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This game has piqued my interest for a while, but lately I've got the urge to just dive right in. Years ago, I got the Warmachine Prime Remix book. How outdated is this book? Will I able to learn the basics of the game or should I not bother with this version? Also, how "listy" is this game? Honestly, nothing is more annoying when you roll up somewhere to play a casual game and someone rolls their eyes going "You're playing with •that•?" when it's not based on the Net Tourney List Of the Month....

Remix is unfortunately rather out of date, simply being the 1st edition rulebook with the errata rolled into it. You'll want to buy Prime Mk. II. The basics remain the same, but there's a lot of changes in how points work, units cohesion and leaders, and order of activation questions (along with a host of other things).

The game tends to be much more dependent on the player rather than the list. Nearly everything in the game is competitive, and those that don't seem so will still have uses in slightly more niche applications.

Awesome! Thanks for the quick reply! ...Well as I suspected with the book being out of date. I guess I can read it to start getting immersed in the fluff...

As for the not-net-tourney list of the month, it's not an issue.

That isn't to list construction isn't a part of the game, and that there aren't some builds that will get a cock eye from people (ALL VIGILANTS!!!!).

However, especially on a casual level there are a large range of lists that will work. You can defiantly play unorthodox lists and get performance out of them.

There are some turds no amount of creativity will polish (I'm looking at you Kossite Woodsmen) but you can defiantly come out on top by using under-the-curve models in creative ways.

You will always get the people who roll their eyes at you. This is usually right after they bust out Harby and the avatar, or eHaley and a stormwall, etc.

The game is basically designed around everything being broken and OP. Which makes it all even.

There is also a bit of rock-papers-scissors to the game. The rock may be good against your scissors, but your paper is going to crack it.

List building is an important skill though, as synergy and how well things work together is usually more important than taking all the power units. You start to get into tourny level stuff and yeah, there is alot of theorycrafting. But the "list of the month" doesn't work for everyone. And the people who win with them usually win because they are good players.

Outliers exist for every rule, but overall I have played a few different systems (40K, Confrontation, malifaux) and WM/H is pretty darn well balanced. All the factions are competitive. All but a few units/casters are playable. And even those aren't bad. Just usually better options out there.

I would also add that this is a game where the lists work less "by themselves". You can carbon-copy the top tier lists from the web, but if you don't spend some good amount of time learning how to play them (probably losing more than a few games in the process) you'll never go very far, as simply put, a strong list will not win a game for you.
This is true for single models/units, too. Ask everyone what to include in a Orboros list. One of the more widely suggested unit will be Shifting Stones. They have pretty straightforward abilities. Understanding what they can do for you is no problem. Learning to use them properly is a totally different affair.

That's great to know, thanks all for the replies! As casual gaming goes, I'm as freeform as you can get with army creation - I use models that look good to me, and fit best within the interpretation of the fluff in my head. Tactics and knowledge base is certainly important, but takes second place...so I'm glad to hear most every unit is viable and that there's no real "God Tiers and below" rankings.

Generally everything will perform on some level. The stuff that works very well for what you want to accomplish stands out quite clearly, and you should be able to figure out some basic combos that you want to try out. The biggest challenge of course is dealing with order of activation tricks - IE, clearing a path to insert your stiletto into your opponent's warcaster to end the game despite their crazy amount of protection.

The learning curve can be a bit steep at times, but there's also not any 'gimmie' factions or scenarios - everything can be beaten, It's just a matter of determining with what and how.

 Kaiserbudheim wrote:
That's great to know, thanks all for the replies! As casual gaming goes, I'm as freeform as you can get with army creation - I use models that look good to me, and fit best within the interpretation of the fluff in my head. Tactics and knowledge base is certainly important, but takes second place...so I'm glad to hear most every unit is viable and that there's no real "God Tiers and below" rankings.

There is synergy, though. You usually want warcasters, jacks or beasts and units that work well together.

For example: Gun mages are an OK unit all by themselves. But add the unit attachment and they get much better. Add a warcaster who can make them more accurate and they become deadly. Add a defender or hunter to be jack marshalled by them and that warjack becomes much more dangerous.

Some things are good all on their own or with minimal synergy. Other things are terrible on their own but become much better when they interact together.

I will say the learning curve is pretty steep if you are playing with people that do know how to play. If you don't understand your army(or your new list) you will have trouble.

The only way to get good is to play lots of games.


The nice thing is that you can change a single thing about an army list and you will have totally changed the dynamics of how it plays. So you can get endless variety, even with the same list.

I've been exploring the same iKreoss list for well over 2 months, still finding new things about.

 Kaiserbudheim wrote:
This game has piqued my interest for a while, but lately I've got the urge to just dive right in. Years ago, I got the Warmachine Prime Remix book. How outdated is this book? Will I able to learn the basics of the game or should I not bother with this version? Also, how "listy" is this game? Honestly, nothing is more annoying when you roll up somewhere to play a casual game and someone rolls their eyes going "You're playing with •that•?" when it's not based on the Net Tourney List Of the Month....

It is a pretty good game to graduate with.

First, you can drop about fifty bucks on a jack, caster, and an infantry unit. (or two jacks).

add yourself some chits, glass markers, or the GF9 stuff, and there you go.

You can learn the basics with the cards from the figures, and the online printout of the quickstart rules.

Listy is a matter of however your local scene is. With the amount of new people playing these days? That older D bag mentality is being replaced with a bunch of newer players.

The rewrite in Mark 2 addressed the point, and they took a backstep or two in thier "Play like you got a Pair" slogan, based on the gakky attitude people were showing with the game.
Make no mistake though, the game is rough. Starting out, you are going to lose a few. It's ok, though. because as you play, you learn and become more comfortable with things.
If you have a local group, you shouldn't have an issue getting in a practicew game to get your feet wet. That is how I started out, and it was back in the "Bad old days". Players I learned from didn't have gak attitudes, even though that was the "Thing to do" at the time. (I played it off and on since the starting four or so factions, so I'm not an expert, but I have a few armies. ( and smaller ones at that.)

