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 Sean_OBrien wrote:

 Rainbow Dash wrote:
well I should cash in on this craze and stick space marine into my novel... though it's a fantasy...

ooh there's an alicorn in there... wonder if hasbro will come after me...

Nope - part of the reasoning behind the SRD/Open Gaming thing they did was that when they bought out WotC was that the Hasbro lawyers sat down and looked over the new IP that came with the acquisition. They came to conclusion that very little was actually protectable (well - not very little, but huge chunks and swaths were in the public domain). They ended up breaking it down into the open content (monsters, rules and the like) and "Product Identity" materials like beholders, yuan-ti and slaad as well as the various specific settings like Faerun.

GW could very well learn a few things from Hasbro.

they don't even own many of the my little pony names they used from the 80s and 90s...not sure why or who now does
but that's good, at any rate (they never actually refereed to Alicorns as, well Alicorns in the show, the only use of the word was an amulet, and the word is, well old, older then space marine, but not as well known or used

I hope the Royal Marines sue GW. Shame on you GW, shame on you. This is so feaking stupid. Lame to the limit.

Christopher Tolkien, I don't like you. But it's time for you to take what's your's for "eldar". Go ahead.

Formats
Amazon price New from Used from
Kindle Edition $6.42 -- --
Paperback $19.79 $15.79 $38.02

Ok, checked with Amazon again and looks like the Kindle edition has been restored (even tried to order -I'm now itching to know if Spots gets to use her mommy powers to communicate with the evil Crabs.... not available in Spain, though). Whatever happened in the backstage, we may never know.

Now I`m a bit scared to walk into my FGLS for my weekly game of 40k. The Malifaux-Infinity-FoW crowds are going to have quite a laugh at our expense

 Kanluwen wrote:
[It's why I am firmly of the belief that the author was looking for her 15 minutes of fame.

Honest question - do you believe that Games Workshop is the only party that has the right to use the name "Space Marine" in literature?

if she was I don't think she would have picked something rather obscure, but something everyone knows, like star wars
you leech on something hugely successful and something that's a household name, not a niche thing that a lot of people don't even know

 Ouze wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
It's why I am firmly of the belief that the author was looking for her 15 minutes of fame.

Honest question - do you believe that Games Workshop is the only party that has the right to use the name "Space Marine" in literature?

Of course not, but I think this instance is a bit more complex than simply "GW went after this poor poor woman for using Space Marine in the title of her 'book'."

As I said earlier, the book's Amazon page was full of fake reviews heralding the book as being the "next Starship Troopers" and it kept showing up in the same search results as "Games Workshop" or "Black Library" prior to this whole debacle starting.
Some keep saying this is a result of Amazon's search engine, but it's not like I was searching for "Space Marine" where it would make sense now is it? Someone--I don't know whether it was the author, her friends, or just some jokers on the Internets--kept plugging the search engine so that "Spots the Space Marine" was showing up in searches for GW material on Amazon. That's why I made my remark that the author is looking for her 15 minutes of fame. It's a self-published serialization of her "novel" that she wrote on her LiveJournal years ago. If this whole debacle did not happen, she would just be another self-published "author" who sells maybe one or two of her books a year.
But now with this happening? She's got all these people rallying behind her, wanting to buy the book, etc.

It's awfully convenient and I'm inclined to think the worst for this particular situation--especially considering that it is not really a state secret that Games Workshop aggressively defends what they consider to be their "property" and would likely have no good will engendered towards them if they started a program where they had vans filled with puppies to be given away for free to children all over the world.

So if you concur that they don't own the rights to the name "Space Marine", then why does all that unrelated stuff you keep throwing up matter?

Are you saying that other authors can use the phrase and concept of a Space Marine, unless it becomes popular enough that it might cost GW money in potentially lost sales?

I mean, so what if it showed up in related searches?

Also, do you have absolutely any evidence for these claims you keep making about how she or her friends colluded to game Amazon's search somehow or that she had a whole bunch of fake reviews? And is that even actually gaming, if she wrote a book about Space Marines and it showed up with other Space Marine related books? I mean, that sounds like "working as intended" to me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kanluwen wrote:
considering that it is not really a state secret that Games Workshop aggressively defends what they consider to be their "property"

When even you agree it's not actually their property, in what possible way does this not make them wrong?

