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Hi Dakka,
heres a bet rep from a game i had recently hope you enjoy and i appologies for it only being in text. forgot my camera :(

Can’t remember his whole list, but this was the jist of it:
1 x Stonehorn
3 x Mournfangs
30x ironguts
1x bruiser
1 x tyrant
1 x butcher

My list was:
1 x Vamp lord red fury, quick blood, heavy armour, night shroud, shield, sword of strife .
1 x Wright king bsb, war banner, shield, heavy armour.
40 x Skellies spears FC, flaming banner
20 x Ghouls
27 x Grave Guard FC
6 x Crypt horrors
5 x Cairn Wraiths, Banshee

We rolled for scenario got number 5 the one where you start 6” from the centre of the board.
Then we rolled to go first he got a 5 and I rolled……..a 6!!

Deployment:
So my layout went (from left to right) GG with wright, crypts, ghouls, skellies with lord, wraiths. His was Mournfangs, death star ironguts with all characters, Stonehorn.

T1: VC
I moved up all units so GG went to challenge his Mournfangs, ghouls and horrors for his Death star, skellies went for the Stonehorn, wraiths just floated about. Basically my plan was to draw the charge with my core and flank charge with my GG and Cairn wraiths, while the horrors waited to assist the ghouls.

Magic:
11:6
This was a fun one my lord being a humble vampire decided to cast GoN using 5 PD at the irongut Death star little did I know my opponent had a nasty surprise for me, in the form of a feedback scroll ok so I was thinking this isn’t going to be so bad….. Roll all 5 PD again 4 +5... Oh no armour saves and I didn’t put a ward on him thinking he would be fine in once he was in combat. He also had an item that if he was successful on the roll I had to choose another unit to take the spells damage so i chose the Mournfangs causing 2 wounds 

So great turn 1 lost my general straight up, now on to the crumbling


T1: Ogres
He declared charges with his entire army, they all made their charges, and he lost a mournfang due to dangerous terrain and has another put down to 2 wounds. Yay!!
Magic:
7:5
He cast tooth cracker on the skellies and got it off I failed to dispel by 2  and that was it for magic.

Combat:
GG vs. Mournfangs: Mournfangs kill 6 in combat, 3 form impact hits and 2 from TS. Wight king goes first does 1 wound, GG hit back with 6 wounds, he saves 2 wounds wound. I lose by 4 due to my BSB. he’s Mournfangs down to one wound.

Ghouls& Crypt horrors vs. Death star: lost 3 to impacts, Ghouls attack after his characters killed 7. Ghouls do 12 wounds he saves 8, his ironguts kill 6 stomps 3. Ghouls are down to 1 model 
Crypt horrors do worse out of 15 attacks I only get 4 wounds he does 2 in return. Combat res see both units crumble.

Ironguts reform to face skellies…

Skellies vs. Stonehorn: Stonehorn kills 4 TS 3 more; skellies cause 2 wounds out of 6 hits


T2: VC

Crumble:
Skellies lose 5
Wraiths pass Ld 5
GG pass

Wraiths charge Stonehorn combat goes banshee screams does 4 wounds kills the beast
Over run a few inches away from the death stars right flank  skellies reform to take the charge from the death star next turn...

GG mop up the last mournfang losing only another 3 GG and reform for a rear charge on the ironguts.



T2: Ogres

The death star charges the skellies killing 10 in combat and 3 to stomps. Skellies hit back with causing 3 wounds…

Magic:
9:6
He casts tooth cracker on the skellies and I failed to dispel.

T3: VC

Crumble:
Skellies lose 6
Wraiths pass
GG pass

GG move up. Wraiths charge his right flank.

Wraiths vs. Dstar banshee screams deals 2 wounds, wraiths deal another 3. Characters attack back killing 1 wraith and putting another on 2 wounds.

T2: Ogres

Combat: he whiffs his attacks wraiths do 2 wounds lose combat by 2. Take 2 crumble.

Magic he casted tooth cracker on my skellies again..

T3: VC
Crumble:
Skellies pass (WTF??) Ld 3
GG pass again love that Wight king

GG move again to get the charge next round.

Skellies charge Dstar.

Skellies vs. Dstar I now realise how much the ogre Death star sucks to be on the receiving end of. Skellies are down to 10 left after the Dstar bested them.

