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Hello, Dakka, the title says it all mostly. For Gks or heck even as allies, taking the Vindicare assassin with the Aegis Defense Line equipped with the Icarus Lascannon. Since his Shots cannot be LOS'd and his BS of 8 and Deadshot SR convers to the LC on the ADL, has it become standard practice to see this combo in tournament situations? The way I see it, you have 96" range on a BS8 model able to slap the enemy Warlord in the face with a ID LC for first turn Slay the Warlord. And the best part is that they cant LoS the wound. At S9 AP2, it pretty much ID anything minus T5 HQs, which would be almost all the Crons and Nurgle CSM HQs. And if you know beforehand that your going to play against those armies, then field the quad gun and hope for the best. Once the Warlord is out of the way, he can focus on taking out fliers or other need-to-die-asap models. Or if you playing one of the missions that make fast attack or heavy support scoring which also grant a VP at the end for each destroyed, your talking a potential VP a turn from this model alone. It's inexpensive and the ADL is typically taken on alot of armies regardless, why not make it even better?

If you have Coteaz with the Divination power that ignores cover, this combo becomes even better.

I like the Icarus cannon alot - personally, I use it with Telion. Im a Smurf player at heart and dont have a Grey Knights army.

So you force your opponent to reserve their HQ or put it out of Line of Sight of the lascannon?

Not a bad idea - but it seems like a waste of the Vindicare.

I'm sure it was somewhere in his training to be able to curve a giant laser around enemies to snipe the enemy warlord

Lol, I use telion for this exact combo, but I think the Vindi has him hands down. Oh if only Vanilla Marines could take him without needing allies :(

So you force your opponent to reserve their HQ or put it out of Line of Sight of the lascannon?

Not a bad idea - but it seems like a waste of the Vindicare.

If he reserves his HQ, that only prolongs the inevitable until the HQ is on the field. If he keeps the Hq out of LOS all game of the Vindicare's 96" range, then generally, the HQ isn't doing anything anyways, so the assassin has done his job regardless which is to negate your warlord. And its not like the assassin can ONLY shoot the HQ. While you wait for him/her/it to show its yellow-bellied face, you can keep him busy popping fliers and any priority targets. If anything it's a massive mind game to throw off your opponent's concentration to the events while hes focusing on NOT handing you first blood/StWL on a silver platter.

Im almost tempted to take this combo in my necron army as allies along side some Termies and Coteaz or maybe draigo and pallies.

It seems pretty monstrous, although I will note that there are several problems with the plan. The first is that most races have access to some sort of Invulnerable save on their warlord. Although having close to the odds of failing whatever the warlords invulnerable save is still a pretty good chance, it is not a guarenteed first turn slay the warlord. The second issue is line of sight. Vindicares still need to actually see their target, and given that the Aegis is immobile, it isn't unrealistic that a savvy opponent could simply deploy his warlord or behind a rock or something. The third issue is T5/EW warlords. Orks, Necrons, Tyranids, and Daemons (and possibly other codices) all have access to good HQ choices with T5 or better. And many codices have at least one EW option. So against those armies, there is a good chance that all the lascannon would do is strip a wound.

So in short, its a good trick against some codices, but a lot of decent players will quickly catch on and figure out how to counter it. I wouldn't really be expecting it to be metagame warping like first blood is either.

I thought EW only effects wounds that cause ID such as force weapons, not ID from double Toughness.

and I understand it's not garunteed, but if the only thing standing in the way of me and StWL, is one 5+ invul save off your Termie HQ, then how is it not worth it? And honestly I'd be more worried of better cover saves and NF limiting the gun to 36"....


Automatically Appended Next Post:
also, if you know youll be going against said T5 WL...just go to quad gun and set all wounds on em...pretty sure hes gonna fail at least 1 per turn.

