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DC arent deepstriking, or if they are its from a stormraven. No BA player runs DC with bolters anyways. That you assume they would have jump packs means you obv havent played many BA players.

20 DC just walk the field. Sure, you can kill them, but 20 DC is 450 points. You can easily run 2+ units of that or run 2x stormravens with 10 man units with reclusiarchs. DC are 5 attacks on the charge WS5 S5 and are one of the most cost effective assault units in 6th. Simply they get so many attacks they will wipe ranks of guardsmen at a time even with a 4++ and at reduced strength. Because of wound allocation in 6th that often means you will start losing special weapons and sergents unless your placement is perfect, which it probably wont be. Even with the usual Power axe/plasma gun combo you are still going to be losing once they hit melee.

DC are 0 to 1. That's why they're limitted to however many you can fit in a land raider. But you can still wreck face with 13 plus a reclesiarch.

He was calling a 2k list. Also, Astaroth also enables more DC iirc. Also a pretty decent HQ choice though hes pricy

In that case load up on Land Raiders with DC in them and wreck the rest of his army

MarkyMark wrote:
Furioso dreads will eat them up for breakfast, yea the sargs will probably have melta bombs if you do manage to kill those, just tie them up in combat, they cannot run away as they are fearless evn though they cannot hurt it

The problem with all these assault and win because its guard strategies, is that it will never get there the second that furioso drops near me I'm unloading lascannons, missiles, and meltas into it, if he's flying in by raven, then it will be turn 3 at earliest, gives a lot of time to be completely knocked out of the sky by vendettas

If you get into combat with it great, you still are in for a fight and its far from a sure thing especially if his opponent knows how to play and screens the unit with heavy cc troops or throw aways.

You will find waay more success in the shooting phase, relying on a junk dread to.carry the day is just asking for a "bring it down" or prescience spammed AT guns to ruin your day.

Be grateful its only 30 guys, bring your vindicators they will help beyond just killing a 30 man blob, with subpar point sinks ie. Dreads and DC

Not to mention he'll have prescience overwatch.

That many twin linked lascannons/plasma is bound to do some damage, if not kill a dread outright on the charge.

 zephoid wrote:
DC arent deepstriking, or if they are its from a stormraven. No BA player runs DC with bolters anyways. That you assume they would have jump packs means you obv havent played many BA players.

20 DC just walk the field. Sure, you can kill them, but 20 DC is 450 points. You can easily run 2+ units of that or run 2x stormravens with 10 man units with reclusiarchs. DC are 5 attacks on the charge WS5 S5 and are one of the most cost effective assault units in 6th. Simply they get so many attacks they will wipe ranks of guardsmen at a time even with a 4++ and at reduced strength. Because of wound allocation in 6th that often means you will start losing special weapons and sergents unless your placement is perfect, which it probably wont be. Even with the usual Power axe/plasma gun combo you are still going to be losing once they hit melee.

Lol you obviously don't know how to play BA....your right nobody uses jump packs, they use drop pods an actual strategic tool, and only bad players take dc with bp/ccw, relentless rapid fire and a charge equals far more.dmg, hit the math up so your alittle more prepared

Foot slog 400+ pts unit without an invulnerable save...I mean who is even listening to this guy anymore? One leman Russ and some lascannons and you lose 100-200 pts of that squad easy every turn, you'll be lucky to reach the enemy with 5 dc, I'd love to see 5 dc take out 50 4++ guard with fnp, getting hit by Azreal and 15 power axe attacks a turn.

There's a reason this combo is winning tournaments and Deathcompany (non scoring point sinks, that never hit cc....) aren't.....

I don't really care about the rest of the argument, but trading an S5 attack for an S4 AP5 attack doesn't feel as though it'd be worth it that often.

You can fight fire with fire to see how your opponent likes it. Take Azreal and Dante and put them in a large footslogging DC. Add in a 5 man DA tactical squad and have fun. This way you can hit and run out of assault. With the size of both units, it will be a bit hard to stay out of each others range. I personally prefer bolters, but your mileage may vary.

Also, how are IG getting FnP? They dont benefit from Azreal's Warlord trait? This combo is barely a month old, how is it already winning tourneys?

This is a pie-plate magnet, pure and simple. You really want to beat it, with a pure BA list? suck it up and pie-plate the snot out of him. Doing the same thing (IG allies) only justifies what your calling 'stinky cheese'.