Wraiths do nothing spectacular causing another wound and fade away to the combat res.

T3: Ogres

Dstar vs. skellies: Death star kills 7 skellies in return skellies cause another 2 wounds and promptly turn to dust. No reform from the crumble 

He doesn’t bother with magic this turn.

T4: VC

GG pass crumble and charge the rear of the ironguts, causing 5 wounds!! Wight King causes 1 wound and only taking 1 in return. Win combat but he passes his Ld test.

T4: Ogres

He rolls to reform and fails.

My opponent sensing the game was almost over decided to forget about the magic phase.

T5: VC

No crumble thanks to the BSB

GG deal 4 wounds and take 2 in return.

T5: Ogres
Failed to reform again
We decided to see just how far the GG would get in one final turn of CC.
T6: VC
Crumble saw me lose 1 model

GG hit causing 2 wounds he does none I loose combat res, by 3 losing all the GG. Only my Wight king left…

T6: Ogres

He gets his reform and promptly squishes my Wight King who was being a big pain in the rear

Conclusion:
So my first thought is that my opponent was very kind and did offer to restart after my lord died but i'd rather play through for the epic battle story, also I hate the feedback scroll and I’m now putting a ward on every lord / hero I can.

Also Death Star ironguts aren’t friendly to the undead.

Yea man, 30 ironguts in one unit is pretty bent Way to stick it out despite the gutstar ... and losing your general turn 1

- Salvage

thanks man, it did suck a little but i thought oh well best to be stubborn

The 30 guts, stonehorn, and mournfang add up to 1800 points if kitted out correctly. Just letting you know.

 thedarkavenger wrote:
The 30 guts, stonehorn, and mournfang add up to 1800 points if kitted out correctly. Just letting you know.

Yeah the rest he used on items and banners, as i said i didnt get a copy of his list...

 Interrogator-Chaplin wrote:
Yeah the rest he used on items and banners, as i said i didnt get a copy of his list...

I wasn't including characters. The Tyrant on his own would bring the list up to 2k. And then you have the bruiser and butcher.

Ok so i may have not remembered corerectly on the lord/ heros but he did have a butcher for his wizard and a bsb brusier + 1 other character....

well he had 4.5 ranks of ironguts 6 wide so he had 24 , thats my bad on memory.

next time i'll make sure i get his list to avoid confustion.

Well done, man.
Warhammer has one big flaw, in that even if the game is basically won and done, it still takes two hours.
But you didn't surrender! Awesome.

How do you have 4.5 ranks?

6 across at the front, so the .5 would be 3 Ogres at the back.

 Interrogator-Chaplin wrote:
Ok so i may have not remembered corerectly on the lord/ heros but he did have a butcher for his wizard and a bsb brusier + 1 other character....

well he had 4.5 ranks of ironguts 6 wide so he had 24 , thats my bad on memory.

next time i'll make sure i get his list to avoid confustion.

So, 24 guts is 1077, 3 fangs are 280, butcher is 160, bruiser is 189, Stonehorn is 250 and the Tyrant would be 310 assuming he maxed out on magical gear, as I dunno what they generally take. That still adds up to 2266. These costs are worked out from what I assume they take, which may be wrong.

I commend you for sticking it out though.

 thedarkavenger wrote:

 Interrogator-Chaplin wrote:
Ok so i may have not remembered corerectly on the lord/ heros but he did have a butcher for his wizard and a bsb brusier + 1 other character....

well he had 4.5 ranks of ironguts 6 wide so he had 24 , thats my bad on memory.

next time i'll make sure i get his list to avoid confustion.

So, 24 guts is 1077, 3 fangs are 280, butcher is 160, bruiser is 189, Stonehorn is 250 and the Tyrant would be 310 assuming he maxed out on magical gear, as I dunno what they generally take. That still adds up to 2266. These costs are worked out from what I assume they take, which may be wrong.

I commend you for sticking it out though.

