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Orks are a bit of a mess right now anyhow. Many of their units don't work quite right with the current rules and others work to well.

I'd say 3 units in our codex are outright useless atm, 2-3 more are questionable if not useless.
We need a new one bad, getting tired of loota-parking lots to deal with most tactics because charging is dumb now. If i wanted a parking lot i woulda gone IG (though i gotta admit 60 lootas in a 2k game is HILARIOUS)

Old Zogwort cant even use 2 of his spells right now, which is dumb on all accounts since hes the "strongest weirdboy alive"
Flash Gitz are in the wrong slot to be useful, and since they cant take a dedicated transport to rectify the slot issue why would you ever take them? You'd use 2 heavy slots to get them anywhere, or they'd just die to sniper fire.
Kommandos have like no shootyness, they were designed to be a quick "knife in yo back" move to take something out then die, now they cant do that.

I'd say the biggest issue is point costs though. Orks are the numbers not the power, yet our stuff usually costs a whopping 10-20pts less than the MEQ or Necron equiv. Boyz are the only thing in our codex that follows that rule, everything else is too expensive for what it does(ok Kannons are awesome too)

there is also this to consider:

BRB Faq wrote:
"Q: Does a weapon that hits automatically, still hit automatically when making a Snap Shot? (p13)
A: Yes."

40k-noob wrote:
there is also this to consider:

BRB Faq wrote:
"Q: Does a weapon that hits automatically, still hit automatically when making a Snap Shot? (p13)
A: Yes."

Which is trumped by the FaQ about Zooming Flyers requiring snap shots to score a hit on zooming flyers.

40k-noob wrote:
there is also this to consider:

BRB Faq wrote:
"Q: Does a weapon that hits automatically, still hit automatically when making a Snap Shot? (p13)
A: Yes."

That doesn't really mean anything. Does a weapon that hits automatically still hit automatically when making snap shots? Yes. Can a weapon that his automatically make snap shots? According to every rule about it, No.

If it could make Snap Shots it would hit automatically, but it can't make Snap Shots because it does hit automatically.

 DeathReaper wrote:

40k-noob wrote:
there is also this to consider:

BRB Faq wrote:
"Q: Does a weapon that hits automatically, still hit automatically when making a Snap Shot? (p13)
A: Yes."

Which is trumped by the FaQ about Zooming Flyers requiring snap shots to score a hit on zooming flyers.

how is that?

The rules say that any shot made at zooming flyer/fmc is resolved as a snapshot.

so PSA is resolved as a snapshot

then FAQ aslo says that the flyer is still hit because the PSA, is resolved as snapshot but still hit automatically.

Because the FaQ says if it is not fired as a snap shot it can not hit a Zooming Flyers or Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures Therefore, any attacks that ...don’t roll to hit cannot target them.

The Wierdboy's PSA does not roll to hit, therefore it can not target a Zooming Flyer or SFMC.


FaQ for reference:
"Q: How do maelstroms, novas and beams – or indeed any weapon that doesn’t need to roll To Hit or hits automatically – interact with Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures? (p13)
A: Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures. Therefore, any attacks that use blast markers, templates, create a line of/area of effect or otherwise don’t roll to hit cannot target them. This includes weapons such as the Necron Doom Scythe’s death ray or the Deathstrike missile of the Imperial Guard, and psychic powers that follow the rule for maelstroms, beams, and novas."

 DeathReaper wrote:
Because the FaQ says if it is not fired as a snap shot it can not hit a Zooming Flyers or Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures Therefore, any attacks that ...don’t roll to hit cannot target them.

The Wierdboy's PSA does not roll to hit, therefore it can not target a Zooming Flyer or SFMC.


FaQ for reference:
"Q: How do maelstroms, novas and beams – or indeed any weapon that doesn’t need to roll To Hit or hits automatically – interact with Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures? (p13)
A: Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures. Therefore, any attacks that use blast markers, templates, create a line of/area of effect or otherwise don’t roll to hit cannot target them. This includes weapons such as the Necron Doom Scythe’s death ray or the Deathstrike missile of the Imperial Guard, and psychic powers that follow the rule for maelstroms, beams, and novas."

