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On topic though, I really reckon you should start from the ground up. I know that sounds bad, but think of it like this. At the moment, they central part of your faction, as much as you might wish it otherwise, is the german/russian thing, when it seems like the revolution gone bad would make a better centrepiece.

So why not start from scratch and make up a revolution gone bad. Use no names (instead use Character X, Location Y), and chart a quick timeline of the revolution, key players, and when the Imperium/Mechanicum/Whoever gets involved (were they involved early in helping the revolution go bad so the sector was disrupted when they arrived, or did they just arrive and clean up the mess?).

Once you have that you can decide upon a sort of theme, be that eastern European, German, what have you, but try to keep in mind what has been said before in your many threads, you probably don't want to be too heavy on that stuff. Use normal 40k names for most of the stuff, and maybe have a Colonel Schaudenfritz here or there, but not every second word a germanized thing because then it just becomes very hard to read.

After that you'll have a good solid background, and a good theme. Yeah it'll need tweaking, but whose work doesn't? I just really reckon taking it back to this step is your best chance, instead of working off the existing material which is too heavily germanised/russianised/what have you.

That's pretty good advice.
I'd also suggest that if you do use a theme don't use the names and words from whatever country just use their organisation and the ways they did things. I think that would work better.

 purplefood wrote:
That's pretty good advice.
I'd also suggest that if you do use a theme don't use the names and words from whatever country just use their organisation and the ways they did things. I think that would work better.

Yeah, that's true. A lot of worlds were originally named after cities. Making up new names and words that don't already exist helps a lot. Lord Kesharq did a good job with planet names for the Sturmkrieg Sector. I also stand by the realization that I came to that German words in 40k look terrible most of the time and that it works much better to use pseudo German words, but even that's questionable.

I was bored

I think this is the rebellion you should focus on, with a 40k twist, and would be way more fun and less likely to step somewhere better left alone (WW2, Nazis, Communism, overly Germanisation, etc). General outline of how it would fit in the 40k universe. The ending (which coincides with the current timeframe) also helps cut down on the german words and what not. It's fine having the sector, and an ancient hero, named really heavily german, but you're thing at the moment is way too heavy. And making something faux-german doesn't stop this oversaturation.

It retains mechanicum ties without breaking any established background, is pretty dark, and most of all leads to not-super-germanification-at-the-end. Anyway.

Location; Sturmkrieg Sector ≈ 38,000
Imperial forces invade the sector, quickly overrunning the disparate planets and system-empires. Setting up a puppet government, the Imperial forces moved on and began the process of pacification and Imperialisation. They also take a tithe for the Imperial Guard.

Location; Imperium at large ≈ 39,000
Sturmkrieg forces have been pressed into service as shock troops, earning much glory in the Emperor's name. They had been thrown into war after war, often under the general control of forces who had conducted the initial invasion of their system. This began to breed a certain resentment amongst the forces in several theatres, which built over decades. When they were eventually rotated home near the turn of the millennium, a charismatic General began to scheme. Slowly they gathered men loyal not to the Imperium, but to the ancient lords of the Sturmkrieg sector. When a large Imperial flotilla, with a detachment of Sturmkrieg soldiers aboard who were not involved in the conspiracy, they saw their chance to strike.

Location; Sturmkrieg Sector ≈ 40,000
As the flotilla arrived, in the first year of the new millennium, the rebels struck. Dropping out of warp, the Imperials approached through a debris field made of the ships which tried to stop their initial incursion 2,000 years ago. The field was so dense that the Imperial sensors gave no warning until it was too late. Hidden amongst the debris were the rebels, silent on almost entirely boarding vessels until the last moment. Roaring through space the rebels ambushed the Imperial convoy, killing everyone on board, including, through a tragic mix-up, the Sturmkrieg soldiers aboard, who mistook them for cultists masquerading as fellow Sturmkriegians (whatever). However their victory was to be short lived. With the death of the inspirational General who began the movement at the hands of one of his own Leftenants, the Imperial retaliation swiftly destroyed all remaining opposition. This time, the Imperial Commander decided that the rebellious nature of the sector needed to be addressed. Through a program of intensive colonisation and breeding, the local bloodlines were mostly diluted, and propagandists worked overtime to paint the inspirational General, who simply wanted to free his people, as a brutal dictator who would have turned the sector to the Great Enemy, citing the murder of the loyal Sturmkregian (whatever) soldiers on board the ships as proof of this. That those men simply misunderstood the situation, and the General was a good man, is information which has been repressed to such an extent that it ceased to be.

