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it is hit on a 6, the same as this Arc...

 IHateNids wrote:
it is hit on a 6, the same as this Arc...

Hitting on a 6 does not make it a snap shot.

All Snap Shots hit on a 6. All hits on a 6 are not Snap Shots.

i know that. But, since neither are actually 'shots', I fail to see how Hard to Hit affects them at all...

 IHateNids wrote:
i know that. But, since neither are actually 'shots', I fail to see how Hard to Hit affects them at all...

Because they don't roll to hit.
And the FAQ specifically forbids attacks that don't roll to hit from affecting a Flyer.

copper.talos wrote:
Arc's wording "Once the tesla destructor’s initial shot has been resolved..." So when it's time to roll for the arcs the snap shot of the destructor has already been resolved.

Note the use of the word initial in that statement. It doesn't say once all of the tesla shots have been resolved, just the first one. There are 3 others, not to mention ancillary effects like tesla and arc to resolve too.

 Neorealist wrote:

copper.talos wrote:
Arc's wording "Once the tesla destructor’s initial shot has been resolved..." So when it's time to roll for the arcs the snap shot of the destructor has already been resolved.

Note the use of the word initial in that statement. It doesn't say once all of the tesla shots have been resolved, just the first one. There are 3 others, not to mention ancillary effects like tesla and arc to resolve too.

No, there's one shot consisting of 4 rolls to hit, and then the Arcing.

rigeld2 wrote:

 IHateNids wrote:
i know that. But, since neither are actually 'shots', I fail to see how Hard to Hit affects them at all...

Because they don't roll to hit.
And the FAQ specifically forbids attacks that don't roll to hit from affecting a Flyer.

they do roll to hit, that hit is on a 6.

And I know that isnt a snapshot...

rigeld2 wrote:No, there's one shot consisting of 4 rolls to hit, and then the Arcing.

The arcing is as much an effect of those shots and that weapon as any other weapon-based USR would be.

 Mannahnin wrote:

 Kevin949 wrote:

 Mannahnin wrote:
If you would kindly refrain from mixing your own answers in with GW's, it might help prevent confusion.

FAQ wrote:Q: How do maelstroms, novas and beams – or indeed any weapon that doesn’t need to roll To Hit or hits automatically – interact with Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures? (p13)
A: Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures. Therefore, any attacks that use blast markers, templates, create a line of/area of effect or otherwise don’t roll to hit cannot target them. This includes weapons such as the Necron Doom Scythe’s death ray or the Deathstrike missile of the Imperial Guard, and psychic powers that follow the rule for maelstroms, beams, and novas.

The bit in yellow is the part which prevents Tesla arcs from bouncing onto a Zooming Flyer or Swooping FMC.

That part of the FAQ is only referencing Weapons that don't need to roll to hit, these are not weapons but are special rules that are in question.

No, that's not the case. Maelstroms, novas and beams are not weapons either, yet they too are included in this ruling. Tesla Arcing is an effect which causes hits, and thus it falls under the ruling I've quoted above and the sentence highlighted in yellow.

 Kevin949 wrote:
Otherwise if only snap shots could hit flyers and FMC then they could never be the target of beneficial abilities as well.

Not at all. Because the ruling above forbids "hits", and it forbids them from being targeted by "attacks that use blast markers, templates, create a line of/area of effect or otherwise don’t roll to hit". Neither of which describes any beneficial effects that I can think of.

Your first assertion is incorrect, all of those types of powers are "Witchfire" powers and are thus considered assault weapons (unless noted otherwise).

Technically, the rule forbids targeting them and that would include beneficial maelstrom's and other abilities that require targeting. The Arc rule does not "Target".

 IHateNids wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 IHateNids wrote:
i know that. But, since neither are actually 'shots', I fail to see how Hard to Hit affects them at all...

Because they don't roll to hit.
And the FAQ specifically forbids attacks that don't roll to hit from affecting a Flyer.

they do roll to hit, that hit is on a 6.

They generate hits on a 6. They do not roll to hit using BS1 (which is what a snapshot is)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Neorealist wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:No, there's one shot consisting of 4 rolls to hit, and then the Arcing.

The arcing is as much an effect of those shots and that weapon as any other weapon-based USR would be.

I don't disagree.

But it generates hits that do not roll to hit. The FAQ specifically forbids those things from hitting.

The additional hits themselves 'are' generated by shots that 'do' roll to hit.

As i've already stated: they are not a seperate weapon, instance, or whatever you wish to describe it such that they are independant of the fired shots of Tesla Destructor weapon.

Just because the initial shot(s) can split into 3 and then arc to every nearby unit, does not mean the initial shot was not a perfectly valid snap-shot, nor that any hits generated by said snapshot are suddenly illegally targetting anything.

