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flaming tadpole wrote:
what happens when you face say a DA landraider spam list. All he would have to do is kill the haywyches and the game is over

Well he better make sure to kill all the wyches. With prescience 3-4 wyches will kill a landraider. Toss one grenade and then charge with 3-4 more.

Also Vect has haywire grenades too, so in desperate times he can kill one, probably takes him 2 turns but he could always roll well and do it in one.

Also the fun thing about this edition is that in order to win eventually they have to get out of the boxes. So really all I have to do is survive until then.

And landraiders tend to come forward and bear assault units. Both of which I like. 4 crusaders are likely a problm, probably a big problem with that DA banner, but I have yet to see that list at events, because as mentioned it has its own list of hard counters.

I agree, land raider spam does have plenty of counters, my only point was that so does this. Of course land raider spam isnt that common yet, so you shouldnt really have to worry about it, I was just using the first example that came to mind, but the fact still stands that relying on all of your AT coming from assault isnt a sound tactic.

What happens when you face a more popular list like a necron flying circus, once they take out the quad-gun and firedragons you again have no way of damaging them, then all they have to do is fly around picking off your troops, which isnt hard to do, and then unload the last turn to grab the objectives.

Another army that counters this ironically is de. Most de lists will be able to out manuever you and just slowly ware you down over time, since you again have no way to pop the transports outside of cc.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sorry if I sound so harsh, I do really like the list, Im just suggesting that you add some balance to it so you'll be more ready when you do finally face a counter.

Oh no worries. Ive heard much worse. I wasnt taking any of it negatively.

I agree that every list has counters, I just didnt think that landraiders were a very big one.

Now the necron flying circus you propose is a bigger deal. Especially if it has annihilation barges as well. My only hope there is that maybe they dont get all the flyers on at once and the quad gun then likely has a chance to kill 2. Then the question becomes how many turns does the game go and if I can get on objectives and start going to ground. But yes thats a very tough matchup.

And as far as mech de. Its basically like mech Ig except mech IG actually worries me and mech de doesnt. Open topped flyers with only 2 hull points that shoot poison, so I still get cover and feel no pain or in the case of birds dont get instant death; versus str 6 shooting across the board for IG tanks that have 3 hull points. Sure the de things are slightly faster but you still hit them on 3's. THe beast unit is so vast that its not hard to charge a bunch of planes, and it should only take 2 birds and a kymera to kill a de vehicle. Not to mention the baron and vect killing one together. Stuff like that.

Nice list OrdoSean.

At 2k I've been running the allied Harliestar, but this list looks stronger at everything except ranged anti armor.

I'm locked in a 1000 point campaign right now, but I will definitely try something like this in the future. Beasts are so damn effecient, slowing them down for fearless and preferred enemy is a smart move.

That's a lot of points in characters, but it looks like you found a way to make them worth their points.

Really awesome and refreshing list to see. Grats on the Templecon win.

OrdoSean wrote:
I like Exergy, he answers every question correctly.

when I am wrong I am usually so wrong, but I have been playing around with DE a lot in 6th as it is the only army I have painted.

I agree the threat from LR spam is pretty low (in terms of whether you'll see it or not), and that necron airforce is difficult but manageable.

However, what about CSM? I know spacing can nullify hellturkeys to some extent, but what about a kitted out noise marines unit? 2/3 salvo ignoring cover seems like it would be a decent counter, and now that a unit of 10 can take 2 blastmasters, they are actually not a bad fire base for an army. Tack on a flamer for over watching goodness and an aegis for cover and you've got some issues to deal with. Heck, even a unit of cultists for bubble wrap.

Any consideration for this, or do you think it's not much of an issue? Genuinely curious, as I think a unit of 10 kitted with an icon is a decent option for CSM now. Probably not good as a troops choice (plagues are just too good), but a lot of mid ranged shots (though admittedly expensive).

[quote=Dash2021 506313 5275566 c5b9f87a1f6a2e6c71e1e218e48c8b6c.jpg
However, what about CSM? I know spacing can nullify hellturkeys to some extent, but what about a kitted out noise marines unit? 2/3 salvo ignoring cover seems like it would be a decent counter, and now that a unit of 10 can take 2 blastmasters, they are actually not a bad fire base for an army. Tack on a flamer for over watching goodness and an aegis for cover and you've got some issues to deal with. Heck, even a unit of cultists for bubble wrap.