Fast Vindicators, Dev squads with PCs and MLs, and yes, whirlwinds are your best choice. You can't ignore it if it is camping your middle with plasma and LC fire, you have to remove it one way or another. It all depends if there are bikers or terminators and other power armored goons running around that deserve more attention, because most of the stuff to kill the blob isn't as effective against power armor or better.

Dreads with Assault cannons, Terminators with Cyclone and Assault cannons, and Baal Preds (with flamers and Assault Cannons) can be a back-up if you don't want the Dev, Vindy, or WW options.

You know what else is nice about pie-plates? They kill everything underthem (or force saves). No hiding stuff with alblative wounds of lasgunners.

If you really want to be petty and totally gear your list for killing this unit, load up on flamers as well. Assault squads with flamers and hand flamers can dance around this unit and do alot of damage to it.

I will point out this is not cheese, it just shows that apparently you do not face hoard very often. So what if it has 4++ saves? Will take 2 turns instead of 1 turn of focused fire to kill. It is the same as dealing with a blob behind a ADL with a Camo-cloak Lord Commissar giving the whole unit Stealth with 3+ cover saves. People have been throwing Libbies in Blobs for awhile too to give the whole unit ATSKNF. It is just another aspect of the game now. Just be lucky he doesn't have 3 LRBTs and 3 Vendettas squadroned up to go with it with Creed in the CCS outflanking the LRBT squad... though you have to start asking who is Allied with who at that point.

I still think Null Zone is the ticket...

A 4+ that has to be rerolled on successful saves (25%) is inferior to a 5+ (33%). You'd be turning his 200p special character into a liability each turn.

Then, you could pie plate him. Then you could flame him or nail him with assault squads or whatever else you wanted to do.

 TedNugent wrote:
I still think Null Zone is the ticket...

A 4+ that has to be rerolled on successful saves (25%) is inferior to a 5+ (33%). You'd be turning his 200p special character into a liability each turn.

Then, you could pie plate him. Then you could flame him or nail him with assault squads or whatever else you wanted to do.

Then they can chose to take the 5 plus save?

Barrage kills under pie plates, not direct fire pie plates, unless I've missed the rule somewhere: direct fire templates you still utilize normal casualty removal rules.

Shooting a fearless blob squad with a 4+ inv save takes a lot of shooting and can be a real borefest in an assault. I've run Azreal + 50 IG and it's not easy to shoot down nor is it really easy to kill off in assault.

Which is why I advised to have your opponent play against something similar. Except I think the DC/Dante/Azreal combo will work better than the IG/Azreal combo.

You should be able to reliably take down a Sergeant a turn using 10 sniper scouts from their precision shots (and a couple of normal men besides). This opens the way for furioso dreads or challenging characters in Termie armour with fists.

 Sarigar wrote:
You can fight fire with fire to see how your opponent likes it. Take Azreal and Dante and put them in a large footslogging DC. Add in a 5 man DA tactical squad and have fun. This way you can hit and run out of assault. With the size of both units, it will be a bit hard to stay out of each others range. I personally prefer bolters, but your mileage may vary.

Also, how are IG getting FnP? They dont benefit from Azreal's Warlord trait? This combo is barely a month old, how is it already winning tourneys?

I was wrong on the the fnp front, but they most definitely can gain the warlord trait of a battlebrother ally, So Azreal is free to give furious charge or coldblooded

Blktom is completely right, people are putting way to much pointless ineffective effort into killing them, templates plain and simple, or waste all your points on bad dc and watch them crumble before firepower without doing anythinof noteg

Sounds like the same old story with the BA. Trying to figure out how to compete with upper tier stratagems with a bottom tier codex. The whirlwind doesn't sound so crazy anymore, huh?

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
I don't really care about the rest of the argument, but trading an S5 attack for an S4 AP5 attack doesn't feel as though it'd be worth it that often.[/quot

So your saying that first turn you charge the enemy? Or second, turn? How many Bolter shots can you throw in that period instead of just walking around? You lose one atk in cc, but gain many more Bolter rounds over the course of a game with double the range of your pistols, double the over watch shots, and against targets with 5+ double the kills? Very easy choice imo for efficiency compared to one attack, in an edition geared towards ranged attrition


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Martel732 wrote:
Sounds like the same old story with the BA. Trying to figure out how to compete with upper tier stratagems with a bottom tier codex. The whirlwind doesn't sound so crazy anymore, huh?