 Rainbow Dash wrote:
if she was I don't think she would have picked something rather obscure, but something everyone knows, like star wars
you leech on something hugely successful and something that's a household name, not a niche thing that a lot of people don't even know

Spots the Stormtrooper would have been a better move in this case, as Stormtrooper generally refers to First out Marines (storming the beach and all) and can be generic enough to get away with it. Though Lucasfilm would probably let her walk away with it knowing her ebook would never garner that much attention (reading the small bit I did, Its pretty aweful, and yes a ripoff of Starship Troopers, insert Bugs instead of Crabs at every mention and the protagonist is a horrible mary sue, its more or less decent fanfic at best.)

But just because her book is bad, doesnt mean GW gets to unleash the lawdogs on her for using the title. (though I wouldn't blame the Heimlien estate if they did. but while they are at it, go ahead and sue GW for the power armor ripoff) I find it disheartening that someone has the chutzpah to go around with C/D's for trademarks of IPs they have been ripping off for decades. Space marine? not their concept. Power Armor? nope. Dystopian future filled with xenophobic racists? LOL star wars actually beat them to that one! Though I do believe a future built in with ancient gothic architecture is one that belongs to them. Even most of battlefleet gothic reminded me of the battlecruiser from aliens.

I wonder if GW forgot they are just the big fish in a small pond. Get into the mainstream media, and the public goes "games...Who??? Woah does blizzard know they are ripping them off?"

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Ouze wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
It's why I am firmly of the belief that the author was looking for her 15 minutes of fame.

Honest question - do you believe that Games Workshop is the only party that has the right to use the name "Space Marine" in literature?

Of course not, but I think this instance is a bit more complex than simply "GW went after this poor poor woman for using Space Marine in the title of her 'book'."

As I said earlier, the book's Amazon page was full of fake reviews heralding the book as being the "next Starship Troopers" and it kept showing up in the same search results as "Games Workshop" or "Black Library" prior to this whole debacle starting.
Some keep saying this is a result of Amazon's search engine, but it's not like I was searching for "Space Marine" where it would make sense now is it? Someone--I don't know whether it was the author, her friends, or just some jokers on the Internets--kept plugging the search engine so that "Spots the Space Marine" was showing up in searches for GW material on Amazon. That's why I made my remark that the author is looking for her 15 minutes of fame. It's a self-published serialization of her "novel" that she wrote on her LiveJournal years ago. If this whole debacle did not happen, she would just be another self-published "author" who sells maybe one or two of her books a year.
But now with this happening? She's got all these people rallying behind her, wanting to buy the book, etc.

It's awfully convenient and I'm inclined to think the worst for this particular situation--especially considering that it is not really a state secret that Games Workshop aggressively defends what they consider to be their "property" and would likely have no good will engendered towards them if they started a program where they had vans filled with puppies to be given away for free to children all over the world.

None of which matters Kan. It all comes down to GW trying to take ownership of a concept that was not theirs to begin with - everything that has happened since, the rallying cry from the sci-fi/fantasy literature fraternity, the reviews on Amazon, people changing their name on Twitter to 'Space Marine' etc have all come about as a result of that initial act.

 Ouze wrote:
So if you concur that they don't own the rights to the name "Space Marine", then why does all that unrelated stuff you keep throwing up matter?

Are you saying that other authors can use the phrase and concept of a Space Marine, unless it becomes popular enough that it might cost GW money in potentially lost sales?

I mean, so what if it showed up in related searches?

Also, do you have absolutely any evidence for these claims you keep making about how she or her friends colluded to game Amazon's search somehow or that she had a whole bunch of fake reviews? And is that even actually gaming, if she wrote a book about Space Marines and it showed up with other Space Marine related books? I mean, that sounds like "working as intended" to me.