1. the wierdboy's PSA doesn't not roll to hit, it hits automatically
2.this FAQ does not address things that hit automatically only things that do not need to roll to hit it only mentions it in the question not the answer so the reference is invalid

3.(nothing to do with the quote) they would not have created an FAQ about snapshots and auto hits if you couldn't snapshot with an auto hitting weapon/power/ability

 A GumyBear wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Because the FaQ says if it is not fired as a snap shot it can not hit a Zooming Flyers or Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures Therefore, any attacks that ...don’t roll to hit cannot target them.

The Wierdboy's PSA does not roll to hit, therefore it can not target a Zooming Flyer or SFMC.


FaQ for reference:
"Q: How do maelstroms, novas and beams – or indeed any weapon that doesn’t need to roll To Hit or hits automatically – interact with Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures? (p13)
A: Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures. Therefore, any attacks that use blast markers, templates, create a line of/area of effect or otherwise don’t roll to hit cannot target them. This includes weapons such as the Necron Doom Scythe’s death ray or the Deathstrike missile of the Imperial Guard, and psychic powers that follow the rule for maelstroms, beams, and novas."

1. the wierdboy's PSA doesn't not roll to hit, it hits automatically
2.this FAQ does not address things that hit automatically only things that do not need to roll to hit it only mentions it in the question not the answer so the reference is invalid

You are incorrect on Point #2

You understand that "1. the wierdboy's PSA doesn't not roll to hit, it hits automatically" but you do not understand the effects of this implication.

You read the FaQ I quoted, you even underlined the relevant part. Specifically this part "Therefore, any attacks that use blast markers, templates, create a line of/area of effect or otherwise don’t roll to hit cannot target them."

any attacks that don’t roll to hit cannot target them.

Does the Wierdboy power roll to hit?

If not it can not target a Zooming Flyer...

DR, don't forget that the Question part is even more explicit:

FAQ wrote:How do maelstroms, novas and beams – or indeed any weapon that doesn’t need to roll To Hit or hits automatically – interact with Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures?

This pertains to any weapon which doesn't need to roll to hit or hits automatically. Which certainly includes Zzzap.

A: Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures

If a weapons can be snap shot it can hit a flier

If it can be snap shot the rest of it dosnt matter since the things described cannot snap shoot.

Q: Does a weapon that hits automatically, still hit automatically when making a Snap Shot? (p13)
A: Yes."

since the question was answered there must be something that hits automaticly and can snap shoot.
and if it can snap shoot it can hit a flier.

how is that?

The rules say that any shot made at zooming flyer/fmc is resolved as a snapshot.

so PSA is resolved as a snapshot

then FAQ aslo says that the flyer is still hit because the PSA, is resolved as snapshot but still hit automatically.


1. the wierdboy's PSA doesn't not roll to hit, it hits automatically
2.this FAQ does not address things that hit automatically only things that do not need to roll to hit it only mentions it in the question not the answer so the reference is invalid

3.(nothing to do with the quote) they would not have created an FAQ about snapshots and auto hits if you couldn't snapshot with an auto hitting weapon/power/ability





Automatically Appended Next Post:
A: Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Swooping
Flying Monstrous Creatures. Therefore, any attacks that use
blast markers, templates, create a line of/area of effect or
otherwise don’t roll to hit cannot target them.

Q. Which Weirdboy psychic power is a psychic shooting attack? (p37)
A. Frazzle and Zzap (though they include a few exceptions to
the normal shooting rules, as specified in their description).

So it is a shooting attack with a special exception to the rules.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
and psychic
powers that follow the rule for maelstroms, beams, and
novas.

so does ZZAP follow the rules for the above psychic powers?

Because it clearly states which psychic powers dont work against fliers.

I think ZZAP is a shooting attack that has the ork special rule that it hits anything in range but is still like a normal shooting attack.

ZZap is a shooting attack which automatically hits, and thus is forbidden from targeting a Zooming Flyer or Swooping FMC by the FAQ.

FAQ wrote:...or indeed any weapon that doesn’t need to roll To Hit or hits automatically...

The question about whether stuff that auto-hits still auto-hits on Snap Shots is a bit confusing, but would seem to allow Zzzap to auto-hit in other circumstances when it would normally have to Snap Shot; like being shot from an open-topped vehicle moving at Cruising Speed. But in the specific situation of those flyers, it doesn't get to target them at all.