I've been successful in getting around your concerned, been running my vindicare as an ally to me DA army, and I put the lascannon on a bastion. If I run into T5 HQs, I drive my bikes up and hit them with a rad grenade. Boom T4 again, Zap! Laser to the brain!

oh I didnt even think of that, DAs meet GKs and watch the enemy warlord cry n a gutter in fear.

overlordweasel wrote:
I thought EW only effects wounds that cause ID such as force weapons, not ID from double Toughness.

and I understand it's not garunteed, but if the only thing standing in the way of me and StWL, is one 5+ invul save off your Termie HQ, then how is it not worth it? And honestly I'd be more worried of better cover saves and NF limiting the gun to 36"....


Automatically Appended Next Post:
also, if you know youll be going against said T5 WL...just go to quad gun and set all wounds on em...pretty sure hes gonna fail at least 1 per turn.

Models with eternal warrior cannot be instant killed, by anything, period.

And why would the quad gun be better, now he will be rolling his normal 2+ save that most hqs have instead of his invun, lascannon is still better.

Better option is just use his own rifle, I pick of all the targets that can hurt my army. Melta guy hiding in a squad of 10 getting near my tanks....Boom, gone.

IDK seems to expensive to me.

Frankly I'd ignore it, or if I got first turn just kill the gun. However Since I play IG, my warlord is pretty much dead turn 1 anyway if I face Grey Knights.

This is one of the best tacs i've read in a while and im disappointed i didn't think of it earlier. This will he getting used for sure in the near future.
With the rules for the Gun it just has to be a model in base to base. Have a squad of strikes casting warp quake there as well who usually fire the LC. Only use the Assassin to fire it at targets where you want to snipe the warlord. He doesn't have to use it every turn, just the first.

Amusing tactic, but a giant waste of points. Would only use in a friendly/fun environment.

Against an HQ with an invuln, turn 1, strip invuln. Turn 2 shoot with las.

Pretzalcoatl wrote:
Against an HQ with an invuln, turn 1, strip invuln. Turn 2 shoot with las.

what about the 4 or 3+ cover save?

 sudojoe wrote:

Pretzalcoatl wrote:
Against an HQ with an invuln, turn 1, strip invuln. Turn 2 shoot with las.

what about the 4 or 3+ cover save?

How is the warlord getting a 3+? The only one that can do that reliably I can think of is the Lord Commissar, Master of the Forge, and Company Command Squad.

If it's a 4+, fine, whatever. It'll take (statistically) only one more turn of shooting to obliterate your Warlord.

Pretzalcoatl wrote:
Against an HQ with an invuln, turn 1, strip invuln. Turn 2 shoot with las.

Exitus rifle is only 36" though. You won't be sure to be able to reach with that first turn

cover saves can be removed by coteaz and one of the divination powers, or any libby

overlordweasel wrote:
cover saves can be removed by coteaz and one of the divination powers, or any libby

But now you're talking about relying entirely on luck to make something work. Once you get to that point, you know it's a invalid strategy.

At face value, it looks great, but there are a lot of lists that don't have warlords that get out in the open trying to kill things. The ones that do are generally T5+ or have EW, or both!

I think its a great tactic as of now, maybe hit a few games when people still dont know it and watch as the move their warlord right into the line of fire to die. After awhile tho people will catch on and start bringing T5 HQs or having them in vehicles.

As for the luck part, yeah of coarse there will be luck involved, we are talking about dice. Its fairly solid as is now, but there are always holes and people will find ways to counter this.

Run it tho while you have it and get some easy victory points lol

This sounds scary, but then I thought about my two armies. How would it actually affect me? My Warlords are:

1- Eldrad w/ Harlies behind an ADL... so not too much to worry about there. If I lose first turn, and there is no terrain that blocks Line of Sight for Eldrad to re-deploy behind, and if he failes a 2+ cover save, then it will suck and you probably win right there. Long odds though.

2- Hive Tyrant, sometimes winged, sometimes shelled... ouch, the lascanon is probably going to shoot him for a wound per turn. The lascanon was scary already and was going to die, but now it is a more expensive double target with the same damage output. The assasin was probably going to be in range anyway and doing a wound per turn as well, so not much added really.