 Neorealist wrote:
The additional hits themselves 'are' generated by shots that 'do' roll to hit.

So Tesla weapons always Arc - as in they will always generate hits?

As i've already stated: they are not a seperate weapon, instance, or whatever you wish to describe it such that they are independant of the fired shots of Tesla Destructor weapon.

I haven't asserted that they are.

Just because the initial shot(s) can split into 3 and then arc to every nearby unit, does not mean the initial shot was not a perfectly valid snap-shot, nor that any hits generated by said snapshot are suddenly illegally targetting anything.

Do Arcs roll to hit?

 Happyjew wrote:

tgf wrote:
Imo's lightning does hit as far as everyone knows. I don't believe there has been an FAQ prohibiting it.

Does it roll to hit? Does it have an area of effect?

Before you can ask that question you first have to answer is it a shooting attack? Nope. Hard to hit only applies to shooting attacks.

tgf wrote:
Hard to hit only applies to shooting attacks.

The FAQ proves that statement incorrect.

rigeld2 wrote:

tgf wrote:
Hard to hit only applies to shooting attacks.

The FAQ proves that statement incorrect.

If you believe this than a flyer can not be targeted by blessings or maledictions, nor can it gain any benifit from something like an aoe friendly coversave or banner.

rigeld2 wrote:Do Arcs roll to hit?

Yup, Tesla Destructor shots 'always' roll to hit. (hint: the Arc is not an independant effect)

 Neorealist wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:Do Arcs roll to hit?

Yup, Tesla Destructor shots 'always' roll to hit. (hint: the Arc is not an independant effect)

So they aren't attacks?
The TD's shots are 100% resolved before Arcing. Therefore the roll to hit for the TD shots has nothing to do with the Arc.

rigeld2 wrote:The TD's shots are 100% resolved before Arcing. Therefore the roll to hit for the TD shots has nothing to do with the Arc.

That is some wonderfully specious reasoning. Would you like to indicate why you believe the Tesla Destructor shots are/can be resolved before the USRs you apply to them are?

What you are saying is akin to trying to resolve a Multi-melta guns' shot before applying the 'Melta' effect to it.

 Neorealist wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:The TD's shots are 100% resolved before Arcing. Therefore the roll to hit for the TD shots has nothing to do with the Arc.

That is some wonderfully specious reasoning. Would you like to indicate why you believe the Tesla Destructor shots are/can be resolved before the USRs you apply to them are?

"Once the tesla destructor's initial shot has been resolved, roll a D6 ..."
Page 82 C: Necron

So by using the rules I've shown that the initial shot (IE the Assault 4 Tesla) must be resolved before resolving the Arc.

What you are saying is akin to trying to resolve a Multi-melta guns' shot before applying the 'Melta' effect to it.

No, that's not what I'm saying. Please don't pretend that Arc has any rules similarity to other SRs weapons have. I'm not aware of any others that say to resolve the initial shot before resolving the SR.

The biggest reason is because if the unit you shot at is destroyed then there is no arc effect allowed.

Q: Do you roll for a tesla destructor’s Arc special rule if the unit it
shot at was wiped out by the shooting attack? (p82)
A: No, as there is no unit to measure range from.

This arguement has become very circular. My vote, and the way we play it is effects, that are not shooting attacks like Venful Tornado, Imotek's Lightning, Tesla Arc, Blessing, Maledictions, KFF's, Banners, and all other types of things do affect flyers. There really isn't anything in the rules to suggest these things shouldn't even with the FAQs which all refer to shooting attacks.

tgf wrote:
This arguement has become very circular. My vote, and the way we play it is effects, that are not shooting attacks like Venful Tornado, Imotek's Lightning, Tesla Arc, Blessing, Maledictions, KFF's, Banners, and all other types of things do affect flyers. There really isn't anything in the rules to suggest these things shouldn't even with the FAQs which all refer to shooting attacks.

Except of course for the FAQ that doesn't refer to shooting attacks - it refers to all attacks.
It's a fine house rule though.

tgf wrote:
Imo's lightning does hit as far as everyone knows. I don't believe there has been an FAQ prohibiting it.

TGF, I thijnk I've quoted it a dozen times now. I thought the same way you did until someone pointed it out to me and we went over the FAQ in detail. Imotekh’s Lightning a) Causes “hits”, and b) Does not roll Snap Shots to hit, and so it falls in the category of things that cannot hit ZF/SFMCs. Despite it also needing to roll 6s, so being cosmetically similar, it’s not Snap Shooting, so the FAQ ruling that “Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creates” rules it out.

 Neorealist wrote:

Mannahnin wrote: Snap Shots are shots which are fired at a BS of 1 due to specific restrictions.