Any consideration for this, or do you think it's not much of an issue? Genuinely curious, as I think a unit of 10 kitted with an icon is a decent option for CSM now. Probably not good as a troops choice (plagues are just too good), but a lot of mid ranged shots (though admittedly expensive).

OrdoSean wrote:


Ok but how much does that kitted out unit of noise marines cost? 30 shots, 20 hits, 13.2 wounds. Its nice, but unless you have 2 of those units its going to be hard to get one on line of sight or good range. Remember eldrad has a redeploy power so even if I go first once I see your one uber counter unit I can shift the beasts around to get a better avenue to attack from. Not to mention that that large of a unit will basically need to deploy on foot, which means they are susceptible to my splinter fire so ill kill half the squad on turn 1, or they can deploy outside of my superior range and then have to move turn one thus cutting their shooting down to nothing. So its a give and take kind of scenario.

And like I said to be really effective I think you would need 2 units and then that price question really becomes a big one. Plus they are cult troops so they are fearless which I love because once I get into assault I dont need to worry about them running away to leave me getting shot by the much more dangerous helldrakes and what not.

FWIW, wasn't talking of fielding them as an "über counter unit" to your list specifically, but as a solid part of a TAC list. Ignoring cover for orks/scarab farms etc. would make them versatile enough to justify.

Also, I think a gun line noise marine army could be viable (just hard to give up on the solid plagues troop choice). If taken as an elite in a standard army, may invest in a sorc. for endurance fishing (or some other source of relentless, just the first thing to come to mind).

Anywho, have been thinking of if the FAQ'd noise marines are worth it now. I was assuming your tourny was prior to the FAQ, and so this might be a new obsticle.

 Dash2021 wrote:
I agree the threat from LR spam is pretty low (in terms of whether you'll see it or not), and that necron airforce is difficult but manageable.

However, what about CSM? I know spacing can nullify hellturkeys to some extent, but what about a kitted out noise marines unit? 2/3 salvo ignoring cover seems like it would be a decent counter, and now that a unit of 10 can take 2 blastmasters, they are actually not a bad fire base for an army. Tack on a flamer for over watching goodness and an aegis for cover and you've got some issues to deal with. Heck, even a unit of cultists for bubble wrap.

Any consideration for this, or do you think it's not much of an issue? Genuinely curious, as I think a unit of 10 kitted with an icon is a decent option for CSM now. Probably not good as a troops choice (plagues are just too good), but a lot of mid ranged shots (though admittedly expensive).

the problem is that noise marines dont do enough wounds. Sonic blasters are really expensive and while they might put out what seems like a ton of wounds they will get soaked by razorwings who have 5 wounds each or by kymeras 5++. A ton of noise marines might be good in this instance but it really isnt a TAC list. The huge infiltrating block you might see will get assaulted turn 1. A large unit of cultists suffer from being large and assaultable. Again you try and only get a few models in combat first turn so the cultists dont run.

A unit of 10 Noise marines with 2 blast masters is a very good option. Maybe with the icon. But you arent going to field more than 2-3 sonic blasters or they will become too expensive and too immobile.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Dash2021 wrote:


FWIW, wasn't talking of fielding them as an "über counter unit" to your list specifically, but as a solid part of a TAC list. Ignoring cover for orks/scarab farms etc. would make them versatile enough to justify.

Also, I think a gun line noise marine army could be viable (just hard to give up on the solid plagues troop choice). If taken as an elite in a standard army, may invest in a sorc. for endurance fishing (or some other source of relentless, just the first thing to come to mind).

Anywho, have been thinking of if the FAQ'd noise marines are worth it now. I was assuming your tourny was prior to the FAQ, and so this might be a new obsticle.

got it
and yes noise marines are good. Like I said I dont think you will be seeing too many sonic blasters. There are a lot of good units to take on this uber beast star, but most of them are not taken in sufficient numbers in TAC tourney lists to end it's day consistently.

OrdoSean wrote:

flaming tadpole wrote:
what happens when you face say a DA landraider spam list. All he would have to do is kill the haywyches and the game is over

Well he better make sure to kill all the wyches. With prescience 3-4 wyches will kill a landraider. Toss one grenade and then charge with 3-4 more.