Summary: This might be scary against some armies, but doesn't win the game against everyone. If we can get the metagame to shift back to more transports I'll actually be really grateful. I think 40k is moer fun driving around trucks and things, and really boring when everyone walks 60 models a turn, so maybe...

-Myst

Mysticaria wrote:
My Warlords are:
1- Eldrad w/harlies behind an ADL... so not too much about there.

2- Hive Tyrant, sometimes winged, sometimes shelled... ouch, you're going to shoot him for a wounds per turn

-Myst

My Warlords are either:

Company Commader in a Chimera behind an ADL

or

Rune Priest who hides out of LoS buffing a LF+CML WG pack.


The CCS dies pretty much every time, so no shock there, the RP has yet to die.

Am I missing something here?

Why did nobody mention Look out Sir?
Did I misread the rules and it does not apply?

If it does apply Chances to kill a standard SM Terminator in Round 1 are:

Hitchance * Wound * LootOut * Invul

11/12*5/6*3/6*4/6 = 25.46 % Chance to kill

Not so very nice for 230 points.(180 if you don't count the Aegis itself)
And the chance drops to 19% or 13% with a 4+/3+ Invul Save.

I believe GW FAQ'ed it that Look Out Sir doesn't work against a Vindicare Assassin.

However, as far as I know, it should work against Telion.....

Cyberian wrote:
Am I missing something here?

Did I misread the rules and it does not apply?

The rules don't apply to the Vindicare.

 Compel wrote:
I believe GW FAQ'ed it that Look Out Sir doesn't work against a Vindicare Assassin.

However, as far as I know, it should work against Telion.....

Yes you are right. Thank you. New FAQ, Page 5:

Q: Does the Vindicare Assassin’s Deadshot special rule supersede the
Look Out, Sir special rule for the purposes of Wound allocation,
meaning that the player who owns the Vindicare Assassin is still
allowed to allocate the wounds from its shooting even if their opponent
makes and passes a Look Out, Sir roll? (p53)
A: Yes.

https://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2940047a_Grey_Knights_v1.2_JANUARY13.pdf

Then the Chances are
11/12*5/6 = 76% to kill normal T4 Lord
11/12*5/6*4/6 = 51% to kill 5+ Invul - standard SM Terminator Lord
11/12*5/6*3/6 = 38% to kill 4+ Invul - Rosarius or other Wargear
11/12*5/6*2/6 = 25% to kill 3+ Invul - Stormshield and such

Thats nice chances.

overlordweasel wrote:
If he reserves his HQ, that only prolongs the inevitable until the HQ is on the field. If he keeps the Hq out of LOS all game of the Vindicare's 96" range, then generally, the HQ isn't doing anything anyways, so the assassin has done his job regardless which is to negate your warlord. And its not like the assassin can ONLY shoot the HQ. While you wait for him/her/it to show its yellow-bellied face, you can keep him busy popping fliers and any priority targets. If anything it's a massive mind game to throw off your opponent's concentration to the events while hes focusing on NOT handing you first blood/StWL on a silver platter.

Don't you think that your opponent will dedicate the fire support needed to kill the Vindicare?

Sure, he has stealth and can hide behind the aegis for a 3+ cover save, but it does not take much to shift him. Four or five ML or better shots will dislodge the Vindicare.

Don't get me wrong -- its a great combo and very strong. Its just not an 'unbeatable combo'

Also since terrain is placed after the icarus, any capable opponent will make sure at least parts of the icarus fire lanes will be blocked.

Meaning you just invested 245 points to do nothing of note.

And having played the vindicare in 5th quite some games, if you don't have first turn, don't expect him to be alive if he has to rely on his 3+ cover save behind the Aegis line.

it's a nice idea and fun if everything lines up and it works, but in a competitive environment it will be countered quite easily.

Even with those odds, if the HQ is hiding, you can start picking out special and heavy weapons, force multipliers, psykers pretty much anything you want.