anyone else get tired of the constant bitching?

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**JbR of the Endless Spire**

I actually do quite agree with you, I'm tired of the whole 'my dex doesn't get as much love as your dex' the rules themselves aren't a problem, GW sells models, not a game. So such as it is the game itself will never establish a perfect balance, its pointless to get upset or annoyed about it because GW aren't gona change their business plan because its not about the game for them, its about the models. The thing is people have every right to complain about the rules as lets face it thats why most people buy the models. But GW aren't going to listen, other people might... so I don't blame them for venting their frustrations into the void of the interwebz...

**Leth**

Legitimate complaint about a company does not = bitching. Repeating what everyone else says, complaining about something that is OPINION BASED as if it were fact and then insulting anyone who did not share the same opinion. I have my problems with GW, but most of that has to do with the fact that I have more wants than dollars, not with actual rules or business practices(DAMN YOU FORGEWORLD). Yet every single time they improve its never enough,

"WELL X group over here does this one thing better so GW should do it that way to", would it be nice? sure. But then we get the white dwarfs giving people what they want and then having to stop because people would get pissed. I love when people try to compare things one to one and say something is superior. You compare the entire package or nothing at all.

TedNugent wrote:
Question, do you realize the extraordinary irony in that you are bitching about other people complaining about things.Yes, that is why I put it at the end of my post, Learn to read?

The only reason you are complaining about this is because you go through the trouble to carefully read and analyze and take into careful consideration every post where someone is complaining on a forum, collect them into a mental stockpile, go through the menial task of taking a tally of said stockpile, and then go and whine about the audacity of said people to place such posts on a forum where you could perchance accidentally glaze your eyes over these acidic, painful words on a webforum. Right, I treat people as people, I am sorry if that seems to offend you somehow. For people to post such vitriol they must be feeling some level of anguish

Here's a tip, first thing:You want to know what is funniest about this? I never asked for advice, but for some reason he feels the need to offer it. Anyone else get bothered by that?

A) you don't have to read anything on a webforum Your right I don't but usually the benefits outweigh the negatives. I was simply mentioning a grievance and seeing if the opinion was shared.
B) you don't have to be on the internet Actually it is starting to become more and more mandatory, especially in my field. Heck for school there were things you could not do without the internet
C) if you're tired of constant bitching, log out for a few days, maybe no one will even miss you I for the most part can only stomach so much a day, which is a shame because there is a lot of quality stuff that I just dont get to see. Of course they wont miss me, I don't feel the need to spread my opinion everywhere enough to be a recognized name. How ego-centric do you need to be to think you would actually be noticed if you stopped posting?(unless your a rumor poster, keep on keeping on)
D) you can use the Ignore feature for users that you dislike Yea, except individuals are not negative all the time, and it completely throws off the flow of a thread when enough users are blocked
E) you could even read, but take less seriously the posts that you happen to disagree with so that you don't burst a blood vessel every time one of them comes into contact with your eyeballsI don't care if you have a different OPINION than me, I have a problem with individuals constant need to smear it across everything and especially in a way that insults mine
F) the OP is a waste of space and a complete waste of mental processing cyclesSo you decide because of one post that I am a waste of existence? I am going to be dedicating a large part of my life to helping individuals with disabilities get accepted and functional in the workplace, but I guess I am a waste of mental processing cycles because of my opinion on peoples comments. Just because we are on the internet we are still people. I have to assume you have forgotten that, otherwise your behavior would be slightly socio-pathic

This is all aside from the fact of whether any of these people actually have any legitimate grievance or the fact that you're seeing a common complaint over and over again maybe indicating some general consensus.OR it could be that people who have a issue are more likely to post. Look into internet echo chambers research, it would really help put a perspective on your perspective. and what does that have to do with constantly derailing threads that have nothing to do with the grievance?

What a ridiculous thread. Mods?

In my opinion, from an activists perspective, when people are telling you about alternate game systems or trying to lead you towards products that are more deserving of your attention, you ought to pay attention to it.

Remember when competition and price wars were a good thing?

I HAVE SEEN THE LIGHT, MAY MY GLORIOUS SALVATION BE AT HAND, I AM BUT A SHEEP AND PRIVATEER PRESS IS MY NEW SHEPARD. Seriously you get to decide for me what is worth my attention? how full of yourself do you have to be to decide that you have it right, and everyone who doesn't agree is wrong.