Location; Sturmkrieg Sector ≈41,000 (i.e. current day)
Nowadays, the Sturmkrieg sector is one of faith in the Emperor, a church on every corner if you will. The breeding program and colonisation introduced in the wake of the rebellion as led to the loss of most of the true Sturmkrieg culture, the ancient language only spoken by scholars and historians with an explicit interest in the area. The Mechanicum has also taken a large part in the reshaping of this system, their machinations and goals their own for now. Despite the repression of their people, some fathers still whisper to their sons that the evil General from history may not have been all he is made out to be, and that bloodlines pure from the ancient times still burn strong somewhere in the system. But this is treated as superstition by local authorities, and corrected. As it should be. Faith in the Emperor yadda yadda.

So the idea is people's names are more normal, instead of being Hans Gruberfeld, they'd be Carl Weber or something, Ralph Becker, that sort of thing, they have German roots but they aren't over the top. Similar with the place names, the root of the name survives but it is Imperialised to cut down on the people identifying with their old history in the way that the General did (I couldn't think of a 40k way to make his name without it being really obvious)

I am working on downplaying the names and selecting other sources for names. I like the overall suggestion, but the time scale is a bit off. For one thing, it's too recent for production of any significant Imperium weapons to occur. I don't really see the problem with the Mechanicum grabbing a sector. Someone under them wants to grab a sector, either for his own personal benefit or for the Mechanicum; that sort of thing happens. It creates background.

One of the things that I've often noticed is a certain rigidity with fanfiction. People come up with their own worlds, sectors, or armies that have their own character, but they're still cut from a mold in a way. I like the Volianvan Sector background, and I think there's a lot of good detail that gives character to it, but it still feels like it was made from a mold to a certain extent. They have a split with the Bevelle sub sector being somewhat independent due to struggles with the Volianvan Sector. Any time something goes into original territory, people can be too quick to deem it "uncannon." Obviously, that shouldn't used to justify total nonsense like the Stardust Empire, but something like replacing a planetary governor with an oligarchy elected by nobles is workable. The most recent rulebook even says that the "Imperium" doesn't care how planets are run, as long as they observe loyalty to the Imperium and don't do anything like worship Chaos.

Thanks for taking the time to write that suggestion; I appreciate it. I'll consider it. Exalted.

I should also add that all elements of pre Mechanicum Sturmkrieg are destroyed after the revolution, with the effect of preventing any counter revolution.

I found a lot of Sturmkrieg-like micronations on the micronation wiki. It was weird... I get the feeling that some of these people don't separate fiction from reality very well. I start writing about a fictional totalitarian society that's "awesome" and yet I still recognize that it wouldn't be a good idea to actually establish it. I'm not so sure about some of these other people. I'm not sure what Dondrekhan's views on Communism are, but I doubt that even he thinks that creating a Sturmkrieg-like civilization would be a good idea in reality.

Micronations =/= fictional nations, apart from the Micras community.
Don't confuse, please.

 Lord of Timbraxia wrote:
Micronations =/= fictional nations, apart from the Micras community.
Don't confuse, please.

I understand the difference, and that's what the concern is about. I don't worry when people make cool fictional versions of the USSR such as Valhalla or Red Alert, but I get concerned when people make a micronation, which is supposed to be real, and talk about how they plan to make it like the USSR or the German Empire. I don't care if people use the German Empire for thematic purposes, as GW did with Krieg, but it shows a disconnect with reality or desire for oppression when someone seriously wants to recreate the USSR. Also, the people who want to bring back the German Empire are all morons with a serious disconnect from reality.

What's the point that you're trying to make with this?

 LoneLictor wrote:
What's the point that you're trying to make with this?

^That and how is it actually related to your stuff beyond others sharing similar interests.

 LoneLictor wrote:
What's the point that you're trying to make with this?

There's not too much. I saw people doing this recently and I found it... disturbing. It's important to separate what's "cool" in a fiction sense from what's cool when it actually exists. Since micronations are "real," it's disturbing when people insert stuff like this into them.

 Inquisitor Ehrenstein wrote:

 LoneLictor wrote:
What's the point that you're trying to make with this?

There's not too much. I saw people doing this recently and I found it... disturbing. It's important to separate what's "cool" in a fiction sense from what's cool when it actually exists. Since micronations are "real," it's disturbing when people insert stuff like this into them.