He could of ran some stuff barebones, but even without all the trimmings id say his list is 50+ over

Tiarna Fuilteach wrote:


He could of ran some stuff barebones, but even without all the trimmings id say his list is 50+ over

I severely dislike it when ogre players decide that they need unfair/illegal advantages. Despite playing one of the easiest books to use out there.

 thedarkavenger wrote:

Tiarna Fuilteach wrote:


He could of ran some stuff barebones, but even without all the trimmings id say his list is 50+ over

I severely dislike it when ogre players decide that they need unfair/illegal advantages. Despite playing one of the easiest books to use out there.

I dont even think you need to call Ogre players out specifically, any player that decides to give themselves an unfair advantage (read: cheating) is pathetic...

Of course, if it is only 50 points or so it is entirely possible that the Ogres player just counted up their points wrong (if it is 100+ this becomes less plausible IMO)

 Revenent Reiko wrote:
I dont even think you need to call Ogre players out specifically, any player that decides to give themselves an unfair advantage (read: cheating) is pathetic...

Of course, if it is only 50 points or so it is entirely possible that the Ogres player just counted up their points wrong (if it is 100+ this becomes less plausible IMO)

The fact that Ogres have a book that can resort to pushing models forwards and rolling dice makes the fact that he cheated even worse.

But as I mentioned, I ran the calculations with the general stuff, Guts with the standard of discipline, Fangs with the dragonhide banner and Bruiser with the heavy armour that gives him a ward save. He may have taken different stuff or not taken any of that altogether.

I don't think Ogres have the point and click play style that you are suggesting.

Yes, they are tough and fast as well as being decent in combat, but they are expensive points wise and most units suffer from low Initiative and Weapon Skill, meaning most enemies hit them first needing a 4+ or sometimes even a 3+.

Also the points costs for their units (cheapest ogre unit being 30pts a model basic unless you use Gnoblars which I don't) means that you don't have a lot on the field meaning that you will be outnumbered and have more chance of being charged in the flank or rear.

BTW, I chose Ogres not because they are rock solid and easy to play (supposedy) as I hadn't read the book before I bought it. I picked them because they didn't need many models to play the game (I am a very slow painter) and because they are different to the armies I have played in the past for both wfb (O&G, Skaven) and 40K (Eldar, Tau, CSM, Daemons).

I also totally abhor the idea of cheating in this game that we play for fun as there is no point in playing if you can't win fairly. I always check my army list to make sure it adds up and will happily show it to my opponent if they ask.

Kudos to the Vampire player for sticking it out even after your General dying in turn 1!

I'd wager that thedarkavenger's Ogre-hate is the result of being at the receiving end of a Gutstar on a few too many occasions.

I do hate Deathstars, and there are more Ogre lists with them than other armies, but I don't think we need to bash on people who play Ogres, passive-aggressively or otherwise.

I just can't understand why you'd want to run a Deathstar. When I'm losing hard, I know that the next two hours are going to range between mildly unpleasant and ulcer-induceingly-awful, depending on my opponent's attitude. When I'm winning hard, I can't really enjoy the game, because I'm trying to help my opponent not hate it.
Deathstars basically boil the game down to these two options. Why would anyone want that?

 thedarkavenger wrote:

 Revenent Reiko wrote:
I dont even think you need to call Ogre players out specifically, any player that decides to give themselves an unfair advantage (read: cheating) is pathetic...

Of course, if it is only 50 points or so it is entirely possible that the Ogres player just counted up their points wrong (if it is 100+ this becomes less plausible IMO)

The fact that Ogres have a book that can resort to pushing models forwards and rolling dice makes the fact that he cheated even worse.

But as I mentioned, I ran the calculations with the general stuff, Guts with the standard of discipline, Fangs with the dragonhide banner and Bruiser with the heavy armour that gives him a ward save. He may have taken different stuff or not taken any of that altogether.

As said, Ogres arent quite that point and click, but they can make effective lists, as can any army...does make cheating any better of course....

So run the calculations again with barebones and see what happens, dont make the assumption that they are running them exactly as you would (or as the latest net list does)....

Warpsolution wrote:
I'd wager that thedarkavenger's Ogre-hate is the result of being at the receiving end of a Gutstar on a few too many occasions.

It isn't the gutstar, it is the redundancy that the book offers. I've played an ogre army before and all my tactical playing was ruined by him getting a double 6 charge off.

Ogres aren't point and click but they are the only army that can function well with that strategy.

Don't even get me started on mournfang.