This all works under the assumption that I have a problem with my current product, which I do not. I am in general happier with it than I was through all of 4th and 5th(even then I still enjoyed it)

I have no problem when competition forces companies to compete, if they are selling similar enough products.

I love how the above post basically defends in effect what I am doing but calls me an idiot and says that when I am doing it I am a waste of space, but it is okay for him and others to do it. Quite interesting really.

For everyone else, thank you for your constructive comments and criticisms. For the most part this is the kind of civil discourse that is appreciated, the kind of language and tone you would get sitting at a coffee table.

**Daedricbob**

To be honest compared to /most/ other public forums I have used on t'interwebs I have to say Dakka is a paragon of quality posting and efficient moderation.

Try the Eve Online forums if you want to see proper bitching

**Monster Rain**

There are always going to be haters.

If all someone does is be a turd in the punchbowl I typically just ignore them. There's valid criticism and then there's just racking up thousands of posts on a website dedicated to a company that you claim to despise.

But to directly answer the question, yes, it feels me with bemused loathing that people can get as ramped up about a toy company as they do.

**Sephyr**

Monster Rain wrote:
There are always going to be haters.

If all someone does is be a turd in the punchbowl I typically just ignore them. There's valid criticism and then there's just racking up thousands of posts on a website dedicated to a company that you claim to despise.

But to directly answer the question, yes, it feels me with bemused loathing that people can get as ramped up about a toy company as they do.

People also get ramped up over 22 millionaires kicking a ball back and forth. Enough to kill each other over it, in my country. It's human nature you, you know, CARe about the things we care, even if they are hobbies and not that important in the grand scheme of things.

Also, do consider that reflexively branding people with grievances as 'haters' is just as much a blanket, potentially aggravating statement as crapping over everything GW does. Or that many of us complain hoping to have some sort of effect in order to _stay_ within the hobby and GW's loving power-amorerd embrace.

**Tycho**

Legitimate complaint about a company does not = bitching ...

There in lies the problem. Define legitimate. I (for example) have a lot of gripes with the new Chaos dex. I can support each with a valid argument and specific reasons/examples for why I feel that way, and for the few things that I dislike just because I dislike them, I tend to state that "hey, nothing wrong there, it's just not for me". To me, that's not bitching. To me, bitching is "x unit sucks!!!!!!!". If you can say "I dislike x unit because of reasons x,y,z" that's just having an opinion and trying to support it with facts/figures/comparisons, etc. It's basically the start of a discussion. Yet even when I've done that, even in situations of hard evidence behind what I'm saying, some will say that the issue is NOT legitimate and that my views alone are the problem.

So I try to look at this way - if someone is saying they dislike something and giving balanced and thought out arguments, I'm going to listen because (IMO), that's not bitching. If someone is just screaming "X is OP, ZOMG, so and so is so stupid" ... well, yeah that guy's not getting much of my attention.

I think we have a lot more good discussion here than people realize, and certainly a lot more then the web community at large gives us credit for. My two cents anyway.

**Ratius**

^^ +1 to that post.

Constructive and analytical debate should never be classed as bitching nor ignored, its what makes thread topics interesting.
If one can back up an argument as you said with coherent and relatively logical points and stats/figures/points of view, more power to them and the more welcome it is to me.

There have been some raging debates over the years in the tactics or background section (and some definitely do get too personal) but in general the discussions are informative and worth reading - assuming one has an interest in them in the first place.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'd also say that thread duplication can play a part too.
If one person begins a matt ward hate thread and states some fairly logical reasons for that, fine, no issues.
Its when later that week someone else does the same thing and then the week after ad nauseum that certain areas of the game can be seen as "just bitching".
Forum perceptions play a big part in bitching too (sheep mentality, duplicated threads, peoples viewing habits etc).

**d3m01iti0n**

Im getting a Stormraven, I have no reason to bitch anymore. In case anybody has noticed my lack of posting lately =)

**ShatteredBlade**

When it is constructive and analytic I don't mind, but when it turns into nothing but four pages of bashing? Then I get upset.