So, you're saying that you saw other fake German nations like yours and were horrified?

 LoneLictor wrote:

 Inquisitor Ehrenstein wrote:

 LoneLictor wrote:
What's the point that you're trying to make with this?

There's not too much. I saw people doing this recently and I found it... disturbing. It's important to separate what's "cool" in a fiction sense from what's cool when it actually exists. Since micronations are "real," it's disturbing when people insert stuff like this into them.

So, you're saying that you saw other fake German nations like yours and were horrified?

No. People trying to create literal versions of the German Empire in the real world. Those people need to learn what's cool in a story and what's cool in real life. A highly militaristic civilization based on WWI Germans is cool in a game. In real life it led to WWII.

To put it another way, I doubt that the people who work for GW who created Krieg would advocate for recreating the German Empire in reality.

Oh...

So you just decided to drop by and remind us all that the German Empire wasn't good, in case we'd forgotten.

How exactly does this relate to your fluff?

LoneLictor wrote:Oh...

So you just decided to drop by and remind us all that the German Empire wasn't good, in case we'd forgotten.

I'm not totally sure, but the nationalism wasn't. It was understandable and reasonable at the time after being occupied by France, but now with the historical perspective and the fact that it led to eastern front, any serious attempt to bring it back is severely deluded.

purplefood wrote:How exactly does this relate to your fluff?

It doesn't really we should stop. It makes clear that I make the distinction, on the chance that people who don't should see it. Which they probably won't

Purplefood, is your title having to do with the fact that Resin Forge called Dakka Dakka and Lexicanum a cult?

Slightly yes...
Also, back to your fluff. I don't think anyone seriously think you want to create the 4th Reich because of your fluff. You do seem slightly obsessed with both WWII era Soviets and Nazi Germany in pretty much all of the posts I have ever seen you post. That is more likely to convince people you are some kind of neo-nazi...

One of the reasons I'm making it less German is because of how much I dislike German nationalist kiddies and how I think it's a bit... excessive to limit one's interest in it. It has a great theme, particularly in WWI, and it's a really interesting story of a nation coming to power, but seriously supporting it with historical perspective is foolish.

I think the main reason you should make it less German is because it sucked like that...
It's not a particularly original theme either. There's hundreds of years of history totally untouched, dozens of civilisations and people still flock to WWII because it's fairly recent and in the 40k universe it's easy to use.

 purplefood wrote:
I think the main reason you should make it less German is because it sucked like that...
It's not a particularly original theme either. There's hundreds of years of history totally untouched, dozens of civilisations and people still flock to WWII because it's fairly recent and in the 40k universe it's easy to use.

I don't normally repeat myself this frequently but this^^. Start again and pick a better theme, this is dead in the water considering the changes that you do make when you get around to it.

 purplefood wrote:
I think the main reason you should make it less German is because it sucked like that...
It's not a particularly original theme either. There's hundreds of years of history totally untouched, dozens of civilisations and people still flock to WWII because it's fairly recent and in the 40k universe it's easy to use.

I also went for the French Revolution, because that is a problem. I was also thinking something like the WWII US in relation to production, which is WWII, but no one does that side. German stuff for the most part sucks. It doesn't fit outside of WWI if you aren't doing Nazis, unless you add something else to it.

You could always go with something like the Italy thing.

Have city states that are constantly at war with each other until they grow to control entire regions (and are still at war with each other every now and then) then eventually one conquers the others with assistance from the Mechnicus (Or maybe just the Imperium). The planet is brought into the Imperium and a better age begins...

Basically ditch WWII. It's been done. Over done. It is tired and clichéd in 40k.

Two of the important things that I see that really need work are the way that Sturmkrieg fits in with the Mechanicum and Imperium, and the German names and themes.

It's also important to blend the German and Russian themes without cutting two themes in half and gluing them together. I think the current flag accomplishes that well; it's vaguely Soviet, but still fits with the theme of the Mechanicum. Regardless of the theme, it still a perfect fit for the Mechanicum.

I also don't really care for any German Empire specific stuff, other than the time period. Probably something similar to Krieg.

 Inquisitor Ehrenstein wrote:
Two of the important things that I see that really need work are the way that Sturmkrieg fits in with the Mechanicum and Imperium, and the German names and themes.

You keep coming back and saying 'this is the important thing to change', then doing nothing to make it better.