A single DA LRC with banner will deal 17-18 wounds to a Wych unit with one volley. I don't think such an option is good in an all-comers environment-- it's very RPS-- but it is definitely the rock to this list's scissors.

 Dash2021 wrote:


FWIW, wasn't talking of fielding them as an "über counter unit" to your list specifically, but as a solid part of a TAC list. Ignoring cover for orks/scarab farms etc. would make them versatile enough to justify.

Also, I think a gun line noise marine army could be viable (just hard to give up on the solid plagues troop choice). If taken as an elite in a standard army, may invest in a sorc. for endurance fishing (or some other source of relentless, just the first thing to come to mind).

Anywho, have been thinking of if the FAQ'd noise marines are worth it now. I was assuming your tourny was prior to the FAQ, and so this might be a new obsticle.

THe tourney was after the faq I believe, was just 2 weeks ago.

I didnt mean uber as a super unit... rather poor choice of word I believe on my part. In essence I was trying to say that if the rest of the list was generic marines then the unit of cover ignoring marines would be the toughest nut and therefore the pinnacle in the list of things to avoid or deal with early.

I agree that noise marines can be really solid choice. Higher initiative gives them the leg up in marine on marine matches. Their cover ignoring rounds are perhaps wasted there but give a credible fire source against xenos. A full army of them might get too pricy. But like I said I think 2 solid blocks, with one or 2 blast masters but no banner, gotta keep them kinda cheap could give great counter to anyone using invisibility especially, which can include your own kind, Invisible spawn are very tough too.

 Kingsley wrote:

OrdoSean wrote:

flaming tadpole wrote:
what happens when you face say a DA landraider spam list. All he would have to do is kill the haywyches and the game is over

Well he better make sure to kill all the wyches. With prescience 3-4 wyches will kill a landraider. Toss one grenade and then charge with 3-4 more.

A single DA LRC with banner will deal 17-18 wounds to a Wych unit with one volley. I don't think such an option is good in an all-comers environment-- it's very RPS-- but it is definitely the rock to this list's scissors.

GTG behind aegis for a 2+, laugh it off.

LValx wrote:

 Kingsley wrote:

OrdoSean wrote:

flaming tadpole wrote:
what happens when you face say a DA landraider spam list. All he would have to do is kill the haywyches and the game is over

Well he better make sure to kill all the wyches. With prescience 3-4 wyches will kill a landraider. Toss one grenade and then charge with 3-4 more.

A single DA LRC with banner will deal 17-18 wounds to a Wych unit with one volley. I don't think such an option is good in an all-comers environment-- it's very RPS-- but it is definitely the rock to this list's scissors.

GTG behind aegis for a 2+, laugh it off.

If you're going to ground behind an aegis, you first off aren't "laughing off" 17-18 wounds (you might even lose enough guys to test), but you also aren't threatening the LR at all.

OrdoSean wrote:


THe tourney was after the faq I believe, was just 2 weeks ago.

I didnt mean uber as a super unit... rather poor choice of word I believe on my part. In essence I was trying to say that if the rest of the list was generic marines then the unit of cover ignoring marines would be the toughest nut and therefore the pinnacle in the list of things to avoid or deal with early.

I agree that noise marines can be really solid choice. Higher initiative gives them the leg up in marine on marine matches. Their cover ignoring rounds are perhaps wasted there but give a credible fire source against xenos. A full army of them might get too pricy. But like I said I think 2 solid blocks, with one or 2 blast masters but no banner, gotta keep them kinda cheap could give great counter to anyone using invisibility especially, which can include your own kind, Invisible spawn are very tough too.

I'm slowly coming around to the idea that noise marines need to take either a blastmaster or sonics, but not both. Taking one or the other makes the price comparable to other cults, taking both adds on a ton of points, as you say. Icon only for squads of 10+.

I believe you are right, a squad of 10 wouldn't be enough, but a blob squad supported by cheap 5 mans w/blastmasters in the back field could do the trick. Of course, squeezing the points for more than 3 squads into a list already carrying the obligatory Oblits and hellturkey would be an issue.

