How close is the IOM to collapse?

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**Ratius**

This is a very interesting fluff. Could you give me a source to it?

5th edition Nid Codex - small little boxed section on the Narhval

Tyranid Hive Fleets do not travel through the Warp like Imperial starships. Yet, the Hive Fleets' incredibly fast rate of advance into the galaxy belies the argument made by some that they do not possess a mode of faster-than-light travel. Whilst it is true that the Tyranids are forced to remain at sublight speeds while within the gravitic boundaries of a planetary system, they are capable of superluminal velocities when travelling through interstellar space. This capability is the result of a small Tyranid bio-ship classified by the savants of the Imperium of Man as a Narvhal. Unlike most Tyranid bio-ships, the Narvhal is almost completely defenceless, and possesses almost no bio-weaponry and only a very thin protective carapace. A cluster of monofilament spines on the Narvhal's bow allow it to take in a wide variety of sensory input, including a broad spectrum of gravimetric and electromagnetic signals. Using these sensors, the Narvhal can detect new planetary systems at extreme interstellar distances. In some unknown manner it then makes use of the origin star system's own gravity and creates a compressed space-time transit corridor through which the Narvhal and other Tyranid bio-ships can traverse interstellar distances. This form of space-warping travel cannot be used near strong gravitational sources as they overwhelm the Narvhal's hypersensitive navigational sensors. As a result, a Tyranid Hive Fleet must use more conventional forms of biologically-induced reaction-based propulsion during the final approach to a new star system, which can slow their arrival by years or even entire decades. Whist this form of propulsion is ultimately slower than a reliance upon the Warp-Drive, it is a great deal more reliable and allows the Tyranids to move slowly, if implacably, across the galaxy. However, the Narvhal's manipulation of a star system's gravity does sometimes produce unintended side effects. A destination world can suffer from earthquakes, solar flares, tidal waves and other natural disasters produced during the interval during which the Hive Fleet is in transition through the space-time transit corridor. This chaos only further benefits the Tyranids' invasion, however, as the defenders of the target world will have their resources bound up in dealing with these problems when the swarm finally arrives in orbit and the first Mycetic Spores begin to fall.

**MajorStoffer**

Vast empires take equally vast amounts of time to collapse. Rome was "collapsing" for near on a thousand years, so for an empire of a million worlds spread across the stars with enormous industry, manpower and a refined, if often clumsy military doctrine, can endure for a very, very long.

Much like with Rome, it's worth consider that the Imperium's enemies are also enemies amongst themselves; any general collapse or recession of Imperial domains will result in them fighting one another, while the Imperium concentrate forces around its more developed, coreward sectors.

There's also the minor tidbit that if the AdMech felt there was a real risk of the Imperium's, and therefore their own, obliteration, I'm willing to be the higher ups would suddenly find themselves less concerned about their religion; it's a useful tool for control, but when faced with obliteration, they'd likely "rediscover" an awful lot of technology.

I don't think the Imperium will collapse in any concievable time frame; decline, absolutely, fragment, quite possibly, but the nature of the galaxy means that the vacuum of Imperial decline means conflict will quickly emerge amongst the victors. It's not like Orks, Chaos, Eldar, Tyranidsand necrons can or will work together to beat the Imperium, which is individually stronger than any of them in present terms.

**Beaviz81**

Rome collapsed over maybe 200 years. Not a millenia, not even the Byzantine Empire who stood for 1000 years counts all of it as decline. I would say the Crusades is where they really started to decline, but I guess people can argue against that as well.

As for the Eldars they oddly enough need the IOM for protection from the other things. They might regard humans as chimps, but they need the IOM just to survive themselves.

The Orks are too disorganized to defeat the IOM, but if they all went together and stopped the infighting they would overwhelm everyone. But their nature forbids that.

The Tyranids in my regard is more a swarm of locusts that is scary in fluff, but toothless in stuff

As for the Necrons, they are like a man who has suffered a stroke, little to no threat to the IOM. Just a nuisance that conveniently allies with the Blood Angels.

**CuddlySquig**

Beaviz81 wrote:

The Orks are too disorganized to defeat the IOM,

An how many teef iz yoo gonna bet on dat, humie?

**Beaviz81**

CuddlySquig wrote:
Beaviz81 wrote:

The Orks are too disorganized to defeat the IOM,

An how many teef iz yoo gonna bet on dat, humie?

All the teef in da universe tjommi.

**MajorStoffer**

Rome steadily lost territory and relative power from the reign of Diocletian onwards. While Emperors did regain territory and stem the tide at certain points (General Aetius, Emperor Justinian, the Komnenian Dynasty, the early Paleologi), there was a long term, gradual decline from the 3rd century until the Ottomans defeated Trebizond in 1461.

