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Heya.
I'm looking to make my Devs more survivable. They're ImpFist successors, due later for Tank Hunter upgrades from a FW Special Character. I generally deploy them on high ground in a denied flank deployment but they get shot up quicksmart by everyone. I'm buying them an Aegis Defense Line as a permanent upgrade but figured running their overall composition by yuz wouldn't hurt. Please critique and recommend swapouts.

The Devastator squad, brought in line with 6 ed is as follows:
*Sergeant with
-combi plasma (for that snap fire before being charged or that pot shot at *that* right moment)
-Power Axe (to look after his guys when the firebase gets infiltrated)

*4 Missile Launchers (for tactical flexibility)

*5 boltguns (for wound soak away from the Missile Launchers).

The sergeant is an old metal veteran model with the finecast Terminator Librarian CombiPlas hand that ended up getting painted so nicely I *HAD* to give him a spot somewhere. I know he overprices the unit with his Wargear and accept that it's time to replace him, so, 2 questions:

*What gear should the new Dev Sarge have?
*What is a good job for the existing CombiPlas/Axeman sergeant to be given. By new job, I mean new unit to lead plus Transport if required.

Also, is the big gun in the Aegis line mandatory or optional, and is it a choice of guns or a fixed type? Is it accurate that it must be manned by one of the Devastator Marines?

Thanks in advance.

Kitting out the sergeant will surely raise the unit cost.
How many dev squads do you have in your list?
If only 1, then that can be a reason that they take so much damage.
You need more distraction or back-up units.

I personally run 2 dev squads (5 man) with 4x missile launchers placed on either side of the board. No further upgrades on the Sarge, save the points for more extra units.

The ADL can be taken solo for 50 points, adding a gun emplacement cost extra, if you would add the Quad Gun for 50 points the total will be 100 points.
The only 2 guns available are the Icarus Lascannon and the Quad Gun, the Comms Relay lets you re-roll reserve rolls, can be helpfull for flyers and outflanking units.

1 model in the unit must be in base contact with the Gun Emplacement to be able to fire it. You could take 1 extra marine for 16 points or let the Sarge man the Gun at BS 5

if your using FW, maybe look at that one character from IA10 from the star phantoms. He makes vanilla devastators scouring and can add +1 to the damage chart on rolls (stacking with AP)


So, you can either put him in a lascannon devastator squad, or go all out and put him in a melta sternguard droppod squad.

+3 On the damage chart FTW

Pretty much all my sergeants regardless of unit run with vanilla bolters.

You could try using your cool dude in a unit of veterans/sternguard, or just use him as an extra librarian.

Not very helpful, I imagine.

 Tiger9gamer wrote:
if your using FW, maybe look at that one character from IA10 from the star phantoms. He makes vanilla devastators scouring and can add +1 to the damage chart on rolls (stacking with AP)


So, you can either put him in a lascannon devastator squad, or go all out and put him in a melta sternguard droppod squad.

+3 On the damage chart FTW

He doesn't make them scoring, he makes them heavy and elite. So you can take 6 heavies as long as 3 are devs in a single foc.

Dev sarges just need bolters. Not worth the points to give them anything else, IMHO.

Your combi/axe sarge sounds like he wants to take half a tactical squad forward in a razorback. Possibly acting as an ad-hoc command squad for a HQ in power armor. Make sure the squad has a plasma gun, and whatever heavy you feel like leaving behind.

As for survivability, cover or an ADL will help. Or by giving your opponent better things to be shooting at.

To be honest, your Sarge is fine. The points your spending are they same as if you were buying a fist. If you really want to save some points, drop a couple of vannilla marines and run your squad 7 man strong. That is saving you 48pts there, you just have to place your bolters very carefully and don't leave alot of room behind you or along the side of the board for DSers/Outflankers. I also agree that you need to either get a second squad of Devs or keep your 10 man squad and combat squad them with 2 bolters and 2 MLs per squad, splitting your Sarge and the last bolter as you see fit. One thing 40k has taught me is reduncancy wins because it means something lives long enough to do the job it was ment to do.

I don't see where shaving 25pts from your Devs is really that big of a deal. Sure, most run lean to keep it cheap and that is fine. But spending points for what you mentioned is perfectly rational as well, specially if they draw alot of attention.

Thanks to everyone. I'll think carefully before I post a solution. I've already committed to running with 2 Tfire Cannons and the 1 Dev squad for the next game and I'll meditate on this all when my thought process slows down enough in the next few days.

With two thunderfire cannons being able to deal with infantry and heavy infantry alike, Id personally go for Lascannons on the dev squad, or missile launchers if you want a smidge of versatility.