Cryx was my first. Denegra and company with the base box set when the game first started out.

Then I picked up that Caine guy and a couple of Cygnar jacks,

Then later picked up the Sorscha starter set.... then added in some mercs, from the base book, but never got around to putting them to use.

I'm intrigued by the game now, because they have worked it so that they all interact with each other. You can play the hordes, ( I have some of the trolls, but not enough use in them to say I know what they do. I have the base set with the three larger guys and thier wizardy wizard guy, and a box of those trolls with the axes.) Play Warmachine, and in that Iron Kingdoms book, thhe RPG seems to play in much the same way as the tabletop game does. On top of that, it doesn't seem too out of the question that you can paint up your RPG character and start putting together your own little tabletop figures to represent your character, and pretty much play in a game.

(There is a free RPG quickstart over at http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/ and more stuff for the games over at http://privateerpress.com/)

There are people out there that you care not to play with, but in the ongoing gak that GW is pulling, your easily going to find more and more "New players" then you are going to find D baggery. BUT- Your local scene is on you to find if thats true or not.

I hope it works out for you.

 Kaiserbudheim wrote:
This game has piqued my interest for a while, but lately I've got the urge to just dive right in. Years ago, I got the Warmachine Prime Remix book. How outdated is this book? Will I able to learn the basics of the game or should I not bother with this version? Also, how "listy" is this game? Honestly, nothing is more annoying when you roll up somewhere to play a casual game and someone rolls their eyes going "You're playing with •that•?" when it's not based on the Net Tourney List Of the Month....

Warmachine is very hard to make a list of the month with. Any tourney shows this to be true. Not only are the top factions varied, but the casters themselves show very little dominance over each other.

That said, half of warmachine is knowing the game and bringing a solid list. The other half is pure strategy. Terrain is dynamic. Model facings matter. Randomness is minimized. I have yet to feel cheated out of a game of warmachine because of a particular unit, army, game breaking rule or because "luck." I can usually trace a loss back to a miscalculation or forgetting something.

Warmachine has so much depth in it's rules and can bring out simple pleasures. Warjacks can grapple each other or toss each other around instead of just beating each other senseless. Many games I've played or seen played have ended up with someone picking up and throwing a jack back at it's caster, not necessarily because it's a good idea or likely to work, but because it's FUN. And the rules are tight. There's little ambiguity. Many times you'll have to reread rules because you'll be surprised how cut and dry they can be.

I lost a game this Friday because I pulled off a long slam with my Titan which then left my Warlock exposed to spell slinging. But who cares, I slammed that Argus good.

I can echo pretty much what everyone has said so far.

everything is competitive, for the most part everything works, as long as you build a list with some decent synergy you can take someone out to lunch.

its like chess, wheras warhammer is checkers, you constantly are shifting positions and trying to get to the other guys king.

also note you dont really need the armys codex, just the main rule book, from there if you just have models, they come with the cards, which have all the rules on them, deciding what you want to buy? buy the deck of cards is usually my suggestion

also also note, that the army boxes, 2 player boxes (especially) and battleboxes, are all pretty much full of stuff you are going to take anyway, the bigger ones with cinerators/warspears/man-o-wars, the medium base "terminator style" unit isn't for every army, but you get a caster thats easy to learn with, and one or two solid jacks you'll probably usually take in one form or another.

 Grundz wrote:

its like chess, where as warhammer is checkers, you constantly are shifting positions and trying to get to the other guys king.

I've seen this comparison before, and outside of positioning to kill the king, I don't think it is all that accurate.

Without getting off topic too much I prefer an analogy of warmachine being like legos where you can create a multitude of wonderful things and adding in new pieces to your collection lets you be even more creative. The downside is that you have to pick where your edges are.
40k is more like play-doh. you can mold it just how you want and maybe even add in a few other colors, but you aren't getting that same crisp level of detail and maybe some parts get a little flimsy.

I found it quite list-y and quite like magic the gathering in that either you get off your uber cheese combo and kill my caster or else it fails and I counter attack.

Also not that cheap really and each new thing is 'biggar and bettar' than the last which sucks.

 Spyral wrote:
I found it quite list-y and quite like magic the gathering in that either you get off your uber cheese combo and kill my caster or else it fails and I counter attack.

Also not that cheap really and each new thing is 'biggar and bettar' than the last which sucks.

If this were true Colossals and Gargantuans would be dominating the competitive circuit.

But they arn't. Colossals and Gargantuans are mostly meh, and for a $ to effectivness ratio they are not very efficient.


Only a couple of colossals and gargantuans have been truly awsome, the rest have been fairly bland.

The fact I can wreck just about any Colossal with two 6 point crusaders says a lot about the effectivness of Colossals.



Ultimately the game is 80% skill and only 20% what your list is. Its not like GW games where some lists can play themselves.

You can have the best warmachine list ever, but if you don't know how to use it you will lose.

I haven't killed an enemy caster yet in 2013 and that's playing my games with an assassination caster. I instead have been dominating in the scenarios going 3-1 in two tournaments that way, so assassinations certainly aren't the only way to play.

Last 4 games ive won by Scenero.

I was losing to menoth pretty good, got him lured to the left side of the table.

It left the right side free to Run Damiano 12" into a zone to Dominate for the win.


Its more about play on the table then lists..

Yes there are bad machups.. But if you forget rules and dont do things.. you will lose..

Like this weekend.. my Heavy Cavalry forgot they got +2 dmg on the charge.. causing them to fail to kill the target and getting smacked down.