Arc hits are not shots in any sense. Much less snap shots. They are hits generated by another means. All of which are expressly, comprehensively forbidden by that FAQ answer.

Alrighty then. 2 questions this time:
1) What specific definition of 'shots' are you using for the quoted statement?
2) I do not believe you've addressed my contention that the Arc USR is explicitly an effect of the Tesla Destructor weapon and 'its' shots; not a seperate attack.

1. I’m using the same usage the rulebook uses for “shots” (which are explained on page 50, BTW). Which are individual firing attacks made by a shooting weapon, prior to determining the number of hits caused. For example, the Tesla Destructor has/makes 4 shots, which can potentially cause between 0 and 12 hits. A flamer, OTOH, makes 1 shot, which can hit as many models as are covered by the template. No matter how you slice it, Tesla Destructor Arc hits are not Snap Shots, and thus are forbidden from hitting by the FAQ saying “Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures”.

2. The Arc effect (which is not a USR, BTW, so you might want to stop calling it one) certainly is an effect of the Tesla Destructor. But those hits are not caused by Snap Shots, they’re caused by a mechanism unrelated to and independent of BS and Snap Shooting; namely, rolling a 6 for any unit within 6” of the target. GW has exhaustively belabored the point in their FAQ on ZF/SFMCs that NOTHING gets to hit a flyer which doesn’t roll Snap Shots to hit that flyer. Templates, blasts, lines, beams, novas, maelstroms, things which hit automatically, things which don’t roll to hit, and anything which causes “hit”s but isn't a Snap Shot. Honestly, I don’t think they could possibly be more clear and explicit unless they were to go individually through every codex and every weapon and say “No, that can’t hit them either.”

I think you’re basing your argument on the idea that the Tesla Destructor DOES roll Snap Shots against the unit it’s targeting, and the Arc doesn’t trigger unless the Destructor scores at least one hit, so since the Destructor had to successfully Snap Shoot to get those hits, the Arc hits should qualify the same way the bonus 2 Tesla hits do. But I think that’s mistaken, and the two are fundamentally different. The bonus two Tesla hits are direct products of rolling a 6 to hit on a Snap Shot at that unit you’ve targeted. In order to get them against a ZF/SFMC you had to Skyfire or Snap Shoot, and risk that lowered overall chance to hit with those shots. The Arc hits:

A) Are potentially caused against totally different units, which are not the ones you Snap Shot at.
B) Are caused by a separate mechanism than rolling to hit. If they can hit ZF/SFMCs, it’s going to be on the same 6 they always need. Which is not a Snap Shot and totally unrelated to BS. GW has gone out of their way to say this stuff doesn’t work on ZF/SFMCs. Look at the case of the poor Seeker Missile. DESPITE only being able to be fired if a Marker Light FIRST hits the target, and despite that Marker Light having to Snap Fire in the first place to hit a ZF/SFMC, GW ruled that the Seeker Missile STILL needs to Snap Fire itself, and doesn’t get to hit on a 2+ like it normally does. The Seeker Missile is a clear parallel case; it’s an attack which can only happen dependent on another attack having hit first (like the Arc is dependent on the Destructor having hit before it can trigger), and yet it still can only hit by Snap Firing. Similarly, the Arc effect, which can never Snap Fire itself, is forbidden from hitting because it cannot Snap Fire.

 Kevin949 wrote:

 Mannahnin wrote:

 Kevin949 wrote:

 Mannahnin wrote:

FAQ wrote:Q: How do maelstroms, novas and beams – or indeed any weapon that doesn’t need to roll To Hit or hits automatically – interact with Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures? (p13)
A: Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures. Therefore, any attacks that use blast markers, templates, create a line of/area of effect or otherwise don’t roll to hit cannot target them. This includes weapons such as the Necron Doom Scythe’s death ray or the Deathstrike missile of the Imperial Guard, and psychic powers that follow the rule for maelstroms, beams, and novas.

The bit in yellow is the part which prevents Tesla arcs from bouncing onto a Zooming Flyer or Swooping FMC.

That part of the FAQ is only referencing Weapons that don't need to roll to hit, these are not weapons but are special rules that are in question.

No, that's not the case. Maelstroms, novas and beams are not weapons either, yet they too are included in this ruling. Tesla Arcing is an effect which causes hits, and thus it falls under the ruling I've quoted above and the sentence highlighted in yellow.

 Kevin949 wrote:
Otherwise if only snap shots could hit flyers and FMC then they could never be the target of beneficial abilities as well.

Not at all. Because the ruling above forbids "hits", and it forbids them from being targeted by "attacks that use blast markers, templates, create a line of/area of effect or otherwise don’t roll to hit". Neither of which describes any beneficial effects that I can think of.