Going to play around with it a bit and post a list later. I really like the idea of digging into a codex and coming up with unique combos, as apparently you do as well. Pulling out little dirty surprises is fun. inb4thatswhatshesaid

 Kingsley wrote:

LValx wrote:

 Kingsley wrote:

OrdoSean wrote:

flaming tadpole wrote:
what happens when you face say a DA landraider spam list. All he would have to do is kill the haywyches and the game is over

Well he better make sure to kill all the wyches. With prescience 3-4 wyches will kill a landraider. Toss one grenade and then charge with 3-4 more.

A single DA LRC with banner will deal 17-18 wounds to a Wych unit with one volley. I don't think such an option is good in an all-comers environment-- it's very RPS-- but it is definitely the rock to this list's scissors.

GTG behind aegis for a 2+, laugh it off.

If you're going to ground behind an aegis, you first off aren't "laughing off" 17-18 wounds (you might even lose enough guys to test), but you also aren't threatening the LR at all.

If you cannot threaten the LR without losing the vast majority of your models, you are probably better off GTG and outlasting the opponent. You cannot score from inside a LR and a LR rarely is able to score. And GTG behind an aegis confers a 2+ save, meaning you are in fact laughing off the majority of the firepower (not to mention possible FNP). You can facepalm all you want, but GTG behind an aegis is a great tactic and one that I would surely use vs the LR list. And there are other variables, are there multiple LRs? If you are shooting with 1 LR at 1 unit, then it can easily GTG whilst the other continues to threaten... so right back at ya.

Also on the go to ground issue. If eldrad has the mental fortitude power then the wyches can go to ground to shrug off the majority of the wounds then per the new FAQ eldrad casts mental fortitude and they get back up and charge the landraider which is close by if it was in double tap range.

OrdoSean wrote:
Also on the go to ground issue. If eldrad has the mental fortitude power then the wyches can go to ground to shrug off the majority of the wounds then per the new FAQ eldrad casts mental fortitude and they get back up and charge the landraider which is close by if it was in double tap range.

The DA LR fires salvo at 24" in this setup. But as said, that list has only two or three troops of plain tacs, so it's hardly an effective tourny list.

Well, Vect is an infantry model, while the Baron and the Beasts can move faster. As a whole the unit can move not faster than the slowest element and this is Vect. How does the conga line help here?

 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, Vect is an infantry model, while the Baron and the Beasts can move faster. As a whole the unit can move not faster than the slowest element and this is Vect. How does the conga line help here?

That's a fifth edition rule. It no longer applies in sixth.

 Mandor wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, Vect is an infantry model, while the Baron and the Beasts can move faster. As a whole the unit can move not faster than the slowest element and this is Vect. How does the conga line help here?

That's a fifth edition rule. It no longer applies in sixth.

yes, as has been brought up in this thread numerous times. You need to play 6th edition to understand how this list works.

I really dig it. My first thought when reading the new psychic power rules and 6th edition was of Eldrad/DE combos, and I think this list illustrates why that can be a good thing.

The lists that would seem to challenge this one the most that come to mind are AV 14 heavy as others have mentioned, heavy templates, like large numbers of Chimera with heavy flamers seems like would be a tough match-up. Purifiers, TH/SS terms, maybe a Pally star if it had the right mixture of toys.

Still, if played well I don't see anything that's a "hard counter" as they say. Just a few armies that could give you fits, particularly if Eldrad strikes out on the Tables.

yes, as has been brought up in this thread numerous times. You need to play 6th edition to understand how this list works.

Well when we tested we played the list a bit wrong at first ... so used to 5ed still even after so many 6ed games we make mistakes. We put in a chronos and now realize that the agl is better although FNP is nice. We split characters of the beast pack prematurely - we used them to take out cheap screens ... better to shoot your SCs or just consolidate into cover with the pack in terrain and then attack the next turn. We have to remember to conga properly and that the squad does not have to move at the speed of the slowest member as in 6ed. We made lots of mistakes to be honest which is why i have been asking noob like questions to elicit as much information as possible - our group has been playing since 2nd edition ... we've been around but that hampers us not helps at times. It's easy to repeat mistakes over and over if you do not get caught. This list is unforgiving. You don't have room for a whole lot of mistakes. Move to slow, don't take advantage of area terrain, get blocked by vehicles or screens ... lots of ways to screw up.

 felixcat wrote:
We put in a chronos and now realize that the agl is better although FNP is nice.

