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So I said something to someone over in the Showcase about how I suspected I was in the minority on my feelings towards Space Marines in camo, and now I'm wondering how the community at large feels, and thought I would get some numbers together.

Argument for camouflage: The bright colors and giant banners look a little silly, and makes them look less like a real army. In the future, soldiers will get more advanced tactics, not less. It makes absolutely ZERO sense for an army to go to war with a fortune in hi-tech equipment, plus soldiers who represent decades' worth of time and money invested in training, and NOT take a precaution as reasonable as camouflage to protect their investments. It's absolutely stupid to go into a war where your enemy (usually) has long range guns and you've painted yourself in bright, shiny, "shoot-me!" colors. Camouflage all the way.

Argument against camouflage: The Space Marines are supposed to represent a heraldric, elite-warrior feel that harkens back to such groups throughout history. (Chivalric knights, samurai, etc.) Camouflage defeats the bold feel that this theme is supposed to have. In addition, the bright colors they wear are INTENDED to make them a target. The attention they draw is at least as important as the damage they do, since it pulls enemy fire away from far more vulnerable targets (like Guardsmen, who will be drawing less attention since they SHOULD be wearing camo) and onto those with a better chance of surviving it. Camouflage no way!

Scouts, by the way, are an exception to this. I think even the hard-line heraldric extremists would concede that scouts can wear camouflage.

Not a hard line extremist but.... HATE SCOUTS!!!

Frankly I'm very old school and don’t even think that marines should go without helmets, let alone prance about in string vests.
They are the faceless implacable will of the Emperor, warrior monks who punish the impure, they don’t hide, sneak, evade or pick flowers to stick in their hair so that they can hide in the Daisy’s! The brighter the armour the further away you can see your cleansing coming giving you time to pray etc etc etc….

Of course I lose a lot of games….

Space Marines are close-ranged, terror force. They are not an army in our conventional sense.

Agreed. They are a shock and terror speartip unit. They carry banners on their backpacks that make some of them 20 feet tall, for crap's sake!

Way more often then not, they will be dropping in via pods or crashing into the enemy line. Neither approach requires much sneakiness or waiting until the enemy looks the other way.

They're shock troops. A goodly number of them launch themselves into melee combat via jet packs with a chainsaw in one hand and a fething huge pistol in the other. Some of them ride wolves into battle. Some of them are shot directly out of space in a rocket-equipped hollow bullet.

You think these people understand the finer points of camouflage?

Right, I'd agree with both of the OPs arguments, which is one of the reasons I said "maybe".

Space marines are for showing up in drop pods out of nowhere and slaughtering everything. Bright colors and ease of recognition are paramount to the overall effect of them being a fast response terror weapon.

That said, that's not the ONLY thing that space marines do. Sometimes they infiltrate, rather than barge in the front door with orbitally-deployed land raiders. It is precisely because they're not only conspicuous all the time that camo makes sense. I mean, why would they bother giving scouts camo cloaks?

As best I can figure, it goes like this - space marines have brightly-colored heraldric armor that they either swap for camo armor, or they put camoflage over their armor in those circumstances when they need stealth, and then go back to normal for everyday use.

As such, you could easily have a camo space marine army and call it imperial fists, because the missions they happen to be on require camo, and so they've altered their appearance so as not to be bright yellow for those particular missions. Rest assured, they've got yellow underneath there still (or whatever).

Plus, there are some marine chapters which do exist solely for stealth, like the mantis warriors, etc. There is a history of camo marines after all:



Here you will note that 6 of the 22 models have some sort of camoflage on them. Whether it's bright armor that's been camo-ed, or dedicated camo chapters I couldn't say, but there is a history.

Well, when you wear armor that is nearly impervious to all physical damage, you don't need camouflage. In the military, we wear it because we are vulnerable to small arms fire. Sure, I wear my body armor, but that sure won't stop a round intended for my face, or my other exposed areas. The day that I don't have to worry about indirect attack(mortars, artillery), small arms fire(rifles, pistols, machine guns, etc), and light anti tank weapons, I'll start wearing bright colors to let everyone know where I am, and that I'm ready to fight. Also, they aren't worried about stealth, those that are get a camouflage of some type. When I set up an ambush, or move to flank an opponent I don't want him seeing me before I can launch an attack, so I use the most covered and concealed route, in combination with my camo, so he can't kill me before I get there. I don't think space marines care about crap like that, for the most part.

LOL your point is well taken. It is one of the reasons I came to like the Dark Angels. I too found it hard to believe these high-tech warriors would go out in neon colored uniforms especially when there are man-portable plasma throwers, meltaguns and lascannons that people could point at you.