Well if I wrote a book, I would expect (or at least hope) my followers wrote some positive reviews for me, Which looks to be the case when this book came out.....a while ago. some of those reviews over a year old, and talk about following her live journal. So you should expect to see those from an indie author or fan fictional writer. Though there is one that hit the nail on the head with his "returned" review. But nothing I see shows that her or her fans/friends could make sure that Black Library books would show up as well.

as for the customers who bought also bought section: mine shows everything from mageknight to horus heresy games, other MCA hogarth materials, etc. So after a year of the book being published your saying that when you looked it says nothing but other black library books? possible. which could also explain why the C/D from Games workshop whos legal probably check these things. But I doubt it was socially engineered. Looking at the few reviews, I doubt it sold that many copies. Could be one buyer (likely the "returned" reviewer) made a large purchase of black library novels and it popped up. Heck my amazon.com account still suggests anime when I havent bought one from them in almost a decade.

My wife intentionally looks for messed-up stuff on Amazon when I leave it up on my PC so later I have an annoying "surprise" when I go on Amazon to look for something.

She continues to find this hilarious.

well from the 20% that I was allotted to read for free, Its essentially a Starship Troopers furfanfic (the whole team kitty garbage) instead of bugs she has crabs and instead of skinnies she's got the preying mantis thing. They have power armor, but so does the mobile infantry in the actual Starship Troopers book. It reads like a bad movie script or someones Roleplay description in an MMO more than an actual novel, It was pretty painful to read. She mentions in the articles posted how she's a fan of Heimlein's work, and its pretty obvious.

Kan did hit the nail on the head I think when it comes to what seems to have happened: at some point a Black library reader bought this book and it started showing up with the other novels. This probably sparked the Cease and Disist order with GW legal just seeing someones crappy instant publish book being associated with their stuff. Without reading any context (because they don't get paid for that) they send out the pregenerated email, insert the names and boom...instant fiasco.

I don't agree with Kan in that this was some sort of clever social engineering experiment (I don't feel the author is that clever by any means, she would have written a better story if that was the case), It just happened and she tried to get the mess sorted out, felt hopeless and went public with her frustration. Being the gamers we are (generally hating on GW for its IP bullying these past few years) ate that up and it went viral in a matter of hours. Add that more than a few of her die hard fans proabably waved it in front of the face of a few key figures in the writing community that go "oh hell naw!" and you got a media mess.

Of course GW or Amazon has already put her book back on kindle, so It seems the message of the day is they will back down if you flex back at them.

Now we just need more people to actually do that instead of backing down when they shouldn't and they might get to be respectable again.

 Kanluwen wrote:


As I said earlier, the book's Amazon page was full of fake reviews heralding the book as being the "next Starship Troopers" and it kept showing up in the same search results as "Games Workshop" or "Black Library" prior to this whole debacle starting.

That would suggest she's trying to tie it to Starship Troopers and not Warhammer then.

It's awfully convenient and I'm inclined to think the worst for this particular situation--especially considering that it is not really a state secret that Games Workshop aggressively defends what they consider to be their "property" and would likely have no good will engendered towards them if they started a program where they had vans filled with puppies to be given away for free to children all over the world.

Two points. It isn't their property, so however much you try to justify their aggressive attempts to protect it, it's entirely their fault that they Kay claims to things they don't own. The sooner GW stop this nonsense the more credible your attempts to rationalise their need to 'defend their copyrights' will be.

Secondly, you again refer to their aggression not being a 'state secret'. They are still a niche company and the majority of people are only vaguely acquainted with them at most, and most won't know a thing about their legal activities, many of their customers won't know much of even a 'high profile' case like the Chapterhouse one that has been going two years now.

GW just isn't as big or culturally significant as people want to think, it's barely on the radar of most people, you just don't see that being inside the hobby. How many people play M:tG? Outside those I game with, hardly anyone I know who isn't into SF/ Fantasy has even heard if them. Somethibg with real cultural impact like D&D is only recognised in stereotypical terms; people who dress up as wizards and rolling dice.

How many threads have there been where gamers have described their girlfriends as not knowing anything of the hobby and thinking its just funny that they paint little toy men? No one questions when they show no awareness or any exposure to the hobby. Yet in this thread, a woman writing a book is supposed to know that Space Marines are obviously linked to GW more than anything else, to know that GW claim to own them when they don't, and that GW aggressively defend copyrights on things they don't own.

Funny read.