It had moments of power and unstoppable strength, see the Gothic Wars, or Alexius Komnenus manipulating the pope into initiating the crusades (backfired in the long run, but still). Yet it still grew steadily weaker. As Gibbon hypothesized, great men in the Empire could turn the tide, even recover, but the rot, the corruption, the failings of the state ran too deep, and anyone who was not a "Great Man" would preside over a crumbling realm.

Sounds an awful lot like the Imperium of Man, but the scale is different. There's still potential for genuine, long term recovery, but the trend, for now, is a very slow creeping, lingering death. The Astronomicon presents a unique variable, for if it were to fail, the Imperium would fragment quite abruptly, but even Imperial sectors enjoy more power than many of the minor races, and even with greatly reduced warp travel capacity, there would still be areas recognizably Imperial for generations, likely centered around Forge Worlds and Space Marine chapters, kind of like how the Domain of Soisson suvived the fall of rome, centered around an armament manufactory to the east of modern Paris, which ensured that the legions in the region remained well equipped, and they had a valuable enough trade good to keep themselves funded.

Until the Franks sent their entire military capacity against them, that is, which could be a long-term fate of the Imperium; small, scattered realms of comparitvely high levels of developement and power, but they gradually die out as new, larger orgnizations take their place.

**Grey Templar**

We really can't count the Byzantine Empire in the fall of Rome. While they did have a claim to being the true Roman Empire, they ceased to be that in anything but name. They were truly a seperate entity, and it is impressive how long they lasted.

**Hruotland**

The eroding of IOM will happen faster than it happened to Rome. IOM lacks the one feat that had always been, and kept for a long time, one of Rome's biggest strengths. IOM will never, never adapt their technology by learning from xenos (big-scale, that is.) They will also never incorporate xenos into their empire. They will never be able to satisfy the needs of conquerors by giving them a piece of the cake in turn of incorporating them into their strategic arsenal. Yes, that backfired too, again and again, but it nevertheless bought Rome time, and it strenghtened their military apparatus ginormously. The setting of 40k does not allow that. Large scale cooperation is unthinkable for any of the fractions.

**Beaviz81**

Oh they have to cooperate, but to a certain degree. Now the Inquisition and the AdMech is cooping to keep the Ecclesiarchy down. Or at least that's my interpretation of it.

**Grey Templar**

Hruotland wrote:
The eroding of IOM will happen faster than it happened to Rome. IOM lacks the one feat that had always been, and kept for a long time, one of Rome's biggest strengths. IOM will never, never adapt their technology by learning from xenos (big-scale, that is.) They will also never incorporate xenos into their empire. They will never be able to satisfy the needs of conquerors by giving them a piece of the cake in turn of incorporating them into their strategic arsenal. Yes, that backfired too, again and again, but it nevertheless bought Rome time, and it strenghtened their military apparatus ginormously. The setting of 40k does not allow that. Large scale cooperation is unthinkable for any of the fractions.

You are making the fatal error that they need to adapt their technology and have the cooperation of xenos. They don't.

**Hruotland**

They are stagnating because they simmer in their own juice. Yes they do.

**Grey Templar**

Do have evidence they would gain anything by cavorting with Xenos and their technology? Or are you just saying that.

**Hruotland**

We have to compare with real life evidence here, although the 40k universe is a constructed one and by default "knowledge is danger" instead of "knowledge is power". But in-world it is obvious, too. IOM restricts themselves to archeological research in questions of technological development, and they are not able to freely reproduce what they know. They would profit e.g. from bartering with the Tau, in order to develop a warp-independent ftl drive. They would profit form bartering with the Eldar, in order to enhance individual protection against warp attacks, and maybe they could rescue the emperor from his failing throne by studying the soulstone technology. Just three examples that spring to mind.

**purplefood**

I'd imagine it would take the Imperium several centuries to fall apart...
It's not particularly small and they are old hands at keeping the whole mess together...
Kinda.

**buddha**

Harriticus wrote:
If the Astronomican were to collapse it'd fall immediately and suddenly. Otherwise it's going to be a long, grueling, millennium-long process.

I think this is about right. So long as the emperor sits on the golden throne, however, the IoM will endure.

**chyron**

Hruotland wrote:
We have to compare with real life evidence here, although the 40k universe is a constructed one and by default "knowledge is danger" instead of "knowledge is power". But in-world it is obvious, too. IOM restricts themselves to archeological research in questions of technological development, and they are not able to freely reproduce what they know. They would profit e.g. from bartering with the Tau, in order to develop a warp-independent ftl drive. They would profit form bartering with the Eldar, in order to enhance individual protection against warp attacks, and maybe they could rescue the emperor from his failing throne by studying the soulstone technology. Just three examples that spring to mind.