 Mannahnin wrote:
ZZap is a shooting attack which automatically hits, and thus is forbidden from targeting a Zooming Flyer or Swooping FMC by the FAQ.

FAQ wrote:...or indeed any weapon that doesn’t need to roll To Hit or hits automatically...

The question about whether stuff that auto-hits still auto-hits on Snap Shots is a bit confusing, but would seem to allow Zzzap to auto-hit in other circumstances when it would normally have to Snap Shot; like being shot from an open-topped vehicle moving at Cruising Speed. But in the specific situation of those flyers, it doesn't get to target them at all.

Exactly. The first FAQ ruling basically answers the question of what happens if the Wierdboy has to fire snap shots (he's gone to ground, or regrouped that turn, etc)...does Zzap still auto-hit in that case? And the answer per the FAQ is yes.


But then the 2nd FAQ ruling specifically covers flyers, and that ruling says that flyers cannot be hit by weapons that don't need to roll to hit or hit automatically...which explicitly prohibits Zzap from hitting flyers.

2
Q: Can psychic shooting attacks be fired as Snap Shots (assuming
that the Psyker has enough Warp Charge available and requires a
roll to hit)? (p13)
A: Yes, but only in your own Shooting phase. This means that
psychic shooting attacks cannot be made when firing
Overwatch.


this is the secound point, it says you have to roll to hit, but the orks have a special rule that let them auto-hit. not dosnt roll but auto-hit. different from a nova and beam attack.

It's the same thing. If you automatically hit, you don't bother to roll, surely? And anyway, the FAQ specially mentions BOTH.

Seriously, look at the FAQ pertaining to this. It's pretty darn exhaustive. They're talking about EVERYthing that could possibly hit a model without firing a Snap Shot. Templates, blasts, lines, maelstroms, novas, powers and weapons which aren't Lines but work similarly (Death Ray), anything which creates an area of effect, anything which either doesn't need to hit or hits automatically, etc., etc.

FAQ wrote:Q: How do maelstroms, novas and beams – or indeed any weapon that doesn’t need to roll To Hit or hits automatically – interact with Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures? (p13)
A: Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures. Therefore, any attacks that use blast markers, templates, create a line of/area of effect or otherwise don’t roll to hit cannot target them. This includes weapons such as the Necron Doom Scythe’s death ray or the Deathstrike missile of the Imperial Guard, and psychic powers that follow the rule for maelstroms, beams, and novas.

3
Q: How do maelstroms, novas and beams – or indeed any weapon
that doesn’t need to roll To Hit or hits automatically – interact with
Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures? (p13)
A: Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Swooping
Flying Monstrous Creatures. Therefore, any attacks that use
blast markers, templates, create a line of/area of effect or
otherwise don’t roll to hit cannot target them. This includes
weapons such as the Necron Doom Scythe’s death ray or the
Deathstrike missile of the Imperial Guard, and psychic
powers that follow the rule for maelstroms, beams, and
novas.

So you have to answer the secound point first, does it count as a shooting attack that has a special rule that lets it auto hit. If that is a yes it can snap fire.


and psychic
powers that follow the rule for maelstroms, beams, and
novas.

are you saying that ZZAP is one of the three above listed powers. It clearly states which psychic powers dont work and ZZAP is not one of them.

Therefore, any attacks that use
blast markers, templates, create a line of/area of effect or
otherwise don’t roll to hit

It is not that it dosnt hit it has a special rule that auto-hits, different from not rolling at all.

So I may be right

Is ZZAP something that doesn’t need to roll To Hit or hits automatically?

Zzap is something which hits automatically. Therefore it is explcitly and specifically forbidden from targeting a Zooming Flyer or Swooping FMC.

stormboy take a chillpill or a drink then read what you've written slowly, yes we cant hit flyers but you dont have to keep arguing only to get it your way. You simply can't. Use that melta shot for something better! lootas be the thing for flyers anway

I may be wrong, whatever but the example they are using to tell me i am wrong contradics itself. Nothing can auto hit, but then it says explixitly which psychic attacks dont work..