Can you clarify that? The OP had both Chronos and ADL, although I've seen variations that had Reavers instead of the Chronos.

We have to remember to conga properly and that the squad does not have to move at the speed of the slowest member as in 6ed.

Surprise surprise.

Can you clarify that? The OP had both Chronos and ADL, although I've seen variations that had Reavers instead of the Chronos.

What I meant to say is that the Chronos did not do anything that the AGL and reavers does not do. It's a bit costly for the what it does at 1850. We are thinking of switching out to reaver jetbikes. We will be playng on thursday to finalize our lists and testing this ...

HQ: Baron Sathonyx - 105 [DE]
HQ: Asdrubael Vect - 240 [DE]
HQ: Eldrad - 210 [EL]
Elite: 3 True Born - 2 Splinter Cannons - 56 [DE]
Elite: 3 True Born - 2 Splinter Cannons - 56 [DE]
Troop: 16 Wyches - Haywire, Hekatrix PGL, Venom Blade - 218 [DE]
Troop: 16 Wyches - Haywire, Hekatrix PGL, Venom Blade - 218 [DE]
Troop: 20 Warriors - 2 Splinter Cannons, Sybarite - 210 [DE]
Troop: 3 Guardian Jetbikes - 66 [EL]
Troop: 3 Guardian Jetbikes - 66 [EL]
FA: 5 Beast Masters - 5 Kymerra, 8 Razorwings - 240 [DE]
HS: 1 Cronos Parasite Engine - Spirit Vortex - 100 [DE]
HS: 1 Talos Pain Engine - TL Haywire Blasters, Chainflails - 115 [DE]
Fortification: Aegis Defense Line - Quad Gun - 100

We ran into some small issues last game with rhinos and razors trying to block the beastmaster advance. Also I don't wat to get tied up with a large sacrificial screen in front of my prime targets for the pack. So Cronos/Talos make a bit of sense here. e will see ... we are up against GK/IG ... this a list that can bring the hurt. We are not using the Talos/Cronos for taking out vehicles in the enemy deployment zone. But they are really effective against armies that will be approaching you with transports trying to block the beasts. These armies usually want to close the gap as soon as they can. So the Talos/Cronos will be in range by turn 2, usually. Pop the transport, then you have a big threat standing in front of a vulnerable squad. This means the Talos is useful even without a WWP. It's ability to draw fire is also invaluable.What do you target ... MCs or beasts.





---

ShadarLogoth wrote:
I really dig it. My first thought when reading the new psychic power rules and 6th edition was of Eldrad/DE combos, and I think this list illustrates why that can be a good thing.

The lists that would seem to challenge this one the most that come to mind are AV 14 heavy as others have mentioned, heavy templates, like large numbers of Chimera with heavy flamers seems like would be a tough match-up. Purifiers, TH/SS terms, maybe a Pally star if it had the right mixture of toys.

Still, if played well I don't see anything that's a "hard counter" as they say. Just a few armies that could give you fits, particularly if Eldrad strikes out on the Tables.

I mean this list will get laughed off the table if you bring enough hellhounds.

AV14 isnt a problem as only LR have it on the back and haywire grenades still dont care. A redeemer could be alright, but it still is likely to get glanced to death easily.
TH/SS and Pally stars get parred down by splinter fire too easily. Then the mass of attacks of the beasts will finish them off. The pallystar ends up taking even more with the rends. Purifiers and the pally star have to remember that eldrad is around, so their flames, hh, and force weapons dont go off often and cause wounds a lot.

Paladins and other grey knight terminators are actually kind of a problem. The brotherhood banner lets them ignore runes of warding to activate their force weapons. Also rad grenades could make them not even need the force weapons to begin with. Both situations would need careful planning to deal with, the banner being the easier one of the two, if you can concentrate attacks on him to die before they get a chance to activate their weapons. In the grenades case it is much harder to kill the carrier because he is an independent character and so has a good LOS, and the grenades would have already gone into effect if you are in combat.

Purifiers themselves arent as big a deal. With only 3+ armor vect eats like 5 birds kill rest. And they wont get cleansing flame off that often with only ld 9 against runes of warding. Also eldrad deny's the witch on a 4+ against it.