**captain collius**

d3m01iti0n wrote:
Im getting a Stormraven, I have no reason to bitch anymore. In case anybody has noticed my lack of posting lately =)

Noted and glad to see some of the rage has dimmed (well only a little)

ALso Dark Angels fans have a new codex so most of us are generally happy. (unless you bring up the fething Nephilim.)

**Makumba**

respect your opinion the least you can do is respect mine.

that is not how the world work . the moment you decide that a different point of view is just as viable as your own , you just lost , because there is no way anyone born west of elba thinks the same way .

I see nothing like the levesl of bitching on the RPG or boardgame forums I visit as I do here. Also, there is nothign wrong with complaining but it is the people who do so non-stop and still buy GW's products that blow my mind.

only the thing is that an RPG with a bad mechanic system or no viable way to play without them , is dead. w40k lives by the sole fact that people are lied to when they start playing the game . that everything is good , that its the looks that should make you want to play something . all of which is false.the thing is by the time a new player notices this he already has an unworking army and no longer is the focus group for GW. there is also the time factor . now if someone plays marines he always has an ok dex . the problems start when someone has to use something like the 4th ed chaos codex for 5 years or when your an de player and have to wait 10+years for a new codex[although the number of masochists doing that is probably low].people "bitch" all the time , because they dont like the way their codex players for years and years , and there is nothing they can do to fix it .
Imagine someone who has to play SW/IG and necron air forces , they are ok playing against each other , but when you play something like BT your in for another few months/years of no fun .

**d3m01iti0n**

captain collius wrote:
d3m01iti0n wrote:
Im getting a Stormraven, I have no reason to bitch anymore. In case anybody has noticed my lack of posting lately =)

Noted and glad to see some of the rage has dimmed (well only a little)

ALso Dark Angels fans have a new codex so most of us are generally happy. (unless you bring up the fething Nephilim.)

Admit it, you miss the ZEEEAAAALLLLLLLLL!!!!!!!!!

Ive also been playing a lot more lately, like twice a week sometimes. I get most of my Litanies of Hate out during gaming.

**Leth**

When did respect = just as viable? When I recognize that something is an OPINION, as in based on personal perspective, how can I tell them something is wrong? It is when you get into facts that you can start to argue. However a lot of people have trouble telling the difference between opinion and fact.......

In my mind if something doesn't work, you stop doing it and try something else. If you still want to use it then make the best of what you got. If you don't like the flier fantastic, don't use it. But when someone says they want to try it out and are asking for help with how to use it the correct answer is not DON'T USE IT followed by two pages of bitching. Now if you think that is the most helpful way then go right ahead but it is my opinion that it is not the case. I am sure the data would back me up if it came to it.

**captain collius**

d3m01iti0n wrote:
captain collius wrote:
d3m01iti0n wrote:
Im getting a Stormraven, I have no reason to bitch anymore. In case anybody has noticed my lack of posting lately =)

Noted and glad to see some of the rage has dimmed (well only a little)

ALso Dark Angels fans have a new codex so most of us are generally happy. (unless you bring up the fething Nephilim.)

Admit it, you miss the ZEEEAAAALLLLLLLLL!!!!!!!!!

Ive also been playing a lot more lately, like twice a week sometimes. I get most of my Litanies of Hate out during gaming.

A little I miss our old arguments.

Ahh your like me it all friendly till the game starts after that no holds barred.

**warpspider89**

Spyral wrote:
Leth wrote:
Seriously i understand right to free speech and all that but it feels like i can't enter a thread that looks interesting or have someone getting excited, without people going out of their way to complain about gw. You don't like a business practice, congratulations. The number of times i have started to enjoy a thread only for someone to derail it with snarky comments, number of times i have a full post ready to go and have to delete it because it is in response to something assinine not the actual topic. That afterwards all my desire to even work on the hobby for the day is gone because of all the negativity. Which is a shame because good contributions are also what gets me excited about working on my models.

I mean what does bitching to us do? If people on here spent half as much energy writing to gw then something might actually get done. It seems like they sense other people enjoying something and just have to degrade their opinions and insult them.

I like the g.i.Joe fliers, i like the Dino bots, and i like most of matt wards fluff. Here comes the insult train. I respect your opinion the least you can do is respect mine.