Your first assertion is incorrect, all of those types of powers are "Witchfire" powers and are thus considered assault weapons (unless noted otherwise).

You're misremembering the rule. Manifesting a Witchfire counts as firing an Assault weapon, but that doesn't actually make it a weapon. If (for example) a character has a Witchfire power, he can't swap that for something from the Wargear page of his codex which requires swapping a weapon.

 Kevin949 wrote:
Technically, the rule forbids targeting them and that would include beneficial maelstrom's and other abilities that require targeting. The Arc rule does not "Target".

Could you please, please read the FAQ you've quoted me quoting? It doesn't prevent beneficial abilities unless A) They're causing a "hit" on the ZF/SFMC, or B) Those powers are "attacks". Just read it.

 Neorealist wrote:
The additional hits themselves 'are' generated by shots that 'do' roll to hit.

As i've already stated: they are not a seperate weapon, instance, or whatever you wish to describe it such that they are independant of the fired shots of Tesla Destructor weapon.

Just because the initial shot(s) can split into 3 and then arc to every nearby unit, does not mean the initial shot was not a perfectly valid snap-shot, nor that any hits generated by said snapshot are suddenly illegally targetting anything.

The Arc hits are not landed by a Snap Shot, which is a shot restricted to firing at BS1. They're generated AFTER resolution of the Snap Shots (per the Tesla Destructor rules), and are caused on a separate roll of a 6. Not by a Snap Shot. They cause hits if you separately roll a 6, which is not a Snap Shot, so is ruled out by the sentence “Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures”.

tgf wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

tgf wrote:
Hard to hit only applies to shooting attacks.

The FAQ proves that statement incorrect.

If you believe this than a flyer can not be targeted by blessings or maledictions, nor can it gain any benifit from something like an aoe friendly coversave or banner.

Not so. Because Blessings and Maledictions (and cover save banners) do not cause hits, nor are they attacks.

It is worth mentioning that I asked the Indy open TO who is using the nova faq. They are ruling the arc does not affect fliers based on the GW faq. So worth noting if hitting either of those events.

The Onslaught GT a week ago made the same ruling. Neither Tesla Destructor Arcs nor Imotekh's lightning can hit ZF/SFMCs.

Mannahnin, I've read the FAQ and while you're quoting (quite hard) the first sentence, you're neglecting the rest of it that says "and psychic powers that follow the rule for maelstroms, beams, and novas."

Now I offer you this, you say that psychic powers are not weapons and thus all psychic powers listed above are required to follow this rule of not affecting flyers OR psychic powers "are" weapons (since in this FAQ precluding this statement it does say "This includes weapons such as blah, blah, blah, and psychic powers......").

Ugh, sorry, I kinda lost my train of thought here and now I don't remember where I was going with this.

 Kevin949 wrote:
Mannahnin, I've read the FAQ and while you're quoting (quite hard) the first sentence, you're neglecting the rest of it that says "and psychic powers that follow the rule for maelstroms, beams, and novas."

Now I offer you this, you say that psychic powers are not weapons and thus all psychic powers listed above are required to follow this rule of not affecting flyers OR psychic powers "are" weapons (since in this FAQ precluding this statement it does say "This includes weapons such as blah, blah, blah, and psychic powers......").

Ugh, sorry, I kinda lost my train of thought here and now I don't remember where I was going with this.

I hate it when that happens.

 Kevin949 wrote:
Mannahnin, I've read the FAQ and while you're quoting (quite hard) the first sentence, you're neglecting the rest of it that says "and psychic powers that follow the rule for maelstroms, beams, and novas."

Now I offer you this, you say that psychic powers are not weapons and thus all psychic powers listed above are required to follow this rule of not affecting flyers OR psychic powers "are" weapons (since in this FAQ precluding this statement it does say "This includes weapons such as blah, blah, blah, and psychic powers......").

Ugh, sorry, I kinda lost my train of thought here and now I don't remember where I was going with this.

That's because you've had too much to drink. Or not enough. I can never remember how that works...

So only snap shot attacks can hit flyers, is what people are keying on, not the shooting aspect. So you count tornado and lightning, and tesla arc as attacks even though they aren't shooting. Interesting, it is always good to understand how others are approaching the subject.

So a blessing can get a flyer because it is not an attack, but a malediction could not?

tgf wrote:
So only snap shot attacks can hit flyers, is what people are keying on, not the shooting aspect. So you count tornado and lightning, and tesla arc as attacks even though they aren't shooting. Interesting, it is always good to understand how others are approaching the subject.

So a blessing can get a flyer because it is not an attack, but a malediction could not?

No a Malediction could as it does not generate hits.