 Afrodactyl wrote:
With two thunderfire cannons being able to deal with infantry and heavy infantry alike, Id personally go for Lascannons on the dev squad, or missile launchers if you want a smidge of versatility.

He has stated he is running 4 MLs for the flexibility.

Best solution:

Drop the sergeant's upgrades entirely. The sergeant gets the quad gun, so his other weapons don't matter.

Drop the extra meatshield marines and use the points to bring a second devastator squad. Once you remove the sergeant's upgrades your not all that far from getting an entire second unit of ML devs, and two full units of guns is better than one unit of guns with extra wound counters.

 Peregrine wrote:
Best solution:

Drop the sergeant's upgrades entirely. The sergeant gets the quad gun, so his other weapons don't matter.

Drop the extra meatshield marines and use the points to bring a second devastator squad. Once you remove the sergeant's upgrades your not all that far from getting an entire second unit of ML devs, and two full units of guns is better than one unit of guns with extra wound counters.

Better than best, keep 1 extra bolter marine to man the quad gun that way your sergeant is free to use his ability to boosting one of you ml's to bs5.

I run a single dev squad in most lists and here's how it goes:

10 man split into combat squads
4 missile launchers (2 in each combat squad)
combi flamer for the sgt.
Aegis with Icarus las cannon

Sgt sits on the Icarus, the other 5-man team wherever you can get into good cover. Combi-flamer is saved for overwatch. All in all its fairly cheap for what it can do.

Also, if your running Dark Angels you can upgrade the missiles to flakk for more AA cover.

My $0.02, although I don't come from a particularly competitive gaming group (which is probably why I have so much experience running Devs in the first place):

- Drop the wargear on the sergeant. If it comes down to it, your squad is probably already in deep doo-doo once he needs to use it.

- Consider switching one ML out for a lascannon. It makes that one BS5 shot worth a little more when it hits.

- Combat squadding can be good, but I prefer to concentrate my fire, and my meatshields, in one unit. More bodies to go through before they start removing your heavies. The size of my dev squad varies list to list because I consider adding extra meatshields a high priority way to spend extra points at the end.

I also have a friend who runs a 7-8 man dev squad with 4 lascannons. It's expensive and it's a high priority target but it tends to absolutely shred heavy armor and he gets good use out of them. Just something else to consider, I don't see many people touting it.

Are you allowed to use the sarge's Signum to let one of the other squad members fire the quadgun or icarus at BS5 (preferably a member just wielding a bolter)?

 Bonesnapper wrote:
Are you allowed to use the sarge's Signum to let one of the other squad members fire the quadgun or icarus at BS5 (preferably a member just wielding a bolter)?

LOL That was my first thought as well. I doubt it. (I suppose it takes too long to interface the Signum with the quad gun). Then again...only the wording matters:

Codex Space Marines: " A model can use a signum in lieu of making a shooting attack of his own. If he does so, one model in his squad is Ballistic skill 5 for the remainder of the shooting phase."

I call yes, it can happen.
I guess the targeting telemetry bypasses the quad gun and goes directly to the operating troopers' helmet HUD.

RAW yes the signum works on the quad gun. The signum makes any marine in the squad bs5 so you can nominate the marine manning the quad gun. It also might be a good way to use the icarus lascannon if you want to go that route.

I run a lot of scouts and/or bikes as troops, so have used my Dev Sqds to just get power armor on the board... I take the full squads, (typically 1w 2xPC/2xHB & 1w 4x ML, both with Rhinos & /a Sgt with combI-flamer, bombs & pwr wpn,) Forget about the stupid signum, combat squad the Sarge w/Bolter guys, jump in the Rhino and charge forward or go tank hunting, or even take objectives in a few scenarios now days depending what you roll for! Fits the fluff of my army and isn't a total waste? Other wise it's ADL w/signum Sgt lending BS to quad gunner, no upgrades, etc, etc... (btw, "Telion" is good for that also but BS6 plus he can call his shots!) Guess, as usual, kinda depends what you plan to use them for?

Smoketreader wrote:

 Bonesnapper wrote:
Are you allowed to use the sarge's Signum to let one of the other squad members fire the quadgun or icarus at BS5 (preferably a member just wielding a bolter)?

LOL That was my first thought as well. I doubt it. (I suppose it takes too long to interface the Signum with the quad gun). Then again...only the wording matters:

Codex Space Marines: " A model can use a signum in lieu of making a shooting attack of his own. If he does so, one model in his squad is Ballistic skill 5 for the remainder of the shooting phase."

I call yes, it can happen.
I guess the targeting telemetry bypasses the quad gun and goes directly to the operating troopers' helmet HUD.