No, real catchphrase describing AM is "Knowledge is power, guard it well" - applied to PERSONAL knowledge of any single AM.

Tau drive definitely in NOT warp-independent, and actually it's supremacy over short-hopping (like in "no Navigator") Warp is debatable (can BFG players provide some data?). And WarpDrive/Gellar field generator is tech already available to any imperial starship-building system.

Save 'crons an maybe DE, all other races are not known to posses technologies superior to DAoT and suitable for humans, actually not much of xeno tech is superior to Imperial pre-Heresy tech.

Now forcing AMs to -goddammit!!!- talk and share knowledge AMONG THEMSELVES would gradually increase Imperial tech to level that'll leave only 'crons and elfies to posses some advantage.

As for granting Eldar access to Golden Throne...well, no way in Hell - these manipulative bastards are too dangerous, and while enemies of Chaos, they're NOT friends of Men - look at Armageddon for.ex.

**Hruotland**

That neither race of 40k is designed to even consider cooperation is written on another stone. That IOM should work on its inner communication culture, also. Nevertheless, open your eyes. In RL history the prospering and expanding cultures or political units always have been those who were willing to incorporate newcomers, even overcome enemies, and who were adopting social, cultural and technological influences from the outside. By default this doesn't happen in 40k due to the "most grimdark race evvva trophy challenge". Everytime historical societies were at the point the IOM stands, being xenophobic, self-centered and hyperbolic, they were DOOOOOOMED I say. The only argument that can alter my position is if you can convince me it is not valid to apply rl sociology to a fictional setting. But then, that's we nerds fuel our RAAAAAGE with, applying our knowledge of dubious rl facts to fictional settings in order to outgun each other, isn't it?

**Grey Templar**

Tau warp drives suck. They are slow and have a limited range. The Tau are literally stuck in their dense cluster of stars, unable to expand much beyond them.

The Tau actually based their technology on a crashed imperial ship.

Eldar warp protection is for their souls, which are completely different from human souls. They maintain conciousness after death when they get nommed by daemons. So they have soul stones to capture their soul to protect it.

Humans don't have to worry about life after death.

**Hruotland**

Humans don't have to worry about life after death.

where is that written? Isn't the warp the sea of souls, where souls cluster with familiar ones, thus having brought forth the gods of chaos? meaning every human that doesn't end as a faithful follower of the emporer is nomnomed by one of THOSE entities?

Eldar warp protection is for their souls, which are completely different from human souls

Really? So human souls have NO connection to the warp? Why do they even worry about psychers then, everyone a pariah?

Naah, just because Eldar remain consciousness when they get demonetted they are not so different. I freely admit I have not read lot of eldar stuff, but I suppose the difference between eldar and human souls is the same as in RL between humans and animals. Meaning, no difference really, only in the mind of some hypocrites who want to believe in their superiority. Seems to me the main difference is the psychic level of the average individual. But just because the soul of a deceased human becomes an eggplant in the sea of souls doesn't mean it is in less danger than that of an eldar, being strong enough to stay a self-concious entity in the warp.

But I digress. This is mere speculation.

What is no speculation: that thing about the Tau even cements my point in universe. They are incorporating other people, by which means whatsoever, they are incorporating new technologies, and they expand. Sic!

**Grey Templar**

Yes, human souls enter the warp.

They are, however, too weak to maintain awareness. So they don't have to worry about the pain of getting nommed by daemons. They don't exist anymore for all practical purposes.

**andtheyshallknownofear**

I have a feeling that over thousands of years it would collapse inwards, and then there would be a new hero, outwards, repeat until end of universe.

**Brother Captain Alexander**

Hruotland wrote:

where is that written? Isn't the warp the sea of souls, where souls cluster with familiar ones, thus having brought forth the gods of chaos? meaning every human that doesn't end as a faithful follower of the emporer is nomnomed by one of THOSE entities?

5'th edition rulebook and Realm of Chaos, Emperor is guiding every Human soul that enters warp toward afterlife while keeping souls of his most faithful servants to himself ( I pressume this includes most famous Astartes like Sigmund and Grey Knights ).

**ragingmunkyz**

Some good debate, and nice comparisons to Rome. I wanted to contribute to that, but I can't help thinking the real answer is "not very close at all," because GW will never advance the storyline to the point of the empire actually collapsing.

**Klayhero**

Fluff wise i would like to see the Collapse of the IOM, it would be interesting.