It also says only snap shot can hit fliers, so the question of can you snap shoot ZZAP is valid since it has a special rule to let it always hit. Not the same as beam attacks or templates.

yak wrote
Exactly. The first FAQ ruling basically answers the question of what happens if the Wierdboy has to fire snap shots (he's gone to ground, or regrouped that turn, etc)...does Zzap still auto-hit in that case? And the answer per the FAQ is yes.


so YAk agrees the wierdboy can snap shoot.

A: Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Swooping
Flying Monstrous Creatures.

Therefore, any attacks that use
blast markers, templates, create a line of/area of effect or
otherwise don’t roll to hit cannot target them.

since they are not snap shots
but if it was a snap shot the always hit part wouldnt apply since it says snap shots hit fliers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It automaticly hits, not the same as dosnt roll to hit.

I don't see the basis for claiming its a snap shot... Other than you want it to be.

stormboy97 wrote:
It automatically hits, not the same as doesn't roll to hit.

Umm yea...

I am not even sure how to respond to this lack of logic.

Can you answer this simple question please

Is ZZAP something "that doesn't need to roll To Hit or hits automatically"?

Stormboy, come on, read the darn ruling again. "any weapon
that doesn’t need to roll To Hit or hits automatically". Hitting automatically doesn't save it. That's forbidden too.

: Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Swooping
Flying Monstrous Creatures. Therefore, any attacks that use
blast markers, templates, create a line of/area of effect or
otherwise don’t roll to hit cannot target them.

am i reading this wrong, really, it says only snap shots can hit fliers.

do you think the part where they describe blasts and all that means weapons that cant snap shoot?

focus on the part wear it says SNAP SHOTS HIT FLIERS then goes on to describe weapons that dont roll to hit and can not be snap shot

BUT WHAT IF THE zzap ATTACK CAN BE SNAP SHOT?

which as above all knowing YAK says it can, then it would be able to hit because it is a SNAP SHOT.
The rest is a description of types of weapons that can not snap shoot so cant hit fliers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DeathReaper wrote:

stormboy97 wrote:
It automatically hits, not the same as doesn't roll to hit.

Umm yea...

I am not even sure how to respond to this lack of logic.

Can you answer this simple question please

Is ZZAP something "that doesn't need to roll To Hit or hits automatically"?

hits automaticly

1. the wierdboy's PSA doesn't not roll to hit, it hits automatically
2.this FAQ does not address things that hit automatically only things that do not need to roll to hit it only mentions it in the question not the answer so the reference is invalid


Q. Which Weirdboy psychic power is a psychic shooting attack? (p37)
A. Frazzle and Zzap (though they include a few exceptions to
the normal shooting rules, as specified in their description).







Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
I don't see the basis for claiming its a snap shot... Other than you want it to be.

YAK said it was a snap shot, he is much better at rules than me. If i was clearly wrong i would not still be discussing it. I think my logic is sound.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mannahnin wrote:
Stormboy, come on, read the darn ruling again. "any weapon
that doesn’t need to roll To Hit or hits automatically". Hitting automatically doesn't save it. That's forbidden too.

unless it is a SNAP SHOT then it could hit fliers.

Please remember, Yak expressed his opinion very clearly that Zzzap can't hit Flyers.

 yakface wrote:

 Mannahnin wrote:
ZZap is a shooting attack which automatically hits, and thus is forbidden from targeting a Zooming Flyer or Swooping FMC by the FAQ.

FAQ wrote:...or indeed any weapon that doesn’t need to roll To Hit or hits automatically...

The question about whether stuff that auto-hits still auto-hits on Snap Shots is a bit confusing, but would seem to allow Zzzap to auto-hit in other circumstances when it would normally have to Snap Shot; like being shot from an open-topped vehicle moving at Cruising Speed. But in the specific situation of those flyers, it doesn't get to target them at all.

Exactly. The first FAQ ruling basically answers the question of what happens if the Wierdboy has to fire snap shots (he's gone to ground, or regrouped that turn, etc)...does Zzap still auto-hit in that case? And the answer per the FAQ is yes.

But then the 2nd FAQ ruling specifically covers flyers, and that ruling says that flyers cannot be hit by weapons that don't need to roll to hit or hit automatically...which explicitly prohibits Zzap from hitting flyers.