And for those of you going "well its just some jerk off on the internet why let it bother you", look into any research on the subject. I still see you as and try to treat people online as if they were in person. I don't use anonymity to be a jerk, there are real people i am communicating with.

Does anyone else feel this way, or is it just me?

Rant over

And yes i see the irony of bitching about all the bitching

When failcast and the price hike happened I wrote a polite letter. Encouraged others to do the same. Got no reply from GW so don't know if it was worth it.

It is always worth it because it adds to the pile of complaints on [x] issue. The bigger the pile the more likely it will be dealt with. : )

**CaptainGrey**

insaniak wrote:
CaptainGrey wrote:
It's an internet forum.

People literally come here to whine.

That's an extremely simplistic view of it.

People come here to discuss their hobby. For some, that discussion may focus more on the negative than the positive... and for others, it's the other way around.

There are very few posters on Dakka who only ever have a negative contribution.

It's not to say that people only come here to whine, but that when you have a gripe about 40k, chances are, you're going to go on a forum to whine about it.

**Makumba**

Now if you think that is the most helpful way then go right ahead but it is my opinion that it is not the case. I am sure the data would back me up if it came to it.

I dont know how w40k cost is seen in america as I dont live there , but in general if a dude would have to buy every bad thing to test it first , he would leave the game and probably the hobby after 1-2 tries. People who tell why not to do stuff save other people money . That is more helpful both for the person and for the hobby , then going "you know if your playing casual , what ever that is, try to use it to counter X , which is also a bad units and you will never get to see it . Ah and hope that your opponent is a bad player , maybe he gets scared of how the unit is painted and converted".

and if someone doesnt understand why plasma is better in 6th ed or why melta shouldnt be put on footslogging units , well then they shouldnt probably be asking what to put in to a list , but reading the rule book again .

**KhornateCake**

I don't know if it's been said before but GW is a BUSINESS, the whole idea of a business is to make money, should they really care that your Dark Talon that you spent £45 is utter gak? No they shouldn't because they have your money, they have achieved their goal, it was your decision to buy it.

I agree with the OP totally because GW workers/staff probably come on this website and just laugh at threads like " I want GW to upgrade the Dark Talon to have super-awesome-meltabomb-firing-missles!!!!!". Making money is their goal so if they put up the prices on everything and see hardly any fall in price's then they've earnt themselves a nice holiday.

**HerbaciousT**

I completely understand your opinion OP. Sadly, complaints are always going to be par for the course with any internet forum. GW is the target of some some unique ones, but often they are tired old ones. Such as price increases, overpowered models/units, fliers, codex rants. Some are legitimate points people are trying to make. But due to the balance of them being generic rage and unrealistic views of how this hobby should work, those get ignored as more hate and rage.

I just tend to ignore all the hate/complaint threads. Dakka has a generally positive and helpful population.

**Sephyr**

KhornateCake wrote:
I don't know if it's been said before but GW is a BUSINESS, the whole idea of a business is to make money, should they really care that your Dark Talon that you spent £45 is utter gak? No they shouldn't because they have your money, they have achieved their goal, it was your decision to buy it.

Let's further elaborate that business concept: more balanced and effective units sell more and longer than those that are poorly thought out. I don't have the sales data for Helldrakes and Mutilators, but I'll bet my bottom dollar that one of those is outselling the other briskily.

Now here's another concept: GW likely spent a similar amount of cash and other resources setting up both of those. Paying a guy to design them, sculpt them, then a whole prodiction line to churning out sprues.

One of those investments paid off. The other did not. It left them with stock that moves very slowly or not at all, or keeps being shipped to stores that don't sell it and ship it back, harming your logistics, wasting display space, etc.

Now let's compare it to other times in which GW had a different approach: the Necron codex back in 5th. Were there power builds spamming the hell out of 2-3 units? Of course. But it also had a very good, workable diversity of models spread across all FOC slots. You could see people making hordes, artillery with Doom arks, Doom Scythes and their nasty death rays, or farming scarabs to dismantle mech armies. Even better, you could evenr ealistically expenc people to buy one kind of army and then expand it into different kind of forces eventuelly by getting new models: Immortals to replace warriors, different cryptek courts, etc. Other than Flayed Ones and Illuminor Szeras, there were no real duds in the line-up. That's before 6th arrived and reshuffled the cards somethig fierce, mind.