 Inquisitor Ehrenstein wrote:
It's also important to blend the German and Russian themes without cutting two themes in half and gluing them together. I think the current flag accomplishes that well; it's vaguely Soviet, but still fits with the theme of the Mechanicum. Regardless of the theme, it still a perfect fit for the Mechanicum.

So what if the flag fits (can we get a picture of it here so we can see it and judge that for ourselves, because I'd be surprised if it is as good of a fit as you claim). The actual fluff of the whole thing is the problem, not the flag.

 Inquisitor Ehrenstein wrote:
I also don't really care for any German Empire specific stuff, other than the time period. Probably something similar to Krieg.

I don't get what you mean by this, you are going to go bleak generic WW1 siege/trench warfare stuff as opposed to your WW2 nazi/communist stuff?

I realize that I need to make the changes, but I'm also putting into words where I see problems.

The last bit wasn't explained very well. I've been feeling down recently because of some of the people who I've encountered who get a bit to serious with the whole German Empire nationalism thing, without realizing the distinction between what's "cool" in fiction and in real life. I mentioned that recently and I didn't want to go into it again. What I meant is that I was going for the 19th century retro futuristic German theme, and that I wasn't getting caught up in any foolish ideas about German power or nationalism.

 Inquisitor Ehrenstein wrote:

The last bit wasn't explained very well. I've been feeling down recently because of some of the people who I've encountered who get a bit to serious with the whole German Empire nationalism thing, without realizing the distinction between what's "cool" in fiction and in real life.

So what. That is completely unrelated to you fixing your fluff. The problem isn't that some randoms you know take German nationalism seriously (and really how is taking 19th century German nationalism seriously that bad of a thing (other than the fact it's a bit dated) or any worse than any kind of current nation nationalism). The problem is that your fluff has a lot of holes, inconsistencies with the established universe, an overabundance of silly half-German half-whatever names, and tired, overused themes that you seem unable to let go of in any meaningful way.

I realise that may be a bit harsh, but that's twice you've brought up what some randoms think of 19th century German Empire nationalism, and it has nothing to do with you fixing your 40k fluff. At all.

I meant to ask this question before, and forgot. Without it, mentioning this was completely useless.

Here's the idea:

Since the Mechanicum isn't supposed to be acquiring large amounts of territory, that poses a problem for the Sturmkrieg Sector organization.

An alternative that works with what I've worked on is that the leader of the Mechanicum expeditionary force wants to take the sector completely on his own for the Mechanicum, and for his own benefit. One or two hundred years after he dies, the Imperium finds out and they begin to establish Imperium officies and structure.

One thing I have a question about is whether they would start separate militaries. Would they have the Imperial Guard and the Skitarii, or would they just continue to have the Skitarii?

An Imperial presence on a world (so a Governor or something) all but guarantees a PDF of some kind, and depending on how they go about establishing Imperial control and supplanting Mechanicum control, Guard units would be present as well.

But I can't see Skitarii units that took part in controlling a sector outside of the Imperium's control, and in defiance of their laws, as being allowed to exist after this was discovered. The expensive units may be shut down and mindwiped, Praetorians and what not, I don't know how valued they are by the Mechanicum, but the regular Skitarii would probably be cleansed in case any code from the rebellious forces (because that's what they are, by taking over a sector and not paying tithes as required etc, they are rebels and heretics) remains.

 motyak wrote:
An Imperial presence on a world (so a Governor or something) all but guarantees a PDF of some kind, and depending on how they go about establishing Imperial control and supplanting Mechanicum control, Guard units would be present as well.

But I can't see Skitarii units that took part in controlling a sector outside of the Imperium's control, and in defiance of their laws, as being allowed to exist after this was discovered. The expensive units may be shut down and mindwiped, Praetorians and what not, I don't know how valued they are by the Mechanicum, but the regular Skitarii would probably be cleansed in case any code from the rebellious forces (because that's what they are, by taking over a sector and not paying tithes as required etc, they are rebels and heretics) remains.

They would still pay taxes and send forces to the Imperium and everything else required from the moment that they become part of the Mechanicum. If it's still not right, then the Volianvan Sector could probably step in after establishment and begin setting up Imperium offices and structure. I can see having the Skitarii and Imperial Guard. They could function mostly the same way within the sector, but just be controlled by different organizations. There would be some specific differences, such as the Imperial Guard having restrictions against having their own transports. Is the Skitarii subject to fewer restrictions than the Imperial Guard, and would this make them better for attacking?