I hope GW loses this and it proves to be the spark that ignites a wildfire. Such a generic term should not be copyrighted. It could not even be defended on the "confusion" means, as more people would associate Space Marines with Starcraft than with W40K.

Oh, and I just tipped the author 5 USD, simply because I can. It doesn't matter for me if that was a publicity stunt, I like such stories were the little guy stands up to the big bully.

This train has hit the BBC now.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-21380003

I just saw that story appear on the BBC News app for the iPhone.

 Mr. Burning wrote:
This train has hit the BBC now.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-21380003

gak just got real.

EDIT: Just noticed BBC are getting their dates wrong. It was December 2012, not 2011.

 Grimtuff wrote:

 Mr. Burning wrote:
This train has hit the BBC now.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-21380003

gak just got real.

EDIT: Just noticed BBC are getting their dates wrong. It was December 2012, not 2011.

I get a kick out of this:

A spokesman for Games Workshop said it had a "blanket policy" of not talking to the media and had no comment to make about the row or its trademark claim.

Regarding the listing being back on Amazon for this - the question ends up being why? Did Amazon feel the heat from other independent writers and want to demonstrate some level of support that they would get from a real publisher (that would be the bare minimum appearance of a spine...you know, sort of like a cuttlefish)? Did GW relent?

In either case, the author still needs to follow up and seek a declaratory judgement in order to avoid GW attempting to sue in a far flung jurisdiction at a later date.

A spokesman for Games Workshop said it had a "blanket policy" of not talking to the media and had no comment to make about the row or its trademark claim.

That's a 'no' to my previous query then. I really don't that's the best way to handle negative publicity myself.

 Sean_OBrien wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:

 Mr. Burning wrote:
This train has hit the BBC now.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-21380003

gak just got real.

EDIT: Just noticed BBC are getting their dates wrong. It was December 2012, not 2011.

I get a kick out of this:

A spokesman for Games Workshop said it had a "blanket policy" of not talking to the media and had no comment to make about the row or its trademark claim.

Regarding the listing being back on Amazon for this - the question ends up being why? Did Amazon feel the heat from other independent writers and want to demonstrate some level of support that they would get from a real publisher (that would be the bare minimum appearance of a spine...you know, sort of like a cuttlefish)? Did GW relent?

In either case, the author still needs to follow up and seek a declaratory judgement in order to avoid GW attempting to sue in a far flung jurisdiction at a later date.

Looking at her blog it looks like she and the EFF are talking.

Just saw the BBC article, it's awesome how much attention this is getting.

Paitryn wrote:

 Rainbow Dash wrote:
if she was I don't think she would have picked something rather obscure, but something everyone knows, like star wars
you leech on something hugely successful and something that's a household name, not a niche thing that a lot of people don't even know

Spots the Stormtrooper would have been a better move in this case, as Stormtrooper generally refers to First out Marines (storming the beach and all) and can be generic enough to get away with it. Though Lucasfilm would probably let her walk away with it knowing her ebook would never garner that much attention (reading the small bit I did, Its pretty aweful, and yes a ripoff of Starship Troopers, insert Bugs instead of Crabs at every mention and the protagonist is a horrible mary sue, its more or less decent fanfic at best.)

But just because her book is bad, doesnt mean GW gets to unleash the lawdogs on her for using the title. (though I wouldn't blame the Heimlien estate if they did. but while they are at it, go ahead and sue GW for the power armor ripoff) I find it disheartening that someone has the chutzpah to go around with C/D's for trademarks of IPs they have been ripping off for decades. Space marine? not their concept. Power Armor? nope. Dystopian future filled with xenophobic racists? LOL star wars actually beat them to that one! Though I do believe a future built in with ancient gothic architecture is one that belongs to them. Even most of battlefleet gothic reminded me of the battlecruiser from aliens.

I wonder if GW forgot they are just the big fish in a small pond. Get into the mainstream media, and the public goes "games...Who??? Woah does blizzard know they are ripping them off?"

GW has claimed a trademark to the word mark "Stormtrooper" and actually sought to enforce it in a lawsuit, not just a C&D or a DMCA takedown notification. And "Stormtrooper" is not the only such term allegedly trademarked by GW, there is a long, long list.