Now to the other side of the arguement, if technically they have made stealth near impossible, there is no problem with going back to 18th century colors to identify yourself.

I feel like in a fictional universe like Warhammer 40k's one must have a willing suspension of disbelief. The universe does not seek to be realistic; in stead it seeks to portray over the top characters and organizations in a very dramatic fashion.

The Space Marines in particular are a very proud group of warriors. They see themselves as the absolute best. Therefore, they do not need camoflage. Their bright colors only further display their attitude that they are the best. They march forward like a moving siege wall. In this case camoflage only serves to show that you need superior tactics and trickery to overcome the foe. The Space Marines not only do not need that, they do not want it. Therefore they march forward boldly in their bright colors, willing to challenge any who dare to cross their path.

DAaddict wrote: if technically they have made stealth near impossible

They haven't, cf. alpha legion.

Firehead wrote:I don't think space marines care about crap like that, for the most part.

They are resistant, but not immune to small arms fire. Plus, what happens when an entire regiment of these goes traitor?



Drop podding into that is a one-way ticket to a chapter completely wiped out.

 Ailaros wrote:


Plus, what happens when an entire regiment of these goes traitor?

Nuke it from orbit.

Only way to be sure.....

 Firehead158 wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:


Plus, what happens when an entire regiment of these goes traitor?

Nuke it from orbit.

It's the only way to be sure.

Well, what chapter are we talking?

If you are a stealth oriented Chapter, or you like long range combat (where camo could become slightly useful. Most camo is made to work at 300+ meters), then it could help

Otherwise, no. They have no real use for it, since they are so close to the enemy that it's useless. Maybe Scouts, but not true Marines. That, and a lot of Chapter colors relate to their history or pride. Like Deathwing, white isn't the greatest camo but it has a pride behind it. That, and their armor is so strong against any lesser foe that they don't need to hide (and hiding a 8 foot, 2 ton super human is harder than it seems) because they are near impervious. Against an enemy with powerful enough weapons, most likely they have a high enough tech to be able to tell where the Marines are anyway.

On the Basilisk thing, they most likely would just kill it from orbit or literally drop right on top of them so the guns can't fire at them. Remember, Space Marines don't think like a logical military strategist would think hahahahahaha

But, if you want to paint your chapter in Camo, then go ahead! That's the beauty of this, if your chapter wears camo then they wear camo and no one can argue against you. If they wear bright pink and neon green, then that's what they wear and no one can argue. If you like Camo, may I suggest looking up the Reasonable Marines?

Space Marines have about as much use for camouflage as the average SWAT team. Their goal is to crash the gates, get real close, and destroy the enemy. It works fairly well considering their near immunity to small arms fire.

When you are dealing with Space Marines (especially in an orbital sense) You are dealing with Blitzkrieg on the grandest scale ever devised. They identify what is a direct threat to their advance and destroy it through shock or air/space power, and then close with and destroy whats left. Artillery doesnt do you a whole lot of good when your enemy lands 500m behind your gunline, or on your HQ.

If there was a situation where they needed it though, being pragmatists, im sure SM would use it. In such as an Ambush or infiltration ops during a siege etc.

Besides stealth is 90% confidence anyway.

Firehead wrote:Nuke it from orbit.

So, they're going to run and hide on a space ship like sissies rather than put on camo and do their job?

Doesn't sound very space marine like to me.

Plus, you could ALWAYS nuke ANYTHING from orbit, regardless of the color of the space marine armor, so that's not really an argument in favor of brightly colored marines.

Lightcavalier wrote:Besides stealth is 90% confidence anyway.

Don't worry, this ship is completely invisible on the water. The captain very much believes it so, so I'll trust his judgement.

Remember too that Marines are often up against Xenos as opponents, and their eyes may well work differently from human eyes

so seeing different wavelengths of light, and interepreting what they see differently.

Camo that works on Orcs may be obvious to Eldar, Patterns needed to decieve Eldar eyes may make a marine more conspicuous to Tyranid eyes

And that's before you add in technology & psychic powers to the mix

And as an armoured spearhead (often working ahead of the Guard) it may be best to be bright an obvious to human eyes to reduce the likelyhood of friendly fire casualties which have been pretty commonplace in recent conflicts (especially from air strikes) even without savage hand to hand combat going on

Not sure if this has been mentioned yet, but it bears pointing out that what we think of camouflage... that is, a uniform colored to match the prevailing terrain of the theater of combat operations, is entirely based on being seen (or not seen) by human eyeballs. Modern uniforms have some IR-dampening effects (which goes away after the 3rd or 4th time through the washing machine) to foil *some* electronic sensory equipment, but not all (only effective against IR, utterly useless against laser, barometric, UV, low-lying radar, etc).