**warpspider89**

KhornateCake wrote:
I don't know if it's been said before but GW is a BUSINESS, the whole idea of a business is to make money, should they really care that your Dark Talon that you spent £45 is utter gak? No they shouldn't because they have your money, they have achieved their goal, it was your decision to buy it.

I agree with the OP totally because GW workers/staff probably come on this website and just laugh at threads like " I want GW to upgrade the Dark Talon to have super-awesome-meltabomb-firing-missles!!!!!". Making money is their goal so if they put up the prices on everything and see hardly any fall in price's then they've earnt themselves a nice holiday.

Of course they care about it. A business seeks to exist in the long term. A single transaction is meaningless if it does not encourage further interaction with the business, which will lead to further transactions. The idea that they will rip you off and kick you out without caring is overly simplistic.

**Vaktathi**

Keep in mind that forums like this is where people come to bitch about things that'd otherwise fester and make them leave, or that they just can't/won't/don't want to bitch about around a gaming table. It's an outlet and an avenue for discussion.

I'm not going to bitch about how stupid I think Space Wolves are when I'm sitting there at game night. I may do it here, where other can discuss why they agree or disagree without making someone too butthurt that I may have to play every couple weeks for years on end.

**Leth**

Makumba wrote:
Now if you think that is the most helpful way then go right ahead but it is my opinion that it is not the case. I am sure the data would back me up if it came to it.

I dont know how w40k cost is seen in america as I dont live there , but in general if a dude would have to buy every bad thing to test it first , he would leave the game and probably the hobby after 1-2 tries. People who tell why not to do stuff save other people money . That is more helpful both for the person and for the hobby , then going "you know if your playing casual , what ever that is, try to use it to counter X , which is also a bad units and you will never get to see it . Ah and hope that your opponent is a bad player , maybe he gets scared of how the unit is painted and converted".

and if someone doesnt understand why plasma is better in 6th ed or why melta shouldnt be put on footslogging units , well then they shouldnt probably be asking what to put in to a list , but reading the rule book again .

Notice how I prefaced by saying that someone wanted to take a unit. Not that they wanted advice on a unit, or were asking what to buy. They wanted to use a unit and were asking advice on how to use it, my point was that telling them it should "fly your shelf" is not helpful in that regard. Yet it somehow turned in to them buying a bunch of crap units and leaving the hobby.....

**TedNugent**

I'm sorry, but I did see the phrase "tired of the constant bitching," and assume that you were conflating legitimate criticism with "bitching."

I don't find reducing someone's opinion to "bitching" to be reflective of a sense of respect towards that opinion.

**Guardslayer**

And yes i see the irony of bitching about all the bitching

**Leth**

TedNugent wrote:
I'm sorry, but I did see the phrase "tired of the constant bitching," and assume that you were conflating legitimate criticism with "bitching."

I don't find reducing someone's opinion to "bitching" to be reflective of a sense of respect towards that opinion.

I am sorry that I did not make it clear in the first post that legitimate criticisms does not = bitching. Bitching is all about tone, repetitiveness, and treatment of others.

Let me show the difference:

"I dont like the new asthetics of some of the models that GW is putting out or I wish they had put more effort into correcting grammar" legitimate, especially if followed by reasons/examples, but not necessary. That is a constructive and legitimate while not demeaning the opinions of others.

VRS

"I think that I like the new dark angel flyer, I think it would be interesting to see how the additional anti infantry works with my X force. I know it is not the most powerful but I would like to give it a shot and see how it does"
"Yea well it sucks, I dont know why GW even bothers to release rules, you should go to privateer press and everyone who doesn't is a GW cock sucker/fanboy"
"But I was asking for help with the flyer....."
"Too late it is now a Mat Ward hate thread, just try again in a few days"

**Monster Rain**

That's a good way of putting it.

There is a vast difference between valid criticism and being a whiny, obnoxious hater.

**Bobthehero**

Fully agreed. Should probably stay from the thread where the whine will be obvious.

**sennacherib**

Use the "ignore" button. I used it on about 4 dakkaites and dakka suddenly became a friendly place. The number of actual whiners is low. They just whine a lot.

**DarknessEternal**

Dakka wouldn't exist without the whiners, so it's implicitly encouraged.