 Howard A Treesong wrote:

A spokesman for Games Workshop said it had a "blanket policy" of not talking to the media and had no comment to make about the row or its trademark claim.

That's a 'no' to my previous query then. I really don't that's the best way to handle negative publicity myself.

Or positive publicity as a blanket policy would seem to indicate - they just choose not to talk to the media at all...

For those who would like to read a rather detailed analysis of the issue at hand, AAron Sanders Law has written up an article covering the case law and various aspects which would come into play (both to where it is now and in the future should a suit actually materialize out of it).

http://www.aaronsanderslaw.com/blog/space-amazons-space-marines-and-the-non-existant-trademark-takedown-notification

If I remember right, Lego sued Megablok last year on the basis Megablok has copied Lego's brick design. It got thrown out of court on the basis you cannot copyright a brick i.e something which has been around a long time.

I suspect the same may happen to G.W and they are just trying it on.

Also just read the BBC article. Could this be a turning point for GW? There are plenty of bigger players out there than GW and it could force them to wade into the argument. As much as they have the right to protect their IP they do need to roll their neck in abit.

You certainly can patent the engineering design of an innovative type of brick, and LEGO did so with their brick design.

However the patents expired, allowing the design concept to be copied by other companies. Hence Megabloks, and other similar products.

I don't now if LEGO sued Megabloks for anything.

 Wolfstan wrote:
Also just read the BBC article. Could this be a turning point for GW? There are plenty of bigger players out there than GW and it could force them to wade into the argument. As much as they have the right to protect their IP they do need to roll their neck in abit.

Unless it hits them in the pocket, and hits them hard, I doub't GW will change their current course.

The CHS case could be forcing them to be even more zealous in their protection of their IP.

 Pacific wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Ouze wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
It's why I am firmly of the belief that the author was looking for her 15 minutes of fame.

Honest question - do you believe that Games Workshop is the only party that has the right to use the name "Space Marine" in literature?

Of course not, but I think this instance is a bit more complex than simply "GW went after this poor poor woman for using Space Marine in the title of her 'book'."

As I said earlier, the book's Amazon page was full of fake reviews heralding the book as being the "next Starship Troopers" and it kept showing up in the same search results as "Games Workshop" or "Black Library" prior to this whole debacle starting.
Some keep saying this is a result of Amazon's search engine, but it's not like I was searching for "Space Marine" where it would make sense now is it? Someone--I don't know whether it was the author, her friends, or just some jokers on the Internets--kept plugging the search engine so that "Spots the Space Marine" was showing up in searches for GW material on Amazon. That's why I made my remark that the author is looking for her 15 minutes of fame. It's a self-published serialization of her "novel" that she wrote on her LiveJournal years ago. If this whole debacle did not happen, she would just be another self-published "author" who sells maybe one or two of her books a year.
But now with this happening? She's got all these people rallying behind her, wanting to buy the book, etc.

It's awfully convenient and I'm inclined to think the worst for this particular situation--especially considering that it is not really a state secret that Games Workshop aggressively defends what they consider to be their "property" and would likely have no good will engendered towards them if they started a program where they had vans filled with puppies to be given away for free to children all over the world.

None of which matters Kan. It all comes down to GW trying to take ownership of a concept that was not theirs to begin with - everything that has happened since, the rallying cry from the sci-fi/fantasy literature fraternity, the reviews on Amazon, people changing their name on Twitter to 'Space Marine' etc have all come about as a result of that initial act.

@Kan - Actually, Games Workshop's policy of media silence kinda makes it a huge unmoving target. Extremely dangerous move in the age of the internet, when the burden of proof usually lies on the accused rather than on the accuser.

@Pacific, Ouze -Yep, neither is GW claiming to hold the trademark to the "Space Marine" CONCEPT. Amazon didn't unlist Spots because it portrays some future soldier fighting a war in outer space, Actually, we know nothing of GW's claim other than Hogarth's word on it and the accompanying internet rage.

HuffPost picked it up now..

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2013/02/08/games-workshop-space-marines_n_2646002.html?utm_hp_ref=uk

The lemings are running GW straight off of the proverbial cliff.