone and masonry burial vault in the rose garden, 20 feet wide and 10 feet deep, and containing the remains of 1,800 Bull Run casualties, was among the first monuments to Union dead erected under Meigs' orders. Meigs himself was later buried within 100 yards of Arlington House with his wife, father and son; the final statement to his original order.

The federal government dedicated a model community for freed slaves, Freedman's Village, near the current Memorial Amphitheater, on Dec. 4, 1863. More than 1,100 freed slaves were given land by the government, where they farmed and lived during and after the Civil War.

Neither Robert E. Lee, nor his wife, as title holder, ever attempted to publicly recover control of Arlington House. They were buried at Washington University (later renamed Washington and Lee University) where Lee had served as president. The couple never returned to the home George Washington Parke Custis had built and treasured. After Gen. Lee's death in 1870, George Washington Custis Lee brought an action for ejectment in the Circuit Court of Alexandria (today Arlington) County, Va. Custis Lee, as eldest son of Gen. and Mrs. Lee, claimed that the land had been illegally confiscated and that, according to his grandfather's will, he was the legal owner. In December 1882, the U.S. Supreme Court, in a 5-4 decision, returned the property to Custis Lee, stating that it had been confiscated without due process On March 3, 1883, Congress purchased the property from Lee for $150,000. It became a military reservation and Freedman's Village ceased to exist; however, the gravesites that were once part of the village remained on the grounds of the reservation.



I beg of you sarge let me lead the charge when the battle lines are drawn
Lemme at least leave a good hoof beat they'll remember loud and long


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 d-usa wrote:
I don't know if we are finding lots of dead royals in our parking lots in Germany, but it seems that every time we are digging somewhere we find left over bombs.

Can we have them back please? We need to make defence savings...

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I find myself agreeing with Albatross far too often these days...

I almost always agree with Albatross, I can't see why anyone wouldn't.


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 Snrub wrote:
So lemme get this straight... King Eddy the 5th karks it, at which point his broski, the goodly Duke Richo the 3rd, staches his nephews in the clink and swipes the throne for himself in a rather clever coup only to balls it all up by bum rushing Henry Tudor and his personal guard at Bosworth? (If that ain't perfect BBC drama material then i don't know what is. This should get at least 4 seasons.)


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Black_Adder

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/02/05 13:43:28


 insaniak wrote:
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And sometimes, it's just a case of too much scotch combined with too many buttons...
 
   
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Steve steveson wrote:
 Snrub wrote:
So lemme get this straight... King Eddy the 5th karks it, at which point his broski, the goodly Duke Richo the 3rd, staches his nephews in the clink and swipes the throne for himself in a rather clever coup only to balls it all up by bum rushing Henry Tudor and his personal guard at Bosworth? (If that ain't perfect BBC drama material then i don't know what is. This should get at least 4 seasons.)


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Black_Adder


+1

Speaking of TV that really needs to come back...

I beg of you sarge let me lead the charge when the battle lines are drawn
Lemme at least leave a good hoof beat they'll remember loud and long


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If richard III died in a car I wonder how much money he would owe to the council?

 
   
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A small, damp hole somewhere in England


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