As for the list, without any upgrades at all on the characters, no magical/non magical gear, bar the BSB, or any magic banners, just command options, it comes out to 1987.

thedarkavenger, the book has nothing at all to do with your opponent rolling a double 6....thats the game mechanic at fault for random charges....

however, yes i completely agree that mournfang are broken as hell....

So not a likely situation when someone has set up a gutstar, but plausible nonetheless....

 Revenent Reiko wrote:
thedarkavenger, the book has nothing at all to do with your opponent rolling a double 6....thats the game mechanic at fault for random charges....

I'm not on about random charges. It is the fact that an ogre player has the option to resort to trying to charge each turn and suffer minimal drawbacks.

 thedarkavenger wrote:

 Revenent Reiko wrote:
thedarkavenger, the book has nothing at all to do with your opponent rolling a double 6....thats the game mechanic at fault for random charges....

I'm not on about random charges. It is the fact that an ogre player has the option to resort to trying to charge each turn and suffer minimal drawbacks.

Then why mention the double 6? Obviously without random charge then that would be redundant...

And basically any army can 'rely' on charges so long as you are talking about combat blocks, obviously ranged units wont suffer from the same benefits... Yes, they have a strong book, but you make a combat list with most other army books and the same rule applies: charge. simple as that (mostly...)

 Revenent Reiko wrote:
Then why mention the double 6? Obviously without random charge then that would be redundant...

And basically any army can 'rely' on charges so long as you are talking about combat blocks, obviously ranged units wont suffer from the same benefits... Yes, they have a strong book, but you make a combat list with most other army books and the same rule applies: charge. simple as that (mostly...)

Most armies can't afford to push models forwards and charge.

Even Warriors of Chaos, with all their armour are still single wound models. A unit of 10 warriors only has 10 wounds, but 10 ogres have 30. If you want to see what I mean, Try pushing a combat elf/VC army forwards and just rolling dice. It won't work. But with ogres it will and you won't get punished for having no skill.

If you push ogres 12" forwards on turn 1 you are likely to still come out on top of that matchup, unless you are against a very good player who knows his army really well.

 thedarkavenger wrote:

 Revenent Reiko wrote:
Then why mention the double 6? Obviously without random charge then that would be redundant...

And basically any army can 'rely' on charges so long as you are talking about combat blocks, obviously ranged units wont suffer from the same benefits... Yes, they have a strong book, but you make a combat list with most other army books and the same rule applies: charge. simple as that (mostly...)

Most armies can't afford to push models forwards and charge.

Even Warriors of Chaos, with all their armour are still single wound models. A unit of 10 warriors only has 10 wounds, but 10 ogres have 30. If you want to see what I mean, Try pushing a combat elf/VC army forwards and just rolling dice. It won't work. But with ogres it will and you won't get punished for having no skill.

If you push ogres 12" forwards on turn 1 you are likely to still come out on top of that matchup, unless you are against a very good player who knows his army really well.

And what is the points difference between those 2 units? The whole point is that Ogres pay for the fact that they have MI Core...WoC may only be 1 wound models, but those are high armour, high attacks, high WS, high I , high Ld models (that are also costed appropriately as far as i am aware) so what you are paying for in Ogres is multiple wounds, high S/T, multiple attacks with high movement and Bull Charge (they still have this right?), but with low WS and terrible Ld...Ogres are meant to be the run at them army (one reason i dont like the ironblaster), the finesse is meant to be where and how you charge...

Done correctly (ie backed up like they should be) an Elf or VC combat army can do exactly this, big units of Swordmasters/White Lions or big units of GG will mow through most other combat blocks, the difference being theat they dont necessarily have the same resilience due to the wounds, yeah sure a gutstar has a lot of wounds to take down, but they are all in one block, the elven or VC armies in this theoretical situation have more than just the one unit...

Are you? ive seen plenty of Ogre players do this and lose (reading on here, not in RL, i dont get to play anymore ), yeah fine ive seen them win as well, but thats the game right?

Saying all that, we have dragged this way off topic and i think its time to stop, you dont like Ogres, i dont mind them, agree to disagree?