The problem is the Intercept would be BS 4 because it is not your normal shooting phase, and the Sergeant does this in lue of shooting. Also if you use Intercept, you forgo your next turn shooting, so you might have to wait awhile before you can make your trooper BS 5, unless you don't take the Intercept shot.

Back to topic, I am about to try a dev-squad with four HBs, just because they look so awesome. I'm not sure how they will fare though.

 Bonesnapper wrote:
Back to topic, I am about to try a dev-squad with four HBs, just because they look so awesome. I'm not sure how they will fare though.

They will do alright, because all you can target is Infantry and HBs are great against them once they are in range. What you will find is that you can't hurt 95% of the vehicles and high toughness MCs you will normally face.

I honestly could see a C:SM player running 3 Dev squads and having one of them be all HB, and the other two be all ML or LC. 12 HB shots a turn, 3 of them at BS 5, all str 5... you will probably put down terminators with that volume of fire, as they are going to probably roll some 1s from that. Necrons are going to hate you, as will Orcs and Nids... well, the non T6+ stuff at least. Will tear up most foot lists. So yeah, they will do fine against the targets they are ment to fire on. After that, hope you get a AV 10 shot here and there if someone gives you thier arse. But you have to look at that and then wonder if a Vindicator is better for that role, or MLs because they can do Frag or Krak... or even all lascannons where barring cover/invuln saves and rolling 1s to wound, what your hitting is probably going to die.

 BlkTom wrote:

 Bonesnapper wrote:
Back to topic, I am about to try a dev-squad with four HBs, just because they look so awesome. I'm not sure how they will fare though.

They will do alright, because all you can target is Infantry and HBs are great against them once they are in range. What you will find is that you can't hurt 95% of the vehicles and high toughness MCs you will normally face.

I honestly could see a C:SM player running 3 Dev squads and having one of them be all HB, and the other two be all ML or LC. 12 HB shots a turn, 3 of them at BS 5, all str 5... you will probably put down terminators with that volume of fire, as they are going to probably roll some 1s from that. Necrons are going to hate you, as will Orcs and Nids... well, the non T6+ stuff at least. Will tear up most foot lists. So yeah, they will do fine against the targets they are ment to fire on. After that, hope you get a AV 10 shot here and there if someone gives you thier arse. But you have to look at that and then wonder if a Vindicator is better for that role, or MLs because they can do Frag or Krak... or even all lascannons where barring cover/invuln saves and rolling 1s to wound, what your hitting is probably going to die.

At one point I was looking at a denied flank deployment list (on the corner of the board) with lots of Tacs and HB sentry guns as HS. Each gun (FW-IA1 or IA2 5th ed)) is only BS2 but is only 15pts with the HB and each one gun counts as a seperate target dishing out 9x3 shots potentially in total. This was for fighting against Firebase charging armies such as BA. but only good for small lists where the Stormraven couldnt be taken. Deathstorm drop pods were included (on paper) to deep strike behind the enemy sortie at 75 pts each but these are more HS choices which made the formation unviable.

In the list I mentioned I have a double FOC and sport three vindis and two stormtalons with Las-cannons. There are also four Tac-squads with las- or plasmacannons. I feel I can handle high AV and let the devs tag along for sheer coolness.

Yeah, at those point levels or using FW stuff I am sure your fine. But I base my advice off of the idea your playing a 1500-1850pt list that is possible in a tourney. I don't know FW stuff because till it is in the base game (and thus standard) I don't care about it... it is for friendly games at best and only if your buddy wants to deal with it or is using FW stuff himself. Apoc games are in a totally different league of thinking as well as targets you can be facing. I know at the places around me, Titians and thier ilk are not unheard of... I just don't play those because I do not care to. Sometimes it is hard enough to make sure people have the /base/ rules down, much less Apoc or FW rules as well.

 BlkTom wrote:
The problem is the Intercept would be BS 4 because it is not your normal shooting phase, and the Sergeant does this in lue of shooting. Also if you use Intercept, you forgo your next turn shooting, so you might have to wait awhile before you can make your trooper BS 5, unless you don't take the Intercept shot.

The other problem is that TL BS 4 is already a 90% chance to hit, so adding BS 5 isn't really making much of a difference. The only reason to bring an extra model to use the quad gun is so that the sergeant can give BS 5 to one of the heavy weapons (since if he does he can't fire the quad gun).

 BlkTom wrote:
I don't know FW stuff because till it is in the base game (and thus standard) I don't care about it

It is part of the base game.

Also, you seem to be confusing "FW rules" with "FW Apocalypse rules". Titans and other similar units are Apocalypse-only and always have been, and are entirely separate from the standard-40k units FW publishes (for example, the sentry guns Smoketreader mentioned).