If you are really worried about rhinos and razorbacks blocking you then you are probably going to need heat lances or war walkers or something. The one shot hay wire gun on the talos wont cut it. And if you are just going to charge the tanks might as well let the beasts do it.

The cronos is fine in theory too... but by the time its large blast is in range you probably already assaulted the thing and killed it with the beasts. If people are throwing up cheap screens of infantry just pop holes in them with splinter cannons. And add the screen to the list of things you are charging that turn. If you arent charging 3+ units then you should have a good reason... either there arent that many things to charge or you need to get all your attacks in against someone else's death star.

The Talos/Cronos can do more than just handle the rhinos and razors. They have multiple uses. I can drop the venom blades get the extra upgrades on the Cronos and Heat Lances on the Talos. We can certainly try it tomorrow. Will see after Thursday's game how it goes. But the Cronos was good last test ... certainly nice against IG blobs when fully upgraded and getting 3-4 tokens a turn. And MCs are a twist for the list that cannot be ignored.

Both situations would need careful planning to deal with, the banner being the easier one of the two, if you can concentrate attacks on him to die before they get a chance to activate their weapons.

And how do we do that? We really have no precision shots to bring to the party. So getting to him will be a task also. Or am I missing something here?

I will be careful but I believe the list has GKSS and IG blobs - I don't expect to see paladins but if so I'll try and pick off the banner. I'm not looking forward to rad grenades and my MCs will not help here much. FNP - if I get it will help a bit. I'll be careful and take your advice.

As you know we are deciding between this and the list I PMed you. Don't be surprised to see a mirror match up if we like this better.

I know this might sound heretical, but Tau might actually fare halfway decent against the beastly horde.

Considering that markerlights allow you to reduce cover saves, and that Hammerheads can drop S6 AP4 large blasts.... a couple Tetras aiding a pair of Hammerheads might be able to do a number on this mob. Especially if you can get the Hammerheads to position to avoid LOS to Vect / Baron Sathy, or at least make the Razorwings the closest model. Interaction between doubling wounds against swarms and instant death due to double toughness means you're removing 10 wounds worth of Razorwings at a time, at least; plus your Beastmasters will be falling just as quickly due to AP4. Majority toughness rule means the Khymarae may get their invul save, but they're getting wounded just as easily as the rest of the pack. You could quite quickly gut the heart of such a formation... then follow up with a cover ignoring Airbursting Fragmentation Projector (another S4 AP5 large blast) and you've likely done some serious damage to this pack. And none of these things are all that uncommon in Tau lists.

Follow up with massed S5 from FWs or whatever to force the two shadowfields to save, and it's basically mopping up after that.

Granted, you get all of 1 turn to execute that before you're totally hosed, but still.

 felixcat wrote:

The Talos/Cronos can do more than just handle the rhinos and razors. They have multiple uses. I can drop the venom blades get the extra upgrades on the Cronos and Heat Lances on the Talos. We can certainly try it tomorrow. Will see after Thursday's game how it goes. But the Cronos was good last test ... certainly nice against IG blobs when fully upgraded and getting 3-4 tokens a turn. And MCs are a twist for the list that cannot be ignored.

I will be careful but I believe the list has GKSS and IG blobs - I don't expect to see paladins but if so I'll try and pick off the banner. I'm not looking forward to rad grenades and my MCs will not help here much. FNP - if I get it will help a bit. I'll be careful and take your advice.

I know talos/cronos can do other things. I was just responding to what you seemed to want them chiefly for. When you get a talos into combat it is a beautiful thing. I used to run 2-3 for funsies. THe trouble is they are about a wound or 2 short of reliably getting into combat.

The cronos can at most generate 3 tokens a turn. One for the flamer, one for the blast, and one if you take the combat upgrade too.

Remember the feel no pain in the blob only helps the masters and characters.


As for tau. I agree markerlights are a major pain. But the issue with tau is that once you hit them they fold like paper weights. My last game with tau I was charging 4 units a turn until there werent enough things to charge.

And its a common misconception, but razorwing are not swarms so dont take double damage from templates or blasts.

But yeah between smart missiles and marker lights tau can put out some decent cover ignoring fire. I expect them to be very scary when they get a new codex.