 Revenent Reiko wrote:
Done correctly (ie backed up like they should be) an Elf or VC combat army can do exactly this, big units of Swordmasters/White Lions or big units of GG will mow through most other combat blocks, the difference being theat they dont necessarily have the same resilience due to the wounds, yeah sure a gutstar has a lot of wounds to take down, but they are all in one block, the elven or VC armies in this theoretical situation have more than just the one unit...

No Elf army can push forwards and roll dice, because they are elves. At the end of the day, any elf army is still T3 with no armour. That means that they need to get into combat when they can be sure they will win it. That translates to tactical play and choosing charges and placing buffs. As does VC. A normal big block of 30 white lions is still far more fragile than an ogre unit of equivalent cost, because you said it yourself. They are MI. They lack the weaknesses of other armies. And Ogres have several advantages over other armies. The primary being that they are all MI. Slaughtermasters that require a 6 to hit unless you're WS 5 or higher are also fairly bent. Then you have mournfangs, and ironblasters. Hell, even their chaff has a leg up over other armies'.

But allow me to reiterate my original point. Any ogre player who chooses to ignore the list of advantages above and still cheat is just abhorrent.

As for the pushing 12" forwards, it is pretty much the mournfang/gutstar 'tactic'. If people lose with that, they just aren't pushing it hard enough.

What have i started ? lol

rohansoldier wrote:I don't think Ogres have the point and click play style that you are suggesting.

Yes, they are tough and fast as well as being decent in combat, but they are expensive points wise and most units suffer from low Initiative and Weapon Skill, meaning most enemies hit them first needing a 4+ or sometimes even a 3+.

Also the points costs for their units (cheapest ogre unit being 30pts a model basic unless you use Gnoblars which I don't) means that you don't have a lot on the field meaning that you will be outnumbered and have more chance of being charged in the flank or rear.

BTW, I chose Ogres not because they are rock solid and easy to play (supposedy) as I hadn't read the book before I bought it. I picked them because they didn't need many models to play the game (I am a very slow painter) and because they are different to the armies I have played in the past for both wfb (O&G, Skaven) and 40K (Eldar, Tau, CSM, Daemons).

I also totally abhor the idea of cheating in this game that we play for fun as there is no point in playing if you can't win fairly. I always check my army list to make sure it adds up and will happily show it to my opponent if they ask.

Kudos to the Vampire player for sticking it out even after your General dying in turn 1!

Thanks i wasn't gonna give up if i had more GG at turn 5 and all the moons were aligned i could of won

thedarkavenger wrote:

 Revenent Reiko wrote:
I dont even think you need to call Ogre players out specifically, any player that decides to give themselves an unfair advantage (read: cheating) is pathetic...

Of course, if it is only 50 points or so it is entirely possible that the Ogres player just counted up their points wrong (if it is 100+ this becomes less plausible IMO)

The fact that Ogres have a book that can resort to pushing models forwards and rolling dice makes the fact that he cheated even worse.

But as I mentioned, I ran the calculations with the general stuff, Guts with the standard of discipline, Fangs with the dragonhide banner and Bruiser with the heavy armour that gives him a ward save. He may have taken different stuff or not taken any of that altogether.

ok well he didnt have the dragonhide banner. but he did have the SoD and a BSB and 3 magic weapons (not the expensive ones) otherwise he wouldnt have been able to kill my wraiths.

thedarkavenger wrote:

Warpsolution wrote:
I'd wager that thedarkavenger's Ogre-hate is the result of being at the receiving end of a Gutstar on a few too many occasions.

It isn't the gutstar, it is the redundancy that the book offers. I've played an ogre army before and all my tactical playing was ruined by him getting a double 6 charge off.

Ogres aren't point and click but they are the only army that can function well with that strategy.

Don't even get me started on mournfang.

As for the list, without any upgrades at all on the characters, no magical/non magical gear, bar the BSB, or any magic banners, just command options, it comes out to 1987.

well i trusted him so i guess next time ill make a quick double check when i get his list.

 Interrogator-Chaplin wrote:

Thanks i wasn't gonna give up if i had more GG at turn 5 and all the moons were aligned i could of won

That's the spirit!

As for Ogres being able to march forward versus other units, 18 Ogres versus their equivalent in other stuff...