Funny, I don't have 'Sentry Guns' in my Codex or BRB. Guess it is not in the base game. FW stuff, Apoc or not, is optional add-ons to the base game. You show up at Adepticon or some other big tourney with FW stuff using FW rules in your list and your not playing, much less most standard tourneys and even friendly games. Most of my friends consider FW stuff a bunch of chesse because it is not properly balanced to the base game and thus will not use it and don't want to play against it. FW is more or less an open beta for future versions of the game to try out rules and models. Some things make it in, some do not.

But to say it is part of the base game... you sir, are full of it.

I would drop the extra guys and the upgrades, make a second squad, but an aegis. Split the aegis across the board so you can have a dev squad on either flank behind an aegis, if you have the points bring in a quad gun and either use the sarge for it, or get another bolter marine.

Eldercaveman wrote:
I would drop the extra guys and the upgrades, make a second squad, but an aegis. Split the aegis across the board so you can have a dev squad on either flank behind an aegis, if you have the points bring in a quad gun and either use the sarge for it, or get another bolter marine.

Splitting the ADL is a brilliant idea that didn't even cross my mind even tho it's being done right in front of me at times. I have to thank you for that.

Creating two DEV squads is something I definitely want to do for this army someday. It was part of the original vision forgotten so many years ago. Right now I'm getting very serious about a vindicator getting squeezed in but I think it's for a sense of security.

Against Chaos: If it gets in, I'll be able to blast open a direct-straight-line road to the enemy objective but once the Bloodthirster and Daemon Prince arrive I'll have to run one Tac squad to the enemy objective, keep one more Tac squad on my own objective and throw everything else at the monsters to buy time until endgame, unless the interceptor gun manages to take out one of the two monsters as they arrive and fly over to me....
The Chaos Lord and his Berserkers, I don't fear- I suspect I can bust open the Rhino with the demolisher fast and then subterranean charge TFire and maybe also harass with speeders until they are all brought down. In theory this will leave me with no enemy scoring units in my deployment zone for a game or two until the chaos opponent adjusts by deep striking oblits into new flanking positions.

Against Tau/SM allies I might leave the Vindie out and try to field a permanent second DEV squad.

Smoketreader wrote:
Splitting the ADL is a brilliant idea that didn't even cross my mind even tho it's being done right in front of me at times. I have to thank you for that.

Splitting it is a brilliant idea, but it isn't legal anymore. One of the recent FAQs changed it to require that all sections form an unbroken chain. The only way to have two separate aegis lines is to play a 2000+ point game and take a second fortification.

 BlkTom wrote:
Funny, I don't have 'Sentry Guns' in my Codex or BRB. Guess it is not in the base game. FW stuff, Apoc or not, is optional add-ons to the base game.

False. According to GW the main rulebook and codices are not the only sources of rules for standard 40k. You are free to create your own "codex only" version of 40k, but the standard version of 40k as published by GW includes FW rules.

And, more importantly, the OP said very clearly that they're playing with a FW character, so they aren't using any kind of "codex only" house rule.

You show up at Adepticon or some other big tourney with FW stuff using FW rules in your list and your not playing, much less most standard tourneys and even friendly games.

So what? Adepticon is a third-party event run by people who are not part of GW. Why should anyone who isn't playing in Adepticon care what house rules they choose to use for their event?

Most of my friends consider FW stuff a bunch of chesse because it is not properly balanced to the base game and thus will not use it and don't want to play against it.

That's nice. Most of my friends consider the Necron codex a bunch of cheese because it is not properly balanced to the base game.

PS: we're talking about heavy bolter sentry guns here, which are far from "cheese".

FW is more or less an open beta for future versions of the game to try out rules and models. Some things make it in, some do not.

Not according to GW. FW does publish clearly labeled "experimental" rules occasionally and accept feedback on them, but the majority of their rules are final and part of standard 40k.

 Peregrine wrote:

Smoketreader wrote:
Splitting the ADL is a brilliant idea that didn't even cross my mind even tho it's being done right in front of me at times. I have to thank you for that.

Splitting it is a brilliant idea, but it isn't legal anymore. One of the recent FAQs changed it to require that all sections form an unbroken chain. The only way to have two separate aegis lines is to play a 2000+ point game and take a second fortification.

Yeah, Peregrine is right one that one, hadn't spotted the FAQ before, mostly because I don't ever use Aegis Lines myself, so never really looked. Here it is to save you scrolling through the FAQ's.

Q: Can you deploy the Aegis Defence Line sections in two or
more groups of two or more sections apiece (this way, they will
still be in base contact with at least one other section)? (p114)
A: No – the Aegis defence line sections must be deployed
in an unbroken chain, though they can be connected endto-end such as in the example shown on page 114.

However I would still buy one for a unit to go behind, and have a second unit in some ruins with a vantage point.