If, in other circumstances which only allow the Weirdboy to fire snap shots (Gone to Ground, in a vehicle moving Cruising Speed, rallied this turn, etc.) he uses the Zzzap, it still auto-hits. But the Flyer/FMC FAQ ruling goes further and is more detailed and specifically excludes every single kind of attack which automatically hits.

stormboy97 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

stormboy97 wrote:
It automatically hits, not the same as doesn't roll to hit.

Umm yea...

I am not even sure how to respond to this lack of logic.

Can you answer this simple question please

Is ZZAP something "that doesn't need to roll To Hit or hits automatically"?

hits automaticly

1. the wierdboy's PSA doesn't not roll to hit, it hits automatically
2.this FAQ does not address things that hit automatically only things that do not need to roll to hit it only mentions it in the question not the answer so the reference is invalid.

So ZZAP is something that "that doesn't need to roll To Hit or hits automatically" we agree. Good.

Therefore ZZAP is something that is included in this FaQ question:

"Q: How do maelstroms, novas and beams – or indeed any weapon that doesn’t need to roll To Hit or hits automatically – interact with Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures? (p13)"

I underlined the part that includes ZZAP, as ZZAP does not roll to hit, as it hits automatically.

phatonic wrote:
stormboy take a chillpill or a drink then read what you've written slowly, yes we cant hit flyers but you dont have to keep arguing only to get it your way. You simply can't. Use that melta shot for something better! lootas be the thing for flyers anway

Someone call for a "chill pill"??

Stormboy... I'm an avid ork player... the way the rules/FAQ are written for 6th edition, Zzapp cannot target FMC/Zooming flyers.

I wish it wasn't the case.

Q: How do maelstroms, novas and beams – or indeed any weapon
that doesn’t need to roll To Hit or hits automatically – interact with
Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures? (p13)
A: Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Swooping
Flying Monstrous Creatures. Therefore, any attacks that use
blast markers, templates, create a line of/area of effect or
otherwise don’t roll to hit cannot target them. This includes
weapons such as the Necron Doom Scythe’s death ray or the
Deathstrike missile of the Imperial Guard, and psychic
powers that follow the rule for maelstroms, beams, and
novas.

Yes i can read quite well thank you, i see what you are saying. Where they use the word automaticly in the question.

The answer describes that only snap shots hit fliers and then goes on to describe weapons that can not be snap shot.

Dont focus on the question, focus on the answer.

SNAP SHOTS hit fliers, it then describes what can not hit fliers since which therefore can not be snap shot.

BUT 2 other 3 if you count the ORK FAQ say ZZAP can be snap shot.

I may be wrong but my reasoning is right on this one.
Step back and just look at how it is written.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I bet dollars to donuts they did not even think about or remember wierdboys when they wrote this.

Yes it can be snap-shot (and still hits automatically).
But it is still forbidden from targeting a flyer (if it snap-shoots or not).

If the Wierdboy goes to ground, he must snap-shoot. The FAQ tells us it's possible and will still auto-hit.

Either way, targeting a flyer with an auto-hit ability is forbidden

stormboy97 wrote:
Q: How do maelstroms, novas and beams – or indeed any weapon
that doesn’t need to roll To Hit or hits automatically – interact with
Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures? (p13)
A: Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Swooping
Flying Monstrous Creatures. Therefore, any attacks that use
blast markers, templates, create a line of/area of effect or
otherwise don’t roll to hit cannot target them. This includes
weapons such as the Necron Doom Scythe’s death ray or the
Deathstrike missile of the Imperial Guard, and psychic
powers that follow the rule for maelstroms, beams, and
novas.

Yes i can read quite well thank you, i see what you are saying. Where they use the word automaticly in the question.

The answer describes that only snap shots hit fliers and then goes on to describe weapons that can not be snap shot.

Dont focus on the question, focus on the answer.

SNAP SHOTS hit fliers, it then describes what can not hit fliers since which therefore can not be snap shot.

BUT 2 other 3 if you count the ORK FAQ say ZZAP can be snap shot.

I may be wrong but my reasoning is right on this one.
Step back and just look at how it is written.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I bet dollars to donuts they did not even think about or remember wierdboys when they wrote this.

One question for you. Does an attack or power that hits automatically, roll to hit?