30 halberd-wielding Warriors: lose 4 (I think) to Impact, swing 36 times, hit 24, wound 16.
13 Ogres swing 39 times, hit 19.5, wound 9.8, 8.2 after saves.
6 stomps, 3 wounds, 2 after saves.
Warriors: 16+1 rank. Ogres: 14.2+1 rank +1 for charging. Ogres win by 1.2 if they charge or lose by 3.8 or more if they don't.

36 Swordmasters: lose 5 to Impact, swing 40 times, hit 35.6, wound 17.8.
12 Ogres swing 36 times, hit 18 times, wound 12 times.
6 stomps, 4 wounds, 3.3 after saves.
Swordmasters: 17.8+1 rank. Ogres: 20.3+1 rank +1 for charging, Ogres win by 3.5 if they charge or lose by 3.5 or more if they don't.

Consensus: huge units of anything like this could do well running forward and killin' stuff. Ogres are a little better at it, because of Impact Hits and M6, but that's all, really.

Warpsolution wrote:
Consensus: huge units of anything like this could do well running forward and killin' stuff. Ogres are a little better at it, because of Impact Hits and M6, but that's all, really.

Ogres do do well when they forwards. Unbuffed ogres can charge into most things and come out on top. Warriors used to do that but in their new book with the prices fiddled around and all they need the magic to synergise.

As for high elves, if they run forward and die, they will die to shooting, magic and possibly a flank charge.

Ogres don't worry about any, barring certain flank charges, of that because they're T4 multiple wound models.

My original point was, the fact that they are T4, multiple wound models offers them certain tactics available to them alone. Which is to walk forwards through shooting.

Also, the amount of ogres players out there, competitive or not, who just try for charges whenever they can is astounding.

 thedarkavenger wrote:
the amount of ogres players out there, competitive or not, who just try for charges whenever they can is astounding.

I agree with all other points besides this. I don't think any of us have played enough games in enough locales to make a call like this. Normally, I say such assumptions are probably safe. But not when the assumption makes a (rather disagreeable) call on not the game, but the people who play it.

Still, yeah, Ogres are better suited to March Forward-and-Charge than other armies, but I don't think it's by nearly as much.
An Ogre has 3 Wounds and Attacks, for 30pts. How is this different than three models with 1 Wound and Attack for 10pts each?
There are some differences:

- M6 ('cause their big)
- no loss of attacks until 3 wounds are dealt.
- Stomp
- immune to Killing Blow
- less hits with Templates
- 3 supporting attacks
- needs to be the equivalent of 6 normal models wide for ranks, 12 for Horde, and each rank is the equivalent of 2 normal ranks (making the unit very big very fast, and difficult to break Steadfast).

So it's mostly a list of little benefits here and there, but benefits nonetheless. I'll concede that they stand a better chance with such a boring tactic than other armies, but (1) it's not that much better, and (2) it's still a bad tactic.

Warpsolution wrote:
I agree with all other points besides this. I don't think any of us have played enough games in enough locales to make a call like this. Normally, I say such assumptions are probably safe. But not when the assumption makes a (rather disagreeable) call on not the game, but the people who play it.

Still, yeah, Ogres are better suited to March Forward-and-Charge than other armies, but I don't think it's by nearly as much.
An Ogre has 3 Wounds and Attacks, for 30pts. How is this different than three models with 1 Wound and Attack for 10pts each?
There are some differences:

- M6 ('cause their big)
- no loss of attacks until 3 wounds are dealt.
- Stomp
- immune to Killing Blow
- less hits with Templates
- 3 supporting attacks
- needs to be the equivalent of 6 normal models wide for ranks, 12 for Horde.

So it's mostly a list of little benefits here and there, but benefits nonetheless. I'll concede that they stand a better chance with such a boring tactic than other armies, but (1) it's not that much better, and (2) it's still a bad tactic.

The fact is, ogres are really well suited to simply pushing models forwards. With the Ogres speed, you don't have time to deal with the pushing forwards. As for the benefits, they will pretty much be in combat/across the board by turn 3. Which is, in of itself, is a major benefit as your opponent will only have two turns to deal with them. That turn 3 suddenly becomes turn 2 in the case of mournfang.

I still stand by ogres having very limited 'tactics' as even their ranged lists are suited to pushing forwards as they are still Ogres and can hold their own in combat.