Far from bottom tier in the right hands, they have tons of tools, and fnp spam is quite deadly , its just hurr durr spam dc , dreads, and mephiston killing all

Ally C:SM and drop LotD on them with heavy flamers?

Alliance with GKs, bring a Vindicare Assassin, shieldbreaker rounds on Azrael to break the invuln item... profit. No more Look Out, Sir! for him.

 Sarigar wrote:
Barrage kills under pie plates, not direct fire pie plates, unless I've missed the rule somewhere: direct fire templates you still utilize normal casualty removal rules.

Shooting a fearless blob squad with a 4+ inv save takes a lot of shooting and can be a real borefest in an assault. I've run Azreal + 50 IG and it's not easy to shoot down nor is it really easy to kill off in assault.

Which is why I advised to have your opponent play against something similar. Except I think the DC/Dante/Azreal combo will work better than the IG/Azreal combo.

Wait, so your advice on how to beat his Azrael IG blob is to bring an Azrael IG blob of your own?

Well that's the advice for Vendettas atm.

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:

 Sarigar wrote:
Barrage kills under pie plates, not direct fire pie plates, unless I've missed the rule somewhere: direct fire templates you still utilize normal casualty removal rules.

Shooting a fearless blob squad with a 4+ inv save takes a lot of shooting and can be a real borefest in an assault. I've run Azreal + 50 IG and it's not easy to shoot down nor is it really easy to kill off in assault.

Which is why I advised to have your opponent play against something similar. Except I think the DC/Dante/Azreal combo will work better than the IG/Azreal combo.

Wait, so your advice on how to beat his Azrael IG blob is to bring an Azrael IG blob of your own?

/thread.

Seriously, back to the OP. Just use the anti-horde component of your list on the blob. Just don't waste anything with AP or ignores cover on them.

Too lazy to read this whole thread at work but will give my suggestions on this. But essentially anything that can put in mass wounds on cheap is your friend. Here is some non armor solutions.

4x ML devestators x2-3
+ Priest
+ Tactical/sternguard etc can put down alot of hurt on that blob.

Or if you want to be insulting
Corbulo + Librarian + 8 Sternguad with combi-flamers in a droppod.
Corbulo for his 3+/2+FNP to absorb all the flashlights, librarian for sheild + w/e to absorb insane amount of fire while putting in the hurt.

Deathcompany with bolters + chap. Rapidfire+charge = alot of dead IG.




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*** a 20 man DC blob with AZ and a chap... that seems soo dirty and hilarious.

Azrael + IG blob is very costly unit with very low dammage output and very slow movement (dificulties with too many models and terrain). Simply ignore them. If you need to kill them (which you usually dont), just focus your infantry weapons on them. They are T3, its not a big deal to kill them, even with 4+ save...

But really, what can they do to you? You said 30-man blob? What do they have? 3 BS3 Lascanons? 3 power weapon sergeants? Please...

Oh, btw., for the cost of Azrael himself (215 I believe) you can buy anothe 30-man blob...

BS 3 lascannons generate 75% of the hits of BS 4. It's not the accuracy I'd worry about so much as how much they are paying to field these lascannons. And you are right, T3 is easy to spam wounds against. One of my all comers lists features a whirlwind and a dakka Baal just for units like this.

Yeah, the more I think about it the more I just want to ignore them. Yeah its a lot of mediocre fire power.

I love the idea of Astro and a bunch of DC, but that's just way to expensive and DC just isn't my style.

I'm just going to ignore him and deal with the real threats, and if my SR just happens to fly over them with no other targets......I'll take a few pop shots at them.

Just consider how much damage single regular ASM squad with flamers would do to this unit. I use those in my all comers lists as well frequently because they are good. Just usually not in the same lists as the whirlwinds and dakka Baals.

Martel732 wrote:
Just consider how much damage single regular ASM squad with flamers would do to this unit. I use those in my all comers lists as well frequently because they are good. Just usually not in the same lists as the whirlwinds and dakka Baals.

I hardly ever play flamers. I usually don't if I'm playing vindicators, but I'm so torn between vindys and dakka preds right now.

How does he get the +4 invonerable save? As far as I know it only affects models withing 6, not units. at least if we are talking about the same artefact. What more it will affect your models also in CC. Just get in there with feel no pain and have 3+/4++ and feel no pain.