A Space Marine is a 7 foot tall, five hundred pound guy with a nuclear reactor on his back, covered in about five hundred pounds (or more) of heavy armor. This guy shows up to auspex systems on the next planet. Unless he's fighting people who think a digital watch is the height of technology, his combat hardware is going to give him away to even the most basic of sensor equipment.


ETA: Lol, oops... basically supporting what OrlandotheTechnicoloured said up there.

Allow me to answer with a quote from Rogal Dorn which I think sums the position up nicely...
"Do not ask me to approach the battle meekly, to creep through the shadows, or to quietly slip on my foes in the dark. I am Rogal Dorn, Imperial Fist, Space Marine, Emperor's Champion. Let my enemies cower at my advance and tremble at the sight of me."

 Lightcavalier wrote:

Besides stealth is 90% confidence anyway.

What's the other 10%, a good pose?

Nah nah you can't see me.

bang

you missed

I got you

No, I'm invisible

there's a hole in your chest, there's blood all down your front

[gurgle] no there isn't

see, you're falling over

no I'm not, my pose of invincibility has saved me once again

thwump

 Ailaros wrote:


Don't worry, this ship is completely invisible on the water. The captain very much believes it so, so I'll trust his judgement.

The Captain would have believed no such thing. Dazzle Cam wasn't supposed to make the ship invisible. It was supposed to make it harder to identify the ship and to tell how far away it was and which way it was going.

 Ailaros wrote:



Drop podding into that is a one-way ticket to a chapter completely wiped out.

Those guns have a very restrictive minimum range. Drop pods would be an excellent way to destroy that entire regiment with only their fixed heavy bolters being able to do anything. Medusas would be scarier.

To the OP, no. If I'm riding a flaming meteor into your rear ranks, teleporting in with atomic hammers, flying in with two rockets on my back, or driving in a APV, what on earth would camo do for me?! Space Marines are surgical assault troops. They come in at point blank, shoot and chop you to bits, decapitate leaders and blunt charges, and then pull out and wait for the next moment to land another crippling blow. They are truly MARINES: get off the boat, kick your teeth in, smash your face, and get out. At their chosen method of combat, camo is irrelevant. The only people who need it are the scouting units that get an eye on a target when orbital and sensors just isn't enough, and they have it. Bright Blue and Blood Red are all the camo you need as a Warrior of the Emperor.

cadbren wrote:

What's the other 10%, a good pose?

Funny enough, I heard that Russian special forces are trained in how to stand in such a way as to both minimize and break up their profile. Supposedly, they look really weird when they're doing it. I've got no way to verify if that's true or not, just thought it was interesting.

Mine do (well, did).

They are not part of the "shock and/or wet yourself laughing" brigade. They also aren't crusading religious looney space knights.

They are sociopathic powered armour enforcers of policy. Not doctrine and ritual enforcers.

For me its the difference between parade dress armour and campaign dress armour. I paint my marines in the parade dress armour because I find them more interesting than campaign dress.

Voting if marines should use camo is all based on the chapter. There is old GW canon on both sides. Corax always taught his sons to strike from the shadows, to instill terror into their enemies and then melt away into the background. Where as Rogal Dorn stated that only a coward hides, and a real warrior of the emperor stands out against his foes, so he commanded his sons paint their armor yellow, so they could be seen by all.

There are a thousand chapters in the imperium, with all manner of warfighting styles. It all depends on what YOU want to do

Camouflage is the colour of fear... I have no need to hide from my foes... I have no fear of death. My colours I wear openly, they proclaim louder than any words, "I am proud to live - I am proud to die" - Carab Culln of the Red Scorpions

The uniforms of the Imperial Guard are camouflaged in order to protect their wearers by hiding them from sight.

The principle is that what the enemy cannot see he cannot kill. This is not the way of the Adeptus Astartes. A Space Marine’s armour is bright with heraldry that proclaims his devotion to his Chapter and the beloved Emperor of Mankind. Our principle is that what the enemy can see, he will soon learn to fear… - Chaplain Aston, Fire Hawks 10th Company

Personally it depends on the situation, the Mantis Warriors, Raptors and Howling Griffons are examples of Chapters that have adopted Camo schemes for certain campaigns.

It's all about the chapter really. Most marines don't use camo, some do. Raven guard and Raptors come to mind as the best of the best for this.

Should they? No.

Could they? Sure.

If I were flying a ground attack aircraft I would love my targets to wear brightly colored uniforms and paint their vehicles in radical colors.

Victory is not always assured and despite their blitz tactics, space marines do come under air attack so my answer is definitely yes, it would do them more good than harm